The Emotional Work of Everyday Parenting with Jennie Monness

 Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I get to sit down with my friend Jennie Monness, founder of the We Didn't Turn Out OK Podcast and fellow parent navigating the messy, meaningful work of raising tiny humans. In this conversation, Jennie and I talk about the dissonance so many of us feel between the parent we thought we'd be and the one we actually are. We explore what it means to show up with self-awareness, to build visual routines that support our kids through transitions, and to lean into repair when things don't go as planned. We both share some real life stories, moments when we got it right-- and moments when we didn't. This episode is an invitation to let go of perfection and embrace the learning curve together. All right, folks. Let's dive in.

[00:00:52] Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:09] Let's dive in together.

[00:01:14] I'm so jazzed for this conversation because I don't know your full journey, like know things you're doing now, but I don't know how you got to this point. What was it that like sparked your, I'm gonna work with tiny humans? 

[00:01:30] Jennie: Yeah. It's so interesting because we recently met for coffee and we shared kind of similar feelings about young humans, but I don't know if we shared like aha moment for me.

[00:01:44] So I. I knew I loved psychology. Truly felt that in college when I was taking, you know, what was then just like requirements for me not having a major yet that that's really where I found myself being most passionate about learning. I really felt like I was loving learning and loving going to a class when it was related to psychology.

[00:02:08] And so I started taking more of those classes and then, you know, when it came time to graduate, I was like, I wanna do more psychology. So I applied to Columbia Teacher's College and did psychology and education. Not necessarily yet knowing that it was gonna be about tiny humans, but I knew maybe not grown, grown adults.

[00:02:27] I didn't. I felt intimidated by helping people who were older than me at that time, which I'm smiling about because of my story. So once I did that, I started doing clinical research to maybe get my PhD and really got caught up in just. I was working at Sloan Kettering at a cancer center, and it, it took a toll on me.

[00:02:51] Um, but I loved being in the pediatrics department there, and so I was like, you know what? I'm gonna take a break from all these sort of requirements and really follow the universe, which I feel is pointing me in the direction of smaller humans, I'll say. Mm-hmm. And I applied on Craigslist and got an interview in Chinatown working with two year olds.

[00:03:13] The goal was that I was gonna be speaking English with an assistant teacher who only spoke Mandarin and kids who only spoke Mandarin. And so I'm smiling because it makes sense that from there I really figured out how to connect with kids. Not necessarily just through language. We didn't understand each other.

[00:03:31] Yeah. But it was through playing connection. And I fell in love. Um, I remember going on dates at the time, and they'd be like, so what grade do you teach? I'm like, two year olds are like, no, come on. You changed diapers. I'm like, yeah. Help them go to the potty. I loved it. Like I loved that you could connect and teach, not just through, you know, what you, at the time I felt, you know, I learned now all about connection and play, but at the time it's like what worksheets or like what circle time and what letter, you know, you don't know when you think of.

[00:04:04] Teaching kids, you think it's about that, but it's so much more. 

[00:04:08] Alyssa: Well, I think culturally that's still the case, right? Like, I remember teaching infants at one point, a masters in early childhood. I was teaching infants, we were doing research on the set method actually at the time. And I was out to dinner with friends and there were like, people had brought other people.

[00:04:24] So I was meeting like friends, friends. And similarly, they're like, oh, what do you do? And I was like, oh, I'm a teacher. What do you teach? And I was like, oh, I teach infants. And they were like at a daycare and I was like, oh, we call it childcare. Yeah. But um, but yeah. And uh, they were like, oh, like what do you do?

[00:04:41] You're just like with babies all day. And I was like, yeah. And then I always feel this like. Part of me that wants to be like, and we're performing 90% of a child's brain before they go to kindergarten. Our work is so important and like the justification because culturally we don't have that respect as teachers.

[00:05:00] We don't have it in pay, we don't have it, um, socially and culturally. And I also just loved it. Yeah, 

[00:05:11] Jennie: I was surprised because, you know, to me it was like, oh, I'm applying to maybe be like, you know, pre-K kindergarten. And to me I didn't know, I didn't honestly have firsthand experience with age group prior to this besides like family and friends.

[00:05:30] And then, yeah, I saw the magic. I also saw how rewarding, you know, there was one time I was. Running late for an appointment. And there was a little girl who was new to the group and they kept calling me. They're like, she won't stop crying. Like, you have to come. I was like, what am I gonna be able to offer this child?

[00:05:46] Like, she doesn't even understand my language. And as soon as I got there, she comes. And I, I know you know that when you have that connection with mm-hmm. You know, it just happens. And I realized the power and of just, it's okay that they don't understand my language. I don't understand theirs, you know, that was intimidating to me at first.

[00:06:05] Mm-hmm. And I just really leaned in and grew so confident in all the other ways through the care, the play, the really seeing them, the getting down on their level, all of it. There's so 

[00:06:16] Alyssa: much nonverbal communication, right. It's, I know how we communicate with babies and I remember I was like maybe 10 days postpartum with sage and was, and my like first.

