When Kids Feel Like They’re Not Enough: Imposter Syndrome in Childhood with Dr. Richard Orbé-Austin

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village and today get to hang out with Dr. Richard Orbé- Austin. He's a licensed psychologist, executive coach, and consultant. He works with executives and mid-career professionals to overcome imposter syndrome, identify their best fit career options, and strengthen their leadership skills.

[00:00:21] He also regularly consults with academic institutions, corporations, and nonprofit organizations on issues related to leadership, diversity, equity, and inclusion, and burnout prevention. He has been featured in Forbes, fast Company, thrive Global, a Diversity Executive, the Journal of Multicultural Counseling and Development, in the Handbook of Racial Cultural Counseling and Psychology.

[00:00:45] His new book is out now called Your Child’s Greatness: A Parent's Guide to Raising Children without Impostor Syndrome. He is also a dad to two daughters living in New York City, and we get to talk about the real, real. What does this look like as a parent, as well as a professional. It was such a pleasure to hang out with Rich and get to dive into this 'cause it's something that I sure hope to support my kiddos with tools for navigating imposter syndrome, something so many of us experience. All right folks, let's dive in.

[00:01:26] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:43] Let's dive in together.

[00:01:49] What led you to this book? 

[00:01:51] Richard: So the, the story we often tell is when we've came out with the first book, the, you know, really focusing in on overcoming Impost syndrome. 

[00:02:00] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. So 

[00:02:01] Richard: many people said to us, you really need to write a book about how to help. Us prevent this from happening in our children. 

[00:02:08] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:02:09] Richard: Uh, and so our second book, actually, we already had an idea for a second book by the first time the first book came out, which is, which is to look at imposter syndrome and how it impacts the workplace.

[00:02:19] But then once we did that, we realized now would be time to really write this book, focusing in on how to help parents and caregivers support children and not developing imposter syndrome. 

[00:02:29] Alyssa: Can you break down for folks like what imposter syndrome really is? 

[00:02:34] Richard: Yeah, yeah. This is a, a great and important question because so many people don't really know what it is.

[00:02:41] And so, yeah, imposter syndrome, its actual name is imposter phenomenon. And so it was coined over 40 years ago by these two female psychologists, clan and IMEs, who were working with a group of highly successful women on a college campus in Georgia. So professors, graduate students, and they started to notice this particular trend amongst this group of women that they all talked about being uncomfortable.

[00:03:05] With their success. They felt like they were frauds and so they coined this term imposter phenomenon. Subsequently, it became popularized as imposter syndrome. So the fact of the matter is imposter syndrome is not a clinical disorder or mental health disorder. It's really phenomenon in which people typically highly successful people feel like they are constantly going to be exposed as a fraud.

[00:03:30] They tend to feel like the only way that they can actually be successful is to overwork or to be perfectionistic. They tend to overestimate, you know, the ability of others, underestimate their own abilities, uh, and they always believe that any success they have is attributed to either luck or to a key relationship, someone like them.

[00:03:50] And that's the only reason that they've had any type of. Achievement or success in the world. 

[00:03:57] Alyssa: I feel like so many people listening right now are like, yep, 10 out of 10 can relate. When I started Seed, I remember having a conversation with my friend's grandpa, who's just a very successful man, and he said, just so you know, you're not gonna reach a point where you're like, oh yeah, I know all these things and it makes sense.

[00:04:17] And everyone around me also knows all these things. He's like, everyone's just one day at a time doing, and that for me, starting out was just. I think so. Nice to hear, right? To like kickstart of like, yeah, Alyssa, there isn't a place where you know all the things and you're like, yep, this is definitely the best next move.

[00:04:37] And that it's a lot of the times a guessing game of like, let's try this out. Let's see how this works, et cetera. And I am I, that conversation just like stuck with me so much. So I can't even imagine like all the goodness packed into an entire book about like, how do we raise children without imposter syndrome?

[00:04:54] Thank you, first of all for writing it and I'm excited to, to learn more about it. When we're looking at this for kids, what are some of the like key foundations we wanna look to lay and at what age are we really starting that work? 

[00:05:12] Richard: So when we think about imposter syndrome and we recognize that about 70% of the population will have some level of imposter feelings.

[00:05:19] Mm-hmm. But when we look at its origins, it's typically in early childhood experiences. Sure. And so when we think about one of the key elements of early childhood experiences are the roles that you're given as a young person. So as, as the earliest memory you can have of being your own distinct person, I guess is when you start.

[00:05:37] And so there are three key roles that we talk about that people take up when they have develop Impost syndrome. The first is a smart one. So in the family they've been identified as the, the one that's intellectually gifted. Even though other people in the family may have been just as highly accomplished a academically, they have been deemed the one that is the smart one.

[00:05:59] Mm-hmm. And so they take on this label and when they meet some level of adversity, as we all will. They then start to feel like, well, maybe I'm not as smart as people said that I was. Maybe I'm a fraud because now I got a a D, or I got, you know, heaven forbid a B minus, and so now I'm not as smart as I Sure.

[00:06:18] I really am. So that's the first role, the smart one. 

[00:06:21] Alyssa: Yeah. And contrast really quickly makes so much sense. Even along the lines of like, oh, I'm, people are acting like I'm supposed to know this thing and I don't know it. So maybe now I don't ask questions or raise my hand Yes. Or say, mm-hmm I don't know this because I think I'm supposed to know this.

[00:06:38] Richard: Right. And so I'm all about protecting my role as a smart one. Yeah. Right. I don't want to be exposed as not knowing because I'm supposed to be the smart one. 

[00:06:47] Alyssa: Yeah, that makes sense. So 

[00:06:48] Richard: that's that. Yeah. So that's one powerful role. The other role in contrast is a hardworking one. I. So you were identified as a person that may not be as intellectually gifted, even though your grades may have been as comparable to the individual who was deemed the smart one, you were told you are more socially adept.

[00:07:05] You may be not as smart, so you need to work hard. Mm-hmm. And so you've learned that the only way you can be successful is to really work hard. And oftentimes, unfortunately, that hard work develops into overwork. Mm-hmm. Where you feel like the only way that you can prove yourself is to overwork, which can lead to burnout or other types of challenges.

[00:07:24] And then the last role we talk about is the role of the survivor. So someone who wasn't given any particular role as a smart one or a hardworking one, but someone who just was trying to, through neglect, unfortunately, just trying to survive. Mm-hmm. So they never really learned where their place is in the world, and so they're always just trying to keep their head above border.

[00:07:45] Those are the three primary roles that we talk about when we talk about some of the early childhood experiences that contribute to imposter syndrome. 