[00:06:29] Therapy session as a mom, and it was virtual. It was COVID times, and I just said like, yeah, he's such a good communicator. My therapist was like, all babies are good communicators if we're listening. I was like, yes, all babies. So true communicators. If we're listening and there's just so much nonverbal that goes into this.

[00:06:50] I love your respect for kids. I'm jazzed for this topic today because man, also like why I started the seed cert because I'd be in workshops and at conferences as teachers and I'm like, yes, this makes total sense. I love this. I'm so fired up by the topic. And then they get back into the classroom and the realities hit the triggers.

[00:07:14] Yeah. The a kid throwing a block across the classroom or smacking another kid across the face and now inside I wanna like fight a 2-year-old. You know? And like all that stuff I just learned in a workshop is not accessible. 

[00:07:26] Jennie: So true. 

[00:07:27] Alyssa: It's real, right? And so it's so real. We can think about like who do we want to be as a parent even day to day, even once you have kids, I'm like, all right, here's how I'm gonna show up.

[00:07:37] I recently went on a work trip and it was really rejuvenating and I came back and I'm like, okay, I am ready to be all the time the parent I wanna be right. And I'm like, 36 hours in. I'm like, for the love. Oh, that's a long time.

[00:07:54] I made it 36 whole hours. And so really to like dive into the who do we want to be as a parent versus who are we and how are we showing up and what does that mean for 

[00:08:09] Jennie: us? Yes. Yeah, it's so true. I think you really make such a good point. And it might be why I love this topic so much that even before I was a parent working with young kids, as we just said.

[00:08:25] Feeling really inspired and excited by the professional development. And you know, I worked for eight years with infants and toddlers before becoming a parent and seeing how hard that was, even without being a parent, but just a teacher, you know, just the, mm-hmm. At the time it was like nine to what?

[00:08:42] Three four if it's aftercare, whatever it was. And seeing how hard it was to implement that and why I now have such respect. And I feel I can connect well with people when I do professional development because I'm like, I know how hard this is gonna be to implement and here are the things that helped me when I was a teacher.

[00:08:58] But anyway, I really felt that even as a teacher and I knew going into parenting that it would be inevitable too. And I think it's why I wasn't in a rush to become a parent because I was like, there's so much I wanna be, and I don't know how easy that will. To be. Mm-hmm. And it's why I really felt like I need to set up all the things to set myself up for success.

[00:09:22] You know, I left my job and decided to become an entrepreneur at that time thinking like, you know, you, you try to like set yourself up for success. Or at least I did. And I then turned what was then mom, mommy's my social media account to help guide parents on this into this like vulnerable like, guys, I don't even know what I'm doing.

[00:09:44] Account. Because of how hard that was. Yeah. It's real. It was so real. I was like, even when they were handing me my baby, you know, at the hospital, I went to the nursery, I was like, I don't know how I'm here asking you for help. Like, I'm supposed to know this. Mm-hmm. I truly remember it. You know, I, Tess was colicky from the start and we had like a rough, you know, childbirth together via C-section ultimately, but.

[00:10:12] They were like, some babies just, you know, are a little bit harder than others, but I really believe we're given the babies that we're meant to have. Long story short, yes, I, I every day think about the parent I wanna be and realize where and how. That's really hard. Um, and learn from that. But I will say there's never a day where I'm like, I showed up exactly as the parent that I'm supposed to and wanna be, but that I don't feel, um, what's the word, tormented by that?

[00:10:45] Because it's just what it is. You're growing and in a relationship with your kids. 

[00:10:51] Alyssa: Yes. And that's the thing is like we are in relationship and that's what I have to remind myself of over and over is that part of being in relationship is that I'm gonna mess up and get things wrong. Just this morning we have our morning routine.

[00:11:09] For Sie to get out the door. And we typically, he'll like have quiet time up in his room. He really likes for nobody to talk to him or touch him for a nice chunk of the morning. And his sisters the opposite. And so before she was born, he would just come right down and we would kind of give him space downstairs and he would eat breakfast and hang and whatever.

[00:11:31] And now that she's in the picture, she's like, hi. Hi. High five. High five. In his space. In his space from the moment she sees him. And so the way that he protects his space is by staying in his room for a little while and having like a slow wake up. He has toys in there. He is got a Yoda in there. He can watch a show for the first like half hour of the day.

[00:11:54] Once his tree lights come on. He has a Christmas tree that he refuses to let go of that is like a fake one that's in his room. Cute. That has lights on it. And so that's like his okay to wake clock now is when the lights come. And then he can get up and he can navigate whatever in his room. And we'll often bring up breakfast of some sort to him up there and he'll eat and do his own thing.

[00:12:17] And then he comes down like ready to rock, get dressed, do the day, whatever. And my husband was like, also, this is my dream. If no one would talk to me for the first hour, my daddy, um, and Mila and I are like, hi, it's so nice to see you. Can't wait to hear about your dream. Oh my God. But so this morning we had just gotten home from this like weekend away, like kind of out of flow this morning.

[00:12:40] And all of a sudden we were like, oh, neither of us has brought him up any sort of food or anything. And so I go up and I'm like, Hey buddy. So sorry we forgot to feed you this morning. I have breakfast down at the table. You can come on down in like two minutes and just like meltdown in Sues. And because it was awe correct.

[00:13:04] And he's like, I need to have my breakfast upstairs. And I was like, oh, wow. And I like fully caught off guard, but also for some reason decided this was a hill I was gonna die on this morning. I was like, buddy, it's eight o'clock, we have to leave for school by eight 30. We don't have a whole lot of time.

[00:13:25] And usually when you come downstairs, you like to play for a little bit. So if you have breakfast up here, we're gonna run out of time. When you come downstairs, I'm like jumping ahead to like, oh, there's gonna be a meltdown when he comes downstairs and doesn't have time to play if we do breakfast up here.

[00:13:43] So let me save myself and just get him downstairs. False. Alyssa, full meltdown. He's a disaster. And I'm like, yeah, we're not doing breakfast up here. Again, for some reason in this moment, this is the hill I'm gonna die on. Meltdown goes on for like 20 minutes until finally my husband's like, why does it matter where he eats this?

[00:14:05] And I was like, yeah, I guess it doesn't like, 

[00:14:09] Jennie: but did you feel that it was because of time? And then you realize like 

[00:14:12] Alyssa: Totally. But then the time didn't matter anyway. 'cause he melted down for 20 minutes upstairs. Right? Like I shot myself in the foot essentially. Totally. But it's like, oh, totally in the dream world, I would've pulled back and been like, yeah, you can have your breakfast upstairs.

[00:14:26] I know this was different than normal. We can also, to be totally honest, we don't even have to leave by eight 30. He goes to childcare and there's not a set time he has to be there. It's just my routine. I wanted to get a workout in once he went to school. And I knew if we leave later, I'm not gonna get a workout in.

[00:14:45] Right. Like stuck in my own way. Right. On this topic of like parent I thought I'd be versus one I am this morning I'm navigating a 20 minute meltdown that fully I caused and I'm like, I'm gonna die on this hill until an outside source. My husband can step in and say, is there a reason we're dying on this hill?

[00:15:11] Jennie: There's so much there though, like, well first I think like we have to honor, you know, like if you wanted to get in a workout like that is something, right. Sure. It is something I didn't get in the 

[00:15:23] Alyssa: workout anyway because we melted down for 20 minutes. 

[00:15:25] Jennie: Totally. And then it is something to say that like the meltdown can maybe cause a longer stretch of time than you know, the upstairs or downstairs.

[00:15:36] I think also what's there is that I didn't mention yet, but is such a huge part of like the parent that we thought we'd be, is that we really learned so much about our own stuff. 

[00:15:48] I 

[00:15:48] mean, your husband was there to kind of say, wait, Alyssa, like what? What's going on? Like, why are you stuck on this? But how hard that is when we don't have the voice of reason husband, or you know, maybe the husband's also like, we're dying on this hill.

[00:16:03] Totally. Matt often will be like, if Jen's dying on this hill, that means I'm supposed to also, she's the expert and I'm like, wait, this hill is about like my internal trigger about like why I can't get in a workout, whatever. The point is that like you really learn so much about yourself when you let yourself, but sometimes we get stuck in it.

[00:16:21] Like had he not been there, you would later maybe reflect. I think that that's such a real thing. You know, I wouldn't even say that it's necessarily like it triggered you, you just wanted to work out. But there's other times where maybe it, it maybe triggered you 'cause you're like, wait, I forgot to bring him his breakfast.

[00:16:40] What does that say about me? And now I'm spiraling, you know, I'm making this up, but Totally. And I'm just like, 

[00:16:45] Alyssa: what does it matter each your breakfast downstairs for the love? Right. 

[00:16:49] Jennie: And then once you're in it though, it's like, am I now, if I give into that, what message am I sending? We so often get stuck there that like this one time, if I give in, it's like sending this message that my child's entitled or can be the one demanding things.

[00:17:05] And the truth is, he was off of his routine. Mm-hmm. That's a real thing. Right? I mean, I'm not just saying that because I believe so much in routines, but yeah, that can throw off anybody 

[00:17:17] Alyssa: a hundred percent. And especially. Like sensory sensitive or neurodivergent humans, that being outside of that, like that cognitive flexibility for him is tough.

[00:17:32] He's like, there is a plan A and there is no plan B. Right? Right. And I have to parent the child that I have, and they're two totally different humans. Right. And so the way that I would navigate that with Mila is how I navigated that with Sage. And that's not how his nervous system works. Right. 

[00:18:01] Jennie: You know?