[00:07:51] Alyssa: I'm sitting here, I'm one of five kids, I have four brothers, and as you're describing them, I'm like, what are the other roles one could fill? Like I can tell you who the smart one was, right.

[00:08:03] In my family, I can tell you the, I feel like we had a couple that were like, these are the smart ones and a couple that were the hardworking ones. Mm-hmm. What even, what other roles even exist, rich. 

[00:08:12] Richard: Right, right. Exactly. Exactly. That's what we know. Right? So that's what we know. And that has been the challenge because I think we're, we try to teach parents and to help them teach their children, or they can have both roles, right?

[00:08:25] They don't have to have one fixed role. They can be smart and hardworking ultimately, and so, and that's fine. Rather than feeling like they need to just stay in one particular lane, which then makes them feel like if they don't meet the expectations of that role, somehow or another, they're were fraud.

[00:08:40] Alyssa: Yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it. So it's really just making sure we don't pigeonhole them into mm-hmm. Into one of these. Right, right. Okay. And starting in early childhood, I mean, my master's is early childhood. The folks tuning in are really, uh, into early ed and Right. We talk about early ed as a foundation all the time for so many things.

[00:09:02] Thank you for that validation of like, this starts in early ed. Yes. As most things do when we are supporting our kids in helping them not have that imposter syndrome. Say you have a kid who is afraid to make mistakes or has a harder time saying like, I don't know the answer. Or, um, I, I, I've noticed in some of our work with especially connection seeking kids, where like they're really driven by connection.

[00:09:29] That the idea of saying like, I don't know the rules to that game, or, I don't know this answer. It seems like there's a fear of losing connection with that person, that like, that person won't wanna play with me or, right. So along those lines, I, I'm wondering if there are, I guess, like trends that you see and things that we can do to support not having the imposter syndrome?

[00:09:54] Richard: Yeah. I think one of the most powerful things you can do is to really model what it means to not know, right? Because as parents, as caregivers, we feel like, okay, if our child asks us a particular question, we should have that particular answer. And if we're saying to them, it's all right to not know, it's all right to make mistakes and you don't wanna beat yourself up, then we first and foremost need to be able to demonstrate that in our own lives.

[00:10:19] Because kids are always observing. They may silently be taking notes and not tell us, but if we tell them one thing, but behave in another opposite way, that's what they're going to actually follow. So that's one. And then two, when they do have those experiences where they don't know or they do have those experiences where they make a mistake.

[00:10:37] Really being able to have a conversation with them about their feelings about it, what they're afraid to lose. To your point of connection, is it status, is it a particular, again, role in, in the friend group or in the classroom and and really helping them to normalize making mistakes and not having answers.

[00:10:56] Alyssa: Yeah. Rad. When you see this as it like continues to evolve, you have teenagers at home, I'm sure you've seen the evolution over the years of like how this shows up in little ways when they're younger and then that evolution as they get older. What are things that we're looking at? I feel like the middle childhood years, we often leave off the table that like, I think we're sold this myth of like the.

[00:11:19] Early years are really tough and physical and exhausting. And the teenage years are really tough in emotional ways. And then there's this glorious middle childhood time where everything's easy. And we know that's not true. Um, but when we're looking at specifically those like middle childhood years, how does it evolve?

[00:11:37] What are some things that might pop up that might kind of clue us into, oh, like this kid's experiencing imposter syndrome or the foundations for that are, are being laid. What are some things we might notice? 

[00:11:48] Richard: So one of the things that we oftentimes talk about is this notion of automatic negative thoughts that people may experience.

[00:11:55] And some of those automatic negative thoughts may be something like labeling. If you hear the child say, oh, I'm so stupid. I can't believe I did that. Or, you know, I'm an idiot. Like, why did I do that? Or mind reading, if they say, well, everyone in in the classroom thinks I'm stupid or I don't know what I'm doing.

[00:12:11] Yeah. Or the teacher doesn't think that I'm that bright. And so observing whether or not having these automatic negative thoughts and, and the nature of them. Whether it's mind reading, whether it's fortune telling, if I raise my hand, I'm gonna say something stupid or, or people will laugh at me. That's another, you know, frequent, automatic, negative thought that, you know, children may have.

[00:12:30] So being able to recognize that is one thing. And then the other thing is, if they start to take less risks and just being out there in the world, because I oftentimes talk about there's freedom when you're just a child, you don't know what you don't know, so you're just out and about exploring the world, being able to appreciate it without any judgment.

[00:12:49] But then once you start to understand that you're being judged, you may then start to again, in order to preserve your status, take less risk because you don't wanna lose a particular level of status. Sure. If you notice that. I think that's another piece of the puzzle to really understand what they may be experiencing related to possible imposter syndrome.

[00:13:10] Alyssa: And so then how do you respond? Like if you do notice that your kid's like, I'm so stupid, or the whole class is gonna, they're doing that kind of like, I liked how you said fortune telling like piece, how do we respond to that in a way that's supportive? 'cause obviously inside I'm like, you're not stupid.

[00:13:24] Right? But I'm sure that never in the history of like, you don't have to be scared. Has someone been like, oh great, now I don't feel scared. Thank you so much. And so I'm sure, I'm sure that applies here of like as somebody is feeling that way, insider is nervous about that. Me saying like, you're not stupid, you're so great.

[00:13:42] Probably isn't helpful. What else can I do in the moment? 

[00:13:45] Richard: Yeah, I think you want to help them to think about, well, where's the data support what they are saying first and foremost, right? Like, what is the evidence that people might think you're stupid? What's another way to interpret the particular experience that you're having?

[00:13:58] How do you replace it with a positive statement? One of the most powerful experiences I, we've had with our children, both of them are competitive fencers. Uh, cool. And my oldest started first, and I remember she was super nervous, you know, the first time she competed. And one of the things she said to me is, if, to both of us, my wife and I, I was like, what happens if I lose all my ballots?

[00:14:18] Right? I, if I lose all my ballots. I just, and, and we went through the process with her and said, well, what do you think will happen? Do you think we will stop caring about you? Do you think we'll stop loving you? And she's like, no. Like, well, what else do you think will happen? She's like, well, I don't know.

[00:14:30] It's like, part of the process is being able to learn from it. It's not necessarily about you just losing all your bouts, it's what happened in those particular bouts that you could learn from to really be able to be successful the next time around. 

[00:14:45] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:14:46] Richard: Uh, and in the past she would not talk to us about what she was experiencing, but, but that just.

[00:14:53] That particular moment made us realize, again, she had some of these automatic negative thoughts that we needed to Sure. Be more mindful of and have conversations and be curious about what her inner experience is. And so I think that's one of the most. Powerful things that, you know, we can do is to be curious about what our kids' experiences might be, rather than assuming that we know.