[00:18:03] Was that ra, I mean, I know this is, I like love asking questions. Yeah. But was that wrapped in there that you were like, why can't I, oh, I can subconsciously, 

[00:18:12] Alyssa: yeah. Where it's just like, uh, can we do that? Or like, this is 

[00:18:16] Jennie: helping him if I like push him through. Like telling ourselves that. Is that what you Right, 

[00:18:22] Alyssa: right, right.

[00:18:22] That's a good question. Maybe a bit sometimes for sure. Where I'm like, yeah, it's okay for his plan to be derailed. Right. And I believe that to be true, that we won't intentionally derail his plan, but there are gonna be times where there's a detour that we didn't see coming. You know? And I don't, my goal is not to save him from those, but instead for him to navigate them under our roof as often as possible so that when he is out in the world navigating them, it hopefully comes with some more ease and some more skillsets.

[00:18:55] But I think this one, honestly, it was more just, I don't wanna deal with it. I think it also comes up for me sometimes when. I know that a transition would be easier if I did it playfully, but I'm like, I don't want, and I'm not in the mood right now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that it's kind of like a similar thing here where I'm like, can we just, can we just skip ahead to the part where it's fine and we're eating breakfast somewhere?

[00:19:26] Jennie: Yes. Oh my God, you make such a good point of what triggers me, like when we're like holding onto that fantasy. I wanna say fantasy, obviously sometimes it's a 

[00:19:38] Alyssa: fantasy, right? Even 

[00:19:39] Jennie: though it seems like totally feasible, that really gets me and it can invoke so much more than I wanna bring to it, you know, in a situation.

[00:19:48] So maybe that was like, yeah, you wanted to be like, can't we just like go upstairs and eat happily? Like. And then if we bring that energy right, it can be like sort of making a child inadvertently feel like ashamed of the fact that they're derailing. You know, I'm not saying you send this to him, but I find that with my younger daughter who's sensitive to similar derailing of things when I'm like, you know, it's just so silly to say out loud.

[00:20:17] I have a five and 7-year-old, but sometimes I'll be like, all I wanted was X, Y, and Z. And it's like, why am I doing this? Oh, I live to make them feel worse than they already 

[00:20:26] Alyssa: feel. Totally, totally. Can't we just have a nice family dinner, right? Can't we just Yeah, that narrative. Totally right. Yeah. It's so real.

[00:20:36] And I think for sure that comes up where I'm like, can we just have a morning where there isn't a battle? And if one thing isn't done perfectly, and then of course he's like looking for something to control and. If I'm not super cognizant and conscious, I, I'm a human in life where any boundary that's ever been set for me, I'm like, let me learn more about it before I just choose to follow it.

[00:21:04] I'll let you know if I'm gonna follow it. So my daughter is too. Bless. It's lovely to parent. Same. And so when Sage is then looking for something to control, I go into like double down mode. And I have to be very conscious of this to like override my own then assertion of power and control where I'm like, no, we're not gonna do that.

[00:21:29] And it's like, why Alyssa? Why right. This? And it's really all in that like. Power and control. Right. It's why I don't just say yes to a boundary. I'm looking at where do I have power and control and I was very much raised in a household where it was punishment, reward systems because I said, so I set a boundary, you follow it?

[00:21:52] And I was like, over my dead body, do I just follow it? Always my whole life because I really, I was looking at where do I have power? Totally, 

[00:22:02] Jennie: totally. I'm so interested to know though, like are there ever times where you remember in your body that that's like how your family structure was set and so you sometimes expect even subconsciously.

[00:22:20] That's how sometimes it has to be in your now family. Totally. 

[00:22:24] Alyssa: Yeah. Absolutely. Especially when I'm just like in habit pattern routine. Right. Right. And I'm like, okay, just because I said so. Right, right. Like I don't have time to 

[00:22:35] Jennie: play through this or explain. Correct. 

[00:22:37] Alyssa: Correct. Yeah. And I do, I just don't wanna Right, right.

[00:22:42] It's the playfulness and routines. Yeah. I just don't always wanna, sometimes that feels like work. And I think that's something we don't talk a whole lot about for when we're like breaking cycles from our childhood and we're doing something differently. That's not a part of our subconscious, so our autopilot and our habits that are operating from our subconscious that take up less brain power, it's way harder to access your conscious brain and be intentional in every move.

[00:23:14] It's why transitions are so hard, because when there's a change that happens, your brain has to use more of its conscious brain than the subconscious, and we're used to really relying on the subconscious for at least 90% of our day. When I go to make coffee, I don't have to think about it. I just open that cabinet.

[00:23:33] I know where the cup is, I can pour it. I can do it while having a conversation. I don't have to think about the steps, but when I'm doing something differently than I experienced or. And how I was raised, I have to use my conscious brain, which is exhausting. We have to like consciously think about what are these steps?

[00:23:50] What does this look like? How do I do this? And I didn't have parents who did playful transitions or who paused and said like, yeah, sure, you can just eat it up here. That's fine. And so when I have to do that, I have to use my conscious brain, which is just inherently exhausting until you form a new habit or pattern in doing it.

[00:24:11] Jennie: Yes. Oh my God, it's so true. I mean, I think that you, even reflecting today on like what happened this morning can feel exhausting, right? And there's times when like, not only, so then imagine in the moment, right? Mm-hmm. But how many moments or you know, and not even to like shame the people who like don't take a second after, but.

[00:24:36] I find that when I, you know, I'm not reflecting afterwards to be this like guilt ridden martyr, like beating myself up about it. It's so that I, for next time, not only for my kids' sake, but also I wanna feel better. Right? Like, what can I learn from this? You know? I know you're on soon. My podcast we didn't turn out okay.

[00:24:54] It's supposed to have dot, dot, dot at the end. I should change that because it's like, but what can we learn from that? Yeah. Rather than like, how, instead of just continuously being on this sort of autopilot. And I find it's not just like reliving the past for like the sake of it, but it's just like, where does that come from?

[00:25:13] Always helps me grow out of it, you know? Yeah. Like it's in our body sometimes we don't even know why. And so knowing like, oh, it's 'cause that's like how I was programmed. Uhhuh can help you move through and change Totally. Yeah. Do you find that like a moment like this morning makes you reflect automatically on when your husband's like, are we really gonna die on this hill?

[00:25:36] Do are you just like, for me, it's hard to like let go. If my husband were to say that, I'd be like, yes, this is what, you know, I'm in like this, like self righteous mode. Sure. Even if after I think about it. So I'm curious for you, like, were you able to switch in that moment? 

[00:25:51] Alyssa: I was able to switch in that moment and had he asked that like at the beginning of it, maybe three or five minutes into the meltdown, maybe I wouldn't have switched as fast, but when we're like 20 minutes into the meltdown or whatever and he's like, are we gonna die on this hill?

[00:26:06] Then I'm like, yeah, I'm done dying in this. I like this hill sucks and I don't wanna die here anymore. And so I think part of it was time that I was more open to it. We also, we have a lot of these conversations with each other outside the moment and I know that. He and I are on the same page, and that we both want the same thing.

[00:26:33] And so if I'm stepping in when he is interacting with the kids or he's stepping in, when I'm interacting with the kids, I get this point. There's a genuine belief between us that it's in service of the same goal. Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:49] Jennie: Yeah. It's not like overstepping or like demeaning. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah. That's such a powerful thing to know.

[00:26:57] Yeah. Right. You never have to question like what the intention is. The agenda is to help the whole family. To help each other. Correct. Right. 

[00:27:07] Alyssa: And I know he knows that I respect him as a parent, and I know that he respects me as a parent, and so he's not stepping in because I'm failing. And vice versa. Like, I'm not stepping in because he's failing.

[00:27:22] And we, again, I think we only got to that place from so many conversations outside the moment. And it was not always like that. There were times, especially when Sie was really little, where he would say like, I've got this, like, you're stepping in too soon. And I was like, okay. Yeah. And would have to let things play out a little bit longer, um, because I would be like, uh, I know how to handle this, right?

[00:27:49] Like Right, I've got this. And the reality is I did, and I could have stepped in and like saved him. But a part of them being in relationship and learning each other was going through the messiness of, yeah, Sage might cry a little longer, or Zach might be asking him a million times over what he's saying.

[00:28:07] And I know the word that Sage is trying to say and Zach isn't understanding it. And I would just like be in the kitchen and I'd be like. He's saying he wants to mow the lawn Right. Or whatever, and Zach's like, yep. Got give it time. Like, I've got this right. And I had to really practice that at the beginning.

[00:28:27] Jennie: Yeah. It's sort of like, I wonder when you were saying that you trust that each other's goals are the same and, and for the whole family and not to overstep, it's similar to our kids, right? Like we have to sometimes be the people we love's frontal lobe at times. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's hard for me to accept that, like when my husband needs to be mine, it truly is hard because I like wanna pride myself on like knowing how to control my frontal lobe, which you can't ever control it perfectly.

[00:29:01] I mean, that unicorn doesn't exist. But I think that what you're saying is that like, yeah, trusting that like everyone, you know, in the beginning when you said that you've worked past it, that you would dive into soon. Is it because of what you do for a living? Or like you just Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:29:19] Alyssa: And so he did see it as like judgment of his parenting early on of like, okay, I get it.

[00:29:25] You've got the answers. And I don't, and yeah, that was a me problem more than it was a him problem because I, that was true. I did see it as I have the answer and he doesn't. Right. When he's like, I'm forming my own relationship in Paris. Right. Like, lemme 

[00:29:41] Jennie: live. 

[00:29:41] Alyssa: Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, I've worked with infants and toddlers for years and can have a conversation with a kid and decipher what's happening, what's going on, and whatever.