[00:15:14] Alyssa: I love that. So the first part is like helping them kind of get down and dirty with like, kind of what data do you have to support that? Like what, what lead you to like really believe that about yourself. Mm-hmm. Um, and then the second part, remind me what that was. 'cause the third one was the replacement.

[00:15:31] The second one was, 

[00:15:32] Richard: so the, the second one is really helping them to recognize that in the worst case scenario, like what might happen Yes. In that, you know, case. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. That forecasting of like, could I survive 

[00:15:44] Alyssa: that worst case scenario. 

[00:15:45] Richard: Right. Exactly. 

[00:15:46] Alyssa: Okay, cool. Um, I, this reminds me, we were, I was having a conversation with a fourth grader recently and she is so nervous about.

[00:15:56] Feeling embarrassed at school is like the root. Mm. And so she won't raise her hand and answer questions she hates when she's gonna get called on about something, or if they're doing something and she's gonna have to like read something aloud or whatever. And she has the skillset to do it. She's so nervous, she's going to do it wrong.

[00:16:12] Or somebody's gonna make fun of her and she's gonna feel embarrassed. And I'm like, Ooh, this thought process this. Like, she popped into my head and I was like, I wanna like go through this with her of like mm-hmm. When we were diving into it, she, one of the things that came up when we were chatting was the idea that other people also feel embarrassed.

[00:16:32] And she was like, she was like, no, Sasha does not feel embarrassed. And she's like, I am fully convinced that girl does not feel this and has no idea what this is like. And as we like, dove into it, and she realized that embarrassment was something she could survive and what would the experience be like and that for her.

[00:16:54] Was like a shift where she got to the place where there was a part of her that knew even if my worst possible scenario happens, I can survive that. Mm-hmm. And that's what I'm hearing here is like that through line is helping them get to that place so that they know. Yep. What if I do make a mistake?

[00:17:14] What if my answer is wrong? What if I'm actually not as smart as everybody thinks I am? Is that something I can survive? 

[00:17:22] Richard: Yeah. I mean, I, I think that's just a powerful intervention that you, you know, were able to process with her because that is the fear. Right. And one of the things that we realize when we talk about the fact that so many people with Impost syndrome suffer in silence because they feel like they're the only ones experiencing it.

[00:17:39] Totally. And so when we say to them that 70%. Of people will experience it, their eyes light up and they're like, that can't be the case because they're like, thank goodness, must be other people. Right. They're like, that means other people around me. Yeah. Have to be experiencing it. Right. But it gives them, again, this sense of connectedness that, okay, I'm not in this by myself.

[00:18:01] Uh, and I think it's a powerful way to really get them to understand how to be able to, to deal with it. 

[00:18:08] Alyssa: And so then when we're seeing kids experiencing these, like is there any point where you step out to outside intervention supports anything additional? Or are you, like, within this book we're gonna give you the tools that you need to be able to have these conversations.

[00:18:26] What if like your daughter, you go to have a conversation with your kid and the kid is not open to chatting and they're like, no, thank you, and they're closed off and those walls are up. How do you navigate that then? 

[00:18:38] Richard: Yeah. And, and this is where we really do want, and I'm glad you asked this question. This is where we do want parents to be open to the fact that there may be a need for outside intervention.

[00:18:48] And so, and the whole book is framed around what we call the three Bs, that ultimately belonging, blooming, and being are the ways to really find your path to preventing children from having Impost syndrome. And, and in that we talk about everything from reducing performance anxiety, coping with failure, being able to, you know, form healthy relationships, really being able to, uh, combat perfectionism.

[00:19:14] So we walk you through the model to really look at some of the ways that you can intervene to really support your child. And at the same time say that if you go through that process and you find that they're still struggling with being able to manage their anxiety or overcome their perfectionism. It may be time if it's impacting their functioning, if they are so anxious that they are having physiological symptoms and they're not able to, to cope, you want to be able to be open to the fact that there are other additional interventions that may be needed that do not reflect you being a failure as a parent.

[00:19:53] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Right. Way about that. Because I 

[00:19:54] Richard: think this is a, this is a challenge that oftentimes there's this immense pressure to feel like, okay, I must as a parent be perfect, and if my child is struggling and I can't help them, somehow or another, I failed. If I then admit that I need outside intervention.

[00:20:10] Alyssa: Yeah. Oh, I love this so much. I. Was recently chatting with my husband about how I don't, I want our kids to have a safe space to turn to process things and that safe space doesn't always have to be us. Mm-hmm. Like I think back to my childhood and there's somebody so pivotal in my childhood who was a safe place that I could turn, especially if it was something I didn't wanna tell my parents or mm-hmm.

[00:20:37] Uh, or it was about my parents, right? Like Right. I had a place where I could turn and process stuff that was in a safe spot and am so grateful for that human. And I think you're right that often when we're looking at parents today, the idea of the village also participating in that capacity. Of meeting those emotional needs and supporting your child in their growth.

[00:21:01] I think there's more acceptance of like, yeah, the village can come drop off groceries or watch my kids, or whatever, but building a relationship where your kid might turn to them and tell them things that they don't tell you, I think it really threatening for mm-hmm. For parents. Uh, and I think sometimes it's a barrier to outside help, whether it is through family, family, the village support or therapy and mm-hmm.

[00:21:25] Supports externally. I, I think that you're right that there's this idea for a lot of parents that we're supposed to be everything for our kids, and rather than us being able to provide all things for our kids through different avenues of support. 

[00:21:43] Richard: Right. Yeah. And I love that. That's, that's the key, right?

[00:21:46] Being able to provide that level of support. You don't have to be everything. And I think it does put a immense amount of pressure on parents when they feel that. To feel like they must be able to do it, and if not, they then beat themselves up and, and at the same time may not get their children the types of supports that they need to really be able to thrive.

[00:22:07] Alyssa: Totally. Yeah. And I, it's, it's a humbling process, this parent thing. Uh, but, but allowing that to be true I, I think is huge. We can't be all things to all humans, and we're gonna make our own mistakes along the way. Mm. You know, I'm like, yeah, I'll pay for your therapy. Uh, you can have at it. Uh, we also joke in our household, it's not like, will they be in therapy?

[00:22:32] It's what are they gonna be in therapy for? Like, what right balls are we gonna drop that they're going to process with somebody else, like great to have at it. Uh, love that. Uh, a I'm curious about a quick glimpse into the adult side of this. We know that imposter syndrome is so deep when we're looking at it.

[00:22:50] Is there a gender difference that we see? You know, we know we live in a patriarchal culture. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I'm wondering, I mean, maybe you're like, n no, we have told boys that they have all this power and they should be so smart and they should be successful. And then they're like, I am not inside. And so maybe that offsets.