[00:29:51] And he was real new to infants and toddlers. Right? Yeah. Like he did not have the amount of hours put in that I had, and I just had to give him time. 

[00:30:01] Jennie: Yeah, totally. I wanted to ask you though, like with Sage, you were like, we have to flex from your normal routine. Mm-hmm. Do you find, and of course I love visual routines, you know?

[00:30:17] Yeah. I created the springboard with charm springing based on all the time working in classrooms and seeing that when we show even infants and toddlers, the visuals around that, do you find that in those moments there's like a preemptive tool that you could use? I, I dunno the answer to this, right? Like, you're not gonna like whip out the visual routine board and be like, so today we're not gonna do this.

[00:30:38] I mean, sometimes you can do that, but in this like off the cuff moment, that's really hard. I just always am thinking of like, ways to help my kids handle needing to flex. And I don't know the right answer necessarily. Like when it's like in moments like that, like what did you learn would be like helpful for next time when you feel like, uh, yeah.

[00:31:00] Yeah. Is there anything, or it's sort of like, this is what we're both learning is how to adapt both myself and him in these moments. 

[00:31:08] Alyssa: I first of all need a springboard from you because we, when Sgio was really little, we did a lot of visual routine boards and he loved them. We had a calendar that was for him.

[00:31:21] We still use the emotion cards. Um, and we had a routine visual and that was very helpful for him because he gets flooded and overwhelmed with the verbal stimulation. So if I am just like talking to him, that's not as helpful for Mila. I can talk to her for her. A visual board would be supportive for sure, but it would be more supportive for cg.

[00:31:50] Yeah, for the way that his nervous system works, where when he starts to get flooded, having a visual and not language would be very helpful for him. And. Honestly, what I would do if it's like, all right, I don't have a visual in place this morning. What would I do differently besides feed him food earlier is to come up and say, oh my goodness, but I made a mistake.

[00:32:18] You usually have breakfast up here and we didn't. We can do one of these plans and you can help me choose. We can have breakfast up here, and then when we go downstairs, we won't have a lot of time to play. Or we can go down and have breakfast downstairs and you can play while you're like eating breakfast.

[00:32:42] Which one of those sounds right to you? 

[00:32:45] Jennie: Yeah. 

[00:32:45] Alyssa: That's what I could have done differently, but again, like even more supportive for him would be a visual where I could show that. Right. Yeah. So I guess you're right for verbal. She's like, affirm everything for me. Right. Talk to me all day long. Let's talking through it, me and everything.

[00:33:04] And he's like, stop talking to me. 

[00:33:06] Jennie: Right? Like, you're right. I was like thinking, you know, you weren't gonna like bring over the springboard in the throes, but beforehand, right? Mm-hmm. I should know this already, and I I do. But I was more thinking of you in like the adjective of like, here we are. Yeah. It is harder to be like, okay, I forgot to feed him.

[00:33:26] Let's wa lemme invite him over to his visual routine board to show him that we're still gonna be able to do X, Y, and Z. We're just changing the location. Yeah. That's like gold, right? To be able to, yeah. Have him sort of tangibly see, you know, I think visuals are like just tangible. Even if they're not touching the actual thing, which in this case they can touch the tiles, but you know what I mean?

[00:33:47] They're not like touching the play and the food, whatever. Those are abstract ideas, but having a visual for that makes it more tangible. And so he knows that just because we're going upstairs, it doesn't mean we're letting go of the other elements. We're switching it, but here we're still gonna do it.

[00:34:05] Yeah. I mean that's huge. And to do it like preemptively, you're right. Also, this is sort of the trick, but I say that visual routine boards, yes, it's for what we're talking about, but it's really that moment of having, if you brought him over, is you're connecting before the onslaught of like, now I'm, you know, gonna have to give you options that are different from what you're used to.

[00:34:28] You've sort of like fueled him up with this like connection time. And then kind of broke the news and gave options, right. It takes more effort for sure than just like, come on, we're gonna go upstairs now. Like, correct. And so that's hard in theory to really execute, but once you do, you probably can avoid the 20 minute tantrum and make it to the workout.

[00:34:49] Alyssa: It's like, do I pour the work in a little bit beforehand and then have a potentially easier time, or do I not, and then I have a 20 minute meltdown. It's again, with the playful transitions, like, if I do this playfully, it's done. Yeah, we're done. And it just takes a little more of my brain power to do it playfully then like, all right, let's go get ready for bath or whatever.

[00:35:13] If I'm like, oh my gosh, today when you were at school. I was practicing and I am the fastest person in the family. I know I can beat you upstairs to go up for Tubby. And he's like, no, I'm a cheetah. And like then we're in it and he's up the stairs. But if I'm like, alright, bud, timed that up for Tubby, and he is like, no, I want five more minutes, I want whatever.

[00:35:33] Then it just is like if I pour in a little bit proactively, yes, there's often such a huge payoff and that's what I look at with any visuals with our visual boards using our emotion cards. I'm like in the moment it's a pain in the butt when my kid's having a hard time to like go snag the emotion cards and add this step into our process.

[00:35:52] And when I do, it is a game changer for both of my humans that they are like, yeah, I feel sad or disappointed and here's my calm card or whatever. And they can navigate it with a visual so much easier than they can navigate it with just my words. 

[00:36:11] Jennie: Yeah. I think also on that note, it's because. It's sort of like once they have this visual to navigate it with and what you're saying, it doesn't need to be something that they're like keeping in a corner of their head.

[00:36:24] Right. It's like sort of outsourcing it. Like I'm putting this out there and now I can like Exactly. Right. Process the other things. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, the way you just put that and with like the feelings and the com card, it's like, I don't have to like just have this in here. That's just so much, you know, much.

[00:36:40] I find my younger daughter, like I could see when it's so much, you know, and when she's dealing with that, but also listening to all the conversations that she'll actually just be like, everyone stop talking, you know, in her own screaming words. But I know it's 'cause it's just too much. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so being able to sort of like outsource visuals or like com parts is just it, it makes so much sense.

[00:37:03] Alyssa: It's huge. And this is where I'm not a lie that I need one of your boards because I feel like we got out of habit with it as we got into routines with him and I was like, okay. He knows the routine. 

[00:37:14] Jennie: Yeah. But 

[00:37:15] Alyssa: inevitably there are changes in them. It, we have like brought them back during changes in routine where when we had Mila for instance, and we were shifting some routines in our family or when just like the bedtime routine changed where he wasn't wearing a diaper anymore, things like that.

[00:37:33] He got a different bed, we stopped nursing. Then we've brought back visuals for him, right. When it's been a new routine. But I don't think we've done a great job using them in the day-to-day to support the cognitive flexibility of like plan A, plan B. 

[00:37:53] Jennie: Yeah. And yeah, it requires like maintaining it and mm-hmm.

[00:37:58] You know. I wouldn't even say more work on our part, but different work on our part. Yeah. I actually think it unlocks space for less work, you know? But it's just like any system, which is really hard for me. Sort of this like executive functioning skill. Yeah. Lack thereof. Like you put in the system because it unlocks so much more.

[00:38:18] And that's really like what it does and helps to teach our kids from a young age. I mean, even my girls sometimes I'll be like, you know, I try to do it every Sunday like it's time to set up our springboard for the following week. And sometimes that, you know, goes by the wayside. But then I'll try to like sort of replenish it for all of us.

[00:38:38] Like we just did it last week after their dancer recs, like what is our schedule? And I actually, that was more daunting to me than them. They were having so much fun going through all the tiles. Like we could go to the museum, we could do this. And I was putting it off 'cause I was like, I don't even know what their schedule's gonna be next week.

[00:38:54] But that was okay. And so I think, yeah, it, it. Feel like a lot to put in to like, when you think of systems, but I really think especially for kids who need it, really need that visual. It, it helps so much. 

[00:39:10] Alyssa: Yeah. And it gives us like a jumping off point too, where I do better when we have an idea, like what is the routine, what are we going do?

[00:39:18] And to have that in place is huge. And then it's looking as they, you know, get older at like, where do I allow for, and this is the like childhood stuff coming up. Like for instance, Sage gets himself dressed, which means we've got backwards shorts on as he is leaving the house or the shirt's on backwards.

[00:39:38] Or he went through a phase last year where he wanted to wear one shoe on one foot and a different shoe on the other foot. And I'm just, I'm watching it and I'm like, I wanna fix all of this. I want to step in and turn those shorts around. And I'll say things like. Your underwear are on backwards. If that feels comfortable for you, you can keep it.

[00:39:59] If it starts to feel uncomfortable, you can turn them around. 

[00:40:02] Jennie: Yes. Oh my God, that is huge. It's preparing, right? It's not dictating. 

[00:40:09] Mm-hmm. Or whatever alternatives. 

[00:40:12] Right? Like not micromanaging or controlling. Yes. I just shared how last week we had both the girls dance recital, and if you are not in the dance world in this way, like every costume has lots of elements.

[00:40:26] The bow, the tights, the shoes, the hair, the, it's like just a lot. And getting the right bow with the right outfit. Long story short, we're on our way to the recital and we're in the car and I see Tess like sheepishly looking at me and I'm like, oh, what are you looking at? Thinking She's just like admiring mommy and she.

[00:40:43] Look down and she had been picking at her tights and there was a huge hole in the nude specific costume type that we had been saving. It took so much to not make this about me, so, oh, you're picking your tights. Let's, let's stop because this hole could get bigger. I was like, it's totally okay. It does not matter how it looks, but just so you know, this could get bigger and you might wanna take them off when you're backstage and you don't have socks for those sneakers.