[00:23:08] Um, but in my own personal sphere, I feel like I see it so much more with women. 

[00:23:13] Richard: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And this is something that for a long time, initially we would say, no, there's no gender difference. Even though initially it was coined working with a, a group of highly successful women, many of the studies found that there was no gender difference.

[00:23:30] But now we have breaking news. Mm-hmm. And that there was a recent study that came out that really looked at the fact that women seem to experience it, uh, a bit more than men. And, and to your point about the, the patriarchy of society. And men's roles and what their expectations are versus women, what we typically would say is that women tend to experience it and suffer with it more in that they actually, when they're dealing with Impost syndrome, still try to take risks, still try to kind of advance, whereas men would take fewer risks because they would not want to be exposed.

[00:24:07] Sure. And so that would somehow and oftentimes curtail their career advancement because they were not necessarily willing to take that next step up. Sure. Not absolute cases, but that's what the, you know, overall comparison we would take a look at. 

[00:24:22] Alyssa: Yeah, I feel like I see it a lot in like when it comes to finances of men who will be like, oh, can I have a discount on this?

[00:24:30] Or, here's what I charge for my speaking, or whatever. And just very boldly, confidently, here's what it is, and women who are like, here's what it is, but like, if you need a, if that doesn't work in your budget, we can figure something out. Right? Like there's always this Yes. 

[00:24:44] Richard: Yes. Almost 

[00:24:45] Alyssa: like lack of confidence.

[00:24:46] Mm-hmm. Like, here's my worth here is what it, what it costs for me to come. And that's where I feel like I see it show up in my sphere in the business space of men have no problem saying, here's what it costs for me to come and also can I have a discount on your thing? And women are like, oh my gosh, I'll pay full price.

[00:25:04] And do you need a tip? And also you can cut my costs. Right, right. 

[00:25:08] Richard: Yeah. And, and it's, you know, part of it is that women are socialized to really seek approval and connection. Yeah. Whereas men are socialized to really, in essence, to dominate, I can't put it in any other way that they are geared to, you know, kind of claim their particular space.

[00:25:27] Whereas women, unfortunately are socialized to just feel like, we just want you to get along and learn how to connect with people and, you know, make everyone happy. 

[00:25:35] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I, I think that's so interesting. And then interesting to think like when we're parenting and we are socializing and conditioning kids, what cultural narratives already exist that we can kind of account for?

[00:25:49] Mm-hmm. And know that if you're raising these girls, like what are they gonna potentially come up against culturally that we can kind of course correct for, or even bring awareness to them of like, yeah, here's some things you might notice societally people might think that you're not capable of this, or they might push back on X, y, and z and ways that that might kind of fuel inside and fuel that imposter syndrome.

[00:26:13] Richard: Yes, yes. And, and this is something we oftentimes talk about with parents in terms of how to make sure you are talking about gender roles and how they play out in the world and how to support your child and really being able to own their confidence, uh, in a particular way, but also be mindful. Uh, you know, how they're coming across in the world and really being able to connect, but also cooperate with others.

[00:26:39] Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:40] Alyssa: Yeah, I dig it. Uh, I, I have, like I said, four brothers and I, one of the lines in my household, I would say, that's not fair. The boys got to do X, Y, and Z. And my dad would be like, yeah, it's not fair. Like, there are things in life that are not available to you as a girl because it's not safe for you, but it is safe for the boys and that sucks.

[00:27:00] Mm. I'm like, I hate that answer. Like, I, it does suck. 

[00:27:04] Richard: Right? It does suck. 

[00:27:05] Alyssa: I be that. Yeah. And he is like, I also wish this wasn't true. Mm-hmm. And this is my job as your parent. Uh, but I think like that was fuel for me of like, great, let me, let me work to change that because yes, I, I don't love living in that.

[00:27:20] Richard: No. We don't want you to living in that. Yeah. I think we, 

[00:27:22] Alyssa: we often shy away from those conversations, I think, where we're like, mm-hmm. Yeah, no, everything's equal and you have access to this. And they do, and the world's gonna see you the same. And that's just not true. 

[00:27:32] Richard: No. Yeah, no, it's not. 

[00:27:35] Alyssa: Uh, I love being able to equip kids with that.

[00:27:37] Sweet. So with your imposter syndrome, book it as people are, are snagging it. What age group is it like geared toward when we're looking at like, all right, I'm gonna start doing this. I know you said it starts in early ed. Is it written in a way where if you have an early childhood aged child, you could snag this and get started?

[00:27:57] Is it written for, if you have a teenager, can you give us that layout? 

[00:28:00] Richard: Sure. So we talk about the fact that this book is for the whole developmental lifespan. Cool. Right? And so really being able to think about, you know, new parents, even using it as a gift to really think about, okay, how are we setting things up and really being able to, to think about things as our child grows, uh, through, you know, middle school, through high school, even to, to college.

[00:28:23] Right? As long as you're parenting. Mm-hmm. You, you will have that support for this particular book. And so we've been very mindful of that to really think about the different ways you may need to intervene with your child at different stages of their development. 

[00:28:38] Alyssa: Yeah. Okay. Sweet. Love that. Love a, a full book that covers all of it for us.

[00:28:44] Um, it, this phrase has been in my head since we've been chatting. My brother was the salutatorian of like, his class and he gave the speech and there's a quote, the hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work very hard was like the basis for his speech. And that's like his approach to life. It's like hard work beats talent and talent doesn't work very hard.

[00:29:03] I might not be the fastest person out there, but I'm gonna work hard and then I will be the fastest. Mm-hmm. Um, he has been, he's a highly successful human in life and. In his mind it is that hard work, right? Like he was the hard worker I was thinking about earlier. And, uh, I am curious about, like, I look at him and I'm like, it's worked really well for him.

[00:29:28] Like he does, he will work hard for the thing, and he's in sales now and he will grind for it. And he's like, I, I'm not just gonna get that sale or meet that quota. I'm gonna be the best salesperson in this company or whatever. And like that has served him very well. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious, like, are there downsides to that?

[00:29:51] Richard: Mm-hmm. So it, it's interesting because I think some of the myths that we talk about with Impost syndrome is that Impost syndrome is a good thing to have mm-hmm. Because it'll motivate you, it'll allow you to feel like you are still hungry. Yeah. And the reality is it takes a toll that people dealing with I post syndrome, have higher rates of anxiety, higher rates of depression tend to have higher rates of burnout.

[00:30:14] Right. And so the, the overwork and all these other elements Sure. That we don't see behind the scenes or, or what we want to be mindful of. Right. Because we can judge success based on some of the outcomes, but we don't always look at some of the, the processes that get people there. Yeah. That may be, you know, the toll that they are, you know, paying to get to where they want to be based on the fact that, you know, they're trying to.

[00:30:39] Azar Imposter syndrome. 

[00:30:41] Alyssa: Yeah, that makes sense. That reminds me of like the Harvard, uh, the studies, I think it was, of Harvard kids who, and rates of anxiety and depression and suicidal ideation. And it's the smart kids, right? It's the kids who Right. Have always been told they were smart and have that, I mean, sometimes psychosomatic mm-hmm.

[00:31:01] Very real, um, experiences for them of intense anxiety. Mm-hmm. And I have to be the smart one. Now I'm at Harvard and like somebody's gonna find out I don't know all my stuff. Yes. And yeah, that makes sense. That like internal toll might not match the external results. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cool. Oh, I, I'm super into this.

[00:31:26] I love this. I think it's so helpful, and as a woman in business, running a team of 12 and all that jazz and raising a young girl and a young boy, yes. It makes my wheels spin about like what is most effective, and I love the like layout that you presented of how do we respond in the moment when these things do come up?

[00:31:45] Because for me, I think of like Brene Brown's work on, it's not a shame free household. It's shame resilient. How do we help kids? They are going to experience challenges and they might, we might see some impostor syndrome like precursors popping up. Mm-hmm. Instead of how do we avoid imposter syndrome altogether?

[00:32:02] What is our, like workbook here for, how do we respond when we start to see these things? That for me is so comforting of like, I mean, you are the researcher in this. You're doing the work in this. And your daughter's got these thoughts going through her. And I'm like, that's comforting because that means that if this comes up with my kids at some point, it's not that I've failed because they're there.

[00:32:26] Right. It's that now I have a tool for how to respond. 

[00:32:29] Richard: Right. And, and that's exactly it. And that imposter syndrome will creep in because it's not a mental health disorder. It's not about being cured of Impost syndrome. Mm-hmm. It's reducing its impact on your day-to-day functioning. And so it's reducing the level of automatic negative thoughts that a child may experience or a person may experience.

[00:32:49] It's reducing, you know, the overwork or the perfectionistic tendencies that may creep up because they feel like that's the only way for them to prove that they belong. It's really helping them to think about more of the positive statements, to own their accomplishments, to really look at the things that enable them to be their unique human, uh, that contributes to the world in that way.

[00:33:10] Right. And so, ultimately. As you said, yeah, it's gonna pop up. We're all human, it's normal. We will have these particular moments, but it's then being able to have the tools to say, oh, here it is. It's popping up again. What do I do to then reduce it? Here are the things that I know work. And then putting them into action and then really getting back to your normal baseline of not having to deal with those imposter feelings.

[00:33:36] Alyssa: Oh, I love it. So freeing to be like, it's, you're not failing if you're experiencing it. Here's a tool for how to respond. That for me is comforting. Mm-hmm. Thank you so much, rich. It's a pleasure to get to meet you and and chat about this. And I'm stoked for folks to snag your child's greatness, A Parent's Guide to Raising Children Without Imposter Syndrome.

[00:33:57] Thank you so much. 

[00:33:58] Richard: It was my pleasure, Alyssa. Thank you for having me. 

[00:34:01] Alyssa: Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:34:10] Rachel: So my high school reunion this weekend. Yeah. How is that? I've never gone to a high school reunion. I mean, it was one of those situations where I wish that I did drink because I could have used like the social lubrication. Yeah. Um, it was awkward with some people. Sure. But it was also like really fun to talk to some people and like meet their spouses and hear about their kids.

[00:34:39] And 

[00:34:40] Alyssa: I have a serious question. Do most of the people just live around where you are now? Did a lot of people le like from my hometown, I would say it's like 50 

[00:34:49] Rachel: 50. 

[00:34:50] Alyssa: Okay. From my hometown, almost everybody stayed in or around the area and I'm one of the few humans that left. So I feel like if I went to the high school reunion, I would be mingling with a bunch of humans, but the rest of them probably know all about each other.

[00:35:09] Rachel: Yeah. No, a lot of people left and some people like left and then came back. Mm-hmm. But also, like a lot of us are still in Maine, but not like in our hometown. Sure. Like there were a lot of people there that I have not seen since our five year reunion, 10 years ago. Sure. So that was cool, but it was super weird, you know?

[00:35:29] Sure. Maybe I'll go to my 20 year. You should, yeah. What was weird is like people who I like was really close with in high school. Where I would like expect to hug them and like Sure. Talk to them where like, one of them gave me a warm handshake, you know, like the two hand handshake, and I'm like, okay, that's an interesting choice.

[00:35:50] Which later when I had already gone home and a bunch of them were still out, one of my friends went up to that person and was like, so why were you so weird with her? And he was like, I don't know, I, I don't know. I doubled down. I not only shook her hand, but I doubled down with the hand sandwich. 

[00:36:10] Alyssa: That's one of those you just think about later.

[00:36:12] You know, I carried a watermelon. Like what? Yeah, it 

[00:36:15] Rachel: was super weird. Um, but it was fun and it was good to see people and like, just unexpected. Like there was one person who was like a party animal in high school and he didn't really seem to care a lot about like. Much of anything. And he is married and can't wait to have children and very much like settled.

[00:36:37] And that was a shocker. So it was good. I got, I got 

[00:36:41] Alyssa: through it. Um, yeah. Okay. Uh, maybe I'll go to my twenties. You should year, it's such a commitment 'cause it's, I grew up in the place where like you don't, you're not accidentally around it. Right. Yeah. You'd have to really, it's so far away. But I feel like I could probably make that happen.

[00:37:00] Yeah. It's weird too 'cause like we all follow each other on social. That's what I'm saying. Like, although I don't follow a lot of the folks I went to high school with on 

[00:37:10] Rachel: social. I don't follow a lot of the, I, I almost said boys. I don't follow a lot of the men. Um, I would've also said boys, they're still boys in my mind because the last time I had a relationship with them, we were teenagers, a hundred percent.

[00:37:25] Um, I don't follow a lot of the men, but I do follow a good portion of the girls. But of course, the girls were easier to connect with anyway, especially any of the ones that were moms, because it was just like, tell me about your kids. Show me pictures. Sure. Do you love being a mom? 

[00:37:39] Alyssa: Okay. Here's what I think it really is for me as I think a little more about this.

[00:37:44] I grew up in a very conservative area and I left, and when I came back. One of the first things I heard after moving to New York City and I came back for something, was like, oh, big city girls here. Like too good for Port Mill, you know? And so I was like, I don't, I, and now that I have seed and a lot of that's so annoying seed, I'm just like, I have this idea of who they think I am now and it's not necessarily real or true.

[00:38:19] I have just made up a story about who they think I am. Mm-hmm. And what they will say and how they'll show up in relationship with me and have already written off, like interacting and engaging, which is not fair. 

[00:38:34] Rachel: Yeah. I mean, I have stories too about I was wild in high school and so that's like the me that they all know.

[00:38:41] Oh, for sure. 

[00:38:42] Alyssa: Well, that's it. I was wild in high school, but now I have a social media presence where they've continued to see my, yeah. Brand, I guess, unfold and grow and emotional intelligence. I don't know that it's high on the list of things. In fact, I tried to get our program into my elementary school and the principal, somebody, I don't know, I didn't grow up with that person in my life and they were just like, yeah, I don't think this is for us.

[00:39:12] Basically was the message. And I was like, yeah, I'm not shocked. 

[00:39:17] Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think anytime, I don't know what people know of me is, like how I was in high school and then of course like my cancer diagnosis, like spread like wildfire 'cause it's a small town, right? Sure, sure. Um, so yeah, I didn't know if like, people were gonna be weird about that or, you know, I, I burned a couple boys when I, I.

[00:39:42] Was in high school. And um, yeah, there was that. And one of them I totally didn't talk to at all, and I should have, but I just like couldn't figure out how to do it. But, um, so when I met Cody, I had been seeing this other person Sure. And seeing is like a loose term. Like we weren't exclusive, we were just hanging, but he wanted it to be more.

[00:40:04] And I said like, I'm just not ready for more. Like I'm not. Mm. It's not the, and then you got married and had a kid in 14 seconds. And then I met Cody and I was like, oh, weird. When it's the right person, it seems like I'm ready for everything. And um, he actually like texted me, but accidentally it was meant for somebody else.

[00:40:22] But he sent it to me and it was like, cool, that Rachel told me she wasn't ready for a relationship and now she's engaged. Hmm. And I texted him back and was like, I don't think this was meant for me. Um, I'm really sorry that I hurt you. I don't really know how to explain it. Like, I met Cody and something shifted and we just clicked and.

[00:40:40] I, there's no rational explanation for it. Not me. It's you 

[00:40:43] Alyssa: kind of, yeah. 

[00:40:46] Rachel: So he was there and we like made eye contact across the room a couple times, but I just couldn't, 'cause Cody was with me too. So what am I gonna do? I be like, Hey, wanna meet? So awkward. You know? It's just like, 

[00:40:59] Alyssa: I don't know. It's so awkward.

[00:41:02] It's so awkward. And those are 

[00:41:06] Rachel: things, it's not that it matters, it's not like I think that he's missing me or anything like that, but like, he felt like slighted and, 

[00:41:12] Alyssa: and there's a part of him that still lives on that is unsettled. Okay. We went, wow. Deep dive here. Went to Austria. I was presenting for like the UN education U un, I don't know what it stands for.

[00:41:26] UNESCO unes. Yeah, it's a UNESCO like, um, world conference, something, whatever for early childhood. And I was like an expert on the panelist in Paris. I studied abroad in high school in Austria. I've maintained friendships there. And in fact, one of my best friends from growing up ended up like marrying essentially, they're not technically married.

[00:41:49] And one of my Austrian friends, they have kids, she lives there. So when we were going, I was gonna be going to Paris to be on this panel, I was like, let's do like a family trip to Austria. We can see my friends, like let's make a thing of it. And so Zach, me and Zach, the kids, we went for a week and I, the first person I ever loved is an Austrian boy.

[00:42:13] Mm-hmm. Now a man, not a man, just a boy. Boy. And I. Broke his heart. Mm. Um, I was gonna move to Austria and go to college there and stay, whatever, and then I didn't. And um, he came to my parents' house and like stayed with me for my summer between freshman and sophomore year of college. And it was terrible because I was so rude to him because I didn't have any skills for being like, I love you and I'm gonna stay in America and I feel sad about this at the same time that I feel like this is the right choice.

[00:42:55] And so instead I was just terrible to him the whole time he was at my parents to the point where he was like, do you want me to go home? Uhoh? And my mom had to say like, Alyssa, you have to be kind to him. He's so kind. And I was, I was terrible. And so mostly since then, he has not talked to me. I was 19 at the time.

[00:43:19] And so this is almost 20 years ago and I have not seen him. Mm-hmm. I've been back to Austria a few times. I've been there with Zach. I have not seen him. We've done like big friend hangs where all my Austrian friends come and hang when I'm there and he does not come, um, and nothing. And then maybe the first or second day we're there with my kids jet lagged, doing the thing, walking through the city.

[00:43:48] Uh, we're in Badden, which is about a half an hour south of Vienna. We're at this little cafe with my friend Mona, and me, Zach and the kids. And in he walks, he's a teacher on like a field trip with the kids to this park that we're at. And I just immediately didn't know how to exist as a human. Yeah, totally.

[00:44:10] And like, it's absurd, right? This is 20 years ago I was in high school and I loved this boy, and now this man. Who I don't even know as a human anymore, totally walks in and I don't know how to be a human anymore. 

[00:44:24] Rachel: Yeah. 

[00:44:25] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. What is that? 

[00:44:26] Rachel: I don't know. It's, I, I don't know, but I experienced it at this reunion where the boy that I loved in high school, I could not bring myself to be normal.

[00:44:39] Mm-hmm. Or walk over to his wife and introduce myself, even though my husband's here. Um, oh yeah. 

[00:44:45] Alyssa: This dude is married and has kids. We're both married and have kids, and so much time has passed. Mm-hmm. And yet, but no resolution. That's what it is. I wanted to be like, hi, I'd like to have a whole conversation or write you a whole letter and hand it over to you and just like, put a little bow on this.

[00:45:03] Yeah. Instead, I was just like, Hey, I, it's Alyssa. Um. This is Mila. I dunno how to be a human right now. I stumbled through all of my words and was like, what's the appropriate amount of information to say to you when I wanna say, I'm so sorry for breaking your heart 20 years ago. 

[00:45:27] Rachel: Totally. I mean, Cody watched me greet this boy, man, and afterwards, and afterwards he was like, that was hard to watch.

[00:45:37] Why was that so weird? And I was like, I dunno, 

[00:45:42] Alyssa: this boy, man. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I was unwell. And then just the reality that like, oh, I could run into him again at some point totally while we're here with the kids. Then I felt like I was like constantly on edge, like, yes, are you here? I literally said to Mona, I was like, I have to figure out how to be a human around him in case we see him again.

[00:46:04] I, I know. We did not see him. I saw his twin brother, 

[00:46:08] Rachel: but not him, which 

[00:46:09] Alyssa: was, 

[00:46:10] Rachel: I think that's what it is. It's when you know that there's been hurt and that it hasn't been resolved. And even though it's like, okay, yeah, we were 18 when things ended, I honestly, you're still part of them. Totally. But like I don't care about the circumstances.

[00:46:24] I'm not still hurt. Mm-hmm. I would love to know you and like hear about your life and your children, but like whatever, it's water under the bridge, but there is that part inside that's like, well, this isn't resolved, so you can't be normal, so let's make it as weird as we can. 

[00:46:39] Alyssa: So real, I don't know how to be a human.

[00:46:42] Oh man. 

[00:46:43] Rachel: Yeah. Who are we 

[00:46:44] Alyssa: chatting 

[00:46:44] Rachel: about 

[00:46:44] Alyssa: today? 

[00:46:45] Rachel: Okay, so this is Richard Orbe Austin. 

[00:46:48] Alyssa: Yeah. I enjoyed hanging out with him. He was a new person to me where sometimes we get people where like we're pitching them or they're friends of ours, you know, that I get to bring in the pod and sometimes people reach out and I get to meet them fresh and new and.

[00:47:04] He was a fresh and new one and I really just, I dig him as a human and appreciate his lens of doing this work with his daughters too. 

[00:47:15] Rachel: Yeah, I thought a lot of what he had to say was insightful. I didn't really think about children having imposter syndrome. Right. 'cause it feels like an adult thing I think for me in a lot of ways.

[00:47:27] But then thinking about, he was talking about how like it starts with often how we label children and I was labeled very young as a child and then I constantly felt like I had to live up to that. And imposter syndrome is still something that I experience and it's around that same idea. Mm-hmm. Um, so that was like a helpful lens shift for me of like wanting to make sure that I'm aware of that with my own kids.

[00:47:58] Alyssa: Yes, a hundred percent. I for sure experience imposter syndrome. And it is interesting to think about it with kids and how do we support them with self-confidence and self-worth. And I've been thinking about this actually with Loma Mar, that she had like a clip go viral some point recently where she was just like, yeah, I don't have imposter syndrome.

[00:48:26] Hmm. And I was like, Alona, tell me more. Also, Alona, I'd love to have you on the podcast, you and your sisters to chat about this if you're listening or this gets back to you. Come on over, come hang out. Let's chat about, uh, you know, just like self-confidence and self worth and self-esteem, and how you thought that.

[00:48:41] Yeah. I, 

[00:48:42] Rachel: I wonder what that feels like to not have, like, I would love to know. 

[00:48:46] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. And I would love to know like what they felt like. They received in childhood that fostered it. Same. '

[00:48:55] Rachel: cause I'm like, how can I give that to my kids? Correct. 

[00:48:58] Alyssa: Correct. Um, I feel like the more that I have existed in the world, the less imposter syndrome I have, where as I've had the privilege of getting a seat at tables and getting to see behind the scenes or meet people who I've like put on pedestals or things like that.

[00:49:23] And the more I meet them or the more I'm in these rooms, the more I, the more confidence I gain of like, oh, I have something to offer. Give an example of. Let's grow kids as an organization here in Vermont. It does a, we do a lot of work around policy and I knew about Let's Grow Kids when I was living in Boston before we even moved back to Vermont.

[00:49:44] It's a huge organization that's done a lot of work here in Vermont around early childhood. And I'd put LGK in this huge pedestal. And then when I moved to Vermont, I was like, oh, I wanna be involved and connect with them. And I reached out to their CEO immediately and like connected in all these ways.

[00:49:59] And then fast forward to I was asked to be on the board and initially I was like, what do I have to offer to this board? Like these are humans who have been slaying so much incredible work in early ed. And then after my first board meeting, I was like, oh, I belong here. In fact, my voice is needed. Here I am bringing a lens that doesn't exist on this board and.

[00:50:30] So the more I've like had a behind the scenes look or had a seat at the table, or met humans who I've put on pedestals, the more I've realized that everybody's a person. Yeah. And they're all just flawed human beings trying to do their best and hope that they have some answers. And the more I've realized, oh, I do have a lot to offer in these spaces.

[00:50:53] In fact, they're, what I bring to the table is missing in these spaces. And that's actually what led us to creating what we're working on now in school systems for regulating and emotionally friendly spaces is we're going into these school districts and there are a ton of companies that have curriculums for SEL, for social emotional learning.

[00:51:16] And you walk in and I'm like, oh, either it's not being done to fidelity. Or there's a missing component of it that isn't being done that prevents the rest of it from happening. Right. And that's where I was like, we need to create something here. I, I don't get fired up if I am on a panel and I'm like, oh yeah, this person's got it.

[00:51:40] Like I don't need to be the voice here on this topic. Like if we were talking about attachment and I was gonna be in a room and I had to talk about attachment and Eli's there, I'm like, yeah, she can slay that. Totally. I don't need to be a part of that conversation. I can add something else to the table and kinda round out a panel or whatever.

[00:52:00] But she's incredible at this Eli Harwood. For those new to the main Eli, 

[00:52:08] Rachel: we don't even need the last name around here. 

[00:52:11] Alyssa: Attachment nerd on Instagram. One of my favorite follows, one of my favorite humans. Uh, but looking at that and saying like. Where are there gaps in something and how can I support that?

[00:52:22] Has I think very much helped my imposter syndrome piece, realizing there are gifts that I have or there's knowledge that I have, or there's wisdom I could share that isn't being shared or represented. 

[00:52:37] Rachel: Yeah. It's different. 

[00:52:38] Alyssa: Yes, exactly. Yeah, and I mean, I, it's interesting, I gave a talk recently to a group of folks who, Elisa Pressman, who I love and adore, um, raising good humans.

[00:52:52] Mm-hmm. Podcast, her podcast, she wrote the five Principles of Parenting book. She's incredible. And her were so in alignment on our approach. She had presented to this group before Dr. Tina Payne, Bryson of whole brain, child, et cetera. Yeah. Had presented to this group before and after I presented to this same group of parents and educators.

[00:53:16] I ended up presenting for a long time and like hanging and answering questions for a while and there were, uh, multiple people who were like, oh my gosh, this was like mind blowing or eyeopening or, I learned about, and I asked, I was like, you guys have had incredible humans who I love and respect and I know can slay a presentation and deliver incredible info.

[00:53:37] What was it about this that felt different? Hmm. And it was the nervous system stuff. It was the sensory systems, the part that's often left off the table. Well, we'll talk about being in like a reactive brain or a responsive brain of like, are you in your prefrontal cortex or you in your amygdala. That's pretty common.

[00:53:54] Yeah. But the nine sensory systems work is not Yeah. In conjunction with how it shows up with emotions and. Hearing that I was like, okay, yeah. I need to continue to show up in spaces even where people that I love and respect are also showing up because we're offering slightly different things. Yeah. That really pair well 

[00:54:14] Rachel: together.

[00:54:15] That's the thing is they compliment each other. 'cause the nervous system work is really necessary for the emotional work. That's right. Yeah. 

[00:54:22] Alyssa: So that actually has helped with my imposter syndrome. Yeah, that makes sense. And I wish I could go and like tell younger Alyssa, like, you're gonna get into these rooms and here's what you're gonna notice.

[00:54:32] Rachel: Yeah. And you have something of value to bring to the table. That's it. 

[00:54:36] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. And I felt like how could I have something of value to bring to the table that these humans aren't already bringing. Sure. 

[00:54:45] Rachel: I want to be mindful with my kids about. I guess like wanting them to have flexibility in their mindset around who they are and not like, oh, you're the smart ones.

[00:54:59] So you always need to be smart, but like you can be smart and hardworking or like you can be smart and not have all the answers, like being smart or hardworking or whatever label kids hear about themselves. It doesn't mean that you can't be other things too, and nobody has all the answers. 

[00:55:16] Alyssa: You can be smart and you can be wrong is one.

[00:55:19] I wish I heard thousand percent. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up as a smart kid. Same. And it was really praised and I have a hard time being wrong. Mm-hmm. Because I feel like it's a threat to that identity. Mm. Or being perceived as dumb. Like if Zach's. Explaining something to me and I'm like, yeah, nope, I got it.

[00:55:46] I understand how that works. Thanks so much. And he's like, okay, yeah. I was like, all righty then too. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great. I will say nothing. And he relatively recently said, just for the record, anytime I'm saying anything to you never is my thought process. I have to say this 'cause she's knitty because she's dumb.

[00:56:09] Yeah, right. I was like, 

[00:56:12] Rachel: yep. Nope, that's fair. That's fair. That's a big one for Cody. Like he does not like to be perceived as like being unintelligent so much so that like when we play like catchphrase with our group of friends, he's so stressed that he, it's like now an ongoing joke. So he'll be like, right, it's game night.

[00:56:30] What should we play? And everybody's like, catchphrase Cody. Cody. Because he gets so stressed about it and after a couple of times of him like legit almost getting like irritable about it, I was like. What's going on here? Like, what's the root of this? Are you afraid that our friends will think you're dumb if you can't, like do a catchphrase prompt?

[00:56:49] And he was like, yeah, I think so. And I was like, yeah, I don't, I don't think any of them think you're dumb, and I don't think catchphrase is gonna change that. Like, I think it's okay to be bad at catchphrase and it doesn't say anything about your level of intelligence. 

[00:57:03] Alyssa: So good. I relate that. I feel that sometimes with code names.

[00:57:08] Mm. I'm like, uh, I don't have the brain space to play code names right now. And what that really is, is I don't wanna be perceived as dumb if I can't figure it out because I'm more tired. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. It's 

[00:57:23] Rachel: all 

[00:57:23] Alyssa: so silly. 

[00:57:24] Rachel: That's what's actually dumb is the thought process. Also. It's like our society is so elitist in that way that like you're only valuable if your intelligence is of a certain caliber.

[00:57:36] And that's just so not true. 

[00:57:39] Alyssa: And it's so not true. Okay. Actually pedestal for a moment. This is a thing that I have so much beef with. Well, you know, I have a lot of hard time with, um, financial privilege. Mm-hmm. And yes. Um, just like wealthy people in general, like put me in a dive bar over a yacht club any day of the week, please.

[00:58:00] Mm-hmm. And I'm like in a yacht club. I don't know the rules. What am I supposed to wear? Is there silverware rules? I'm just like, I don't belong here. Think, supposed to say, I do not belong here. That's what comes up for me is like, hundred 

[00:58:11] Rachel: percent I don't belong here. 

[00:58:12] Alyssa: Yes. I don't know how to exist here.

[00:58:15] Totally. And I. Was recently chatting with a friend of mine who is very wealthy and we were talking about raising our kids and she was like talking about college and kids going to college. She was like, honestly, also though, if they wanna go to like a trade school, and I just like softened because I've never heard that in any of my privileged circles, like financially privileged circles.

[00:58:50] She was like, yeah, whatever they wanna do. Yeah. And she said, she was like, it would be real handy to have a plumber in the house. And I was like, for sure. Also, it's highly skilled and it's, this is my like early childhood educator getting fired up that I have a master's in a field that's never been valued.

[00:59:11] Societally or financially. And when I got my first teaching job teaching preschool in New York City, I made $30,000. And I was like, oh my God, I'm a thousandaire. I'm so lucky. And, and then was like, oh shoot. I can't ever have one job 'cause I can't afford to. You can't live on this. Yeah. Yes. And that's a problem.

[00:59:35] And I have a master's degree in early childhood. And because it's in a trade and in a space where it's not been valued, we are not financially valued either. Mm-hmm. And I will die in this pedestal of the idea that you're only smart. I know so many people, right, who like. Went to Harvard or have been to like fancy schools, and I know so many humans who never went to college and work in trades, and the humans who went to Harvard are not humans that should be more valued or are necessarily smarter.

[01:00:18] Mm. Mm-hmm. I'm a human who performs better on a test, does really well in school. School is made for my nervous system and Zach is in so many ways smarter than I am, but doesn't perform well on a test. School's not made for him. I don't know how I end this other than just saying this is all bullshit. And it is so that I don't think that like smart should mean.

[01:00:50] Oh, I went to Duke and then I was at Columbia and now I have this like prestigious whatever. Oh, and also I was able to do that because it was financially funded from the wealth that I grew up with, 

[01:01:01] Rachel: a hundred percent. Also, I, I think understanding that trades require a very high level of skill, like we've lost that perspective in our society.

[01:01:14] Yes. We're so focused on like academia and degrees, and what letters do you have behind your name, and even things like mechanics, plumbers, welders, like these things require high levels of skill and years of experience, and they're just as valuable as the person with their PhD who is, you know, has dedicated their life to academia.

[01:01:41] Alyssa: Yeah, they're essential. So imposter syndrome is bullshit and I am jazzed for Richard's voice in this space and his work to really guide us in like how do we support our kids and what are the right questions to ask or things that help us identify if a kid's experiencing imposter syndrome and how to help them navigate it so that they can show up in all the spaces and in all the ways as their authentic self.

[01:02:10] Yeah. Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at Voices of your village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at seed dot and do so SEW. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag seed dot, and do so to let me know your key takeaway.

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