[00:41:13] And then I was like, in my head, now what I'm telling her that she's gonna be in pain during anyway, I was just, then she got a little bit caught up and, and I was trying to prepare her, but also like trying to also be like, why did you do that? And probably there was like some shame in there. Sure. I did a whole post on this because I realized once we pulled up and all her friends were there and I was like, oh, go run up.

[00:41:34] Like say hi. She was about to run so excited and started hiding her legs. I had probably both her and I combined successfully made her feel really negative about it. Sure. So there's a way to like prepare. And not shame. And it sounds like you really did that, right? You were just like, if that's comfortable.

[00:41:53] Right. Sometimes I, we not always, I'm sure there's times we don't. Long story short, someone gave her a new pair of backstage, but I had no idea how she'd show up on stage. And it was really monumental to me that she got herself unstuck because I clearly, it was very hard for me to get unstuck. She went backstage.

[00:42:09] My husband's like, Jen, we are going, we have to leave. We will be back to watch. You can't, she's backstage.

[00:42:18] So for this example that you're talking about with Sage, like I probably up until like wherever he was going would be like, so they're still on backwards. Like you could like, do you know what I mean? Hundred percent. Just so you know how we doing? You uncomfortable over there. What's uh Right. Like I did not have to probably tell her this hole's gonna get bigger.

[00:42:35] You met like, I think deep down it was because I was just like totally couldn't let go. 

[00:42:42] Alyssa: When it's like, how much do I prepare them? Like right. Where's the stopping point? And in the moment, that's so hard to find. Like so hard. And I'm a silence filler. Like my natural instinct. Yeah. Is that as they go quiet, I'm gonna keep talking and.

[00:42:59] I have to work so hard to just, just shut up Alyssa for a second. Just pause 

[00:43:07] Jennie: and just let it be, right. I mean, two things there. It's like when are we really preparing and when are we trying to convince our kid Adam? Like whatever, like snafu we think that they've gotten themselves into, right? Like if her whole had gotten bigger, she would've figured out backstage.

[00:43:21] There's adults there. It's not like just kids running wild, right? I had to just trust that. And the second thing is with like the talking, I'm so like that too, to the point. I mean, I think my kids are a little bit older than yours. Like now we'll just say to me. Attention. Stop talking. 

[00:43:36] Alyssa: Yeah. Hundred percent.

[00:43:37] Sage will say it too. Stop saying your plan. 

[00:43:40] Jennie: I'm like, okay. Yeah. Yes. I'm like, you're right. I'm trying to tell you that I'm gonna stop talking. She's like, just stop. Good. Truly that happened. I was gonna say, I'm gonna stop talking because it's not helping you. And it's like, she's like, just stop. 

[00:43:55] Alyssa: Don't, you don't have to gimme the warning that you're going to, oh, it's so real though.

[00:44:00] We just, we project out too. We were at the lake this weekend and Sie was gonna go into the water in his keen and in like shorts and a t-shirt and it doesn't matter. My view is like, kids get messy, clothes get messy. Both can be cleaned. And we had enough clothes to navigate that and all that jazz. And so he's going in, in Zach sick, giving him all these warnings, like, the water's gonna be cold, your jeans are gonna get wet, they're probably gonna be uncomfortable, and your feet, whatever.

[00:44:29] And. I was like, are you hoping he just won't play in the water? Why can we see it when other people do it? Because we're on the outside. Right? It's so much. And he was like, well, he's gonna be so uncomfortable. And I was like, you would be so uncomfortable, right? If if you had wet jeans, if you had wet clothes, you would be so uncomfortable.

[00:44:50] Let's see how he feels. If he's uncomfortable, we've got close. Like this is a solvable. And he's like, okay. Yep, yep, yep. Okay. 

[00:44:58] Jennie: That is just so hard to do. We just forget just, and we project our in our own ways so that when the other one's projecting and it's not one of our projections, we're seeing so clearly and then we're in it.

[00:45:08] We're like, no, this is different. 

[00:45:11] Alyssa: He's definitely gonna be, and like, what's the worst that happened? Yeah. He's uncomfortable. Right. That 

[00:45:17] Jennie: makes they, that's part of life, right? Mm-hmm. And I don't even mean it in this like tough way. No. This is just, we are not gonna always be able to fix. Yeah. Yes. I mean, even Tess was saying to me with the tight thing, she's like, mom, you're saying all this over tights.

[00:45:31] Like she was, I was like, you're right. But I was like, no, it's about the shoes. And it was just me. It was about 

[00:45:37] Alyssa: the Totally. Yeah. And it's the talking that we can't just like pause and be like, I don't, maybe I don't need to say more, but it's so hard for me to do that in the moment. Yes. Afterward I can be like, I could have paused way earlier, but, uh, and that we're able different human in the moment.

[00:45:55] Totally. 

[00:45:57] Jennie: And that we can see it when it's other people. I mean, it reminds me of the whole thing that is such a trigger for me when adults will tell my kids, like, be careful 

[00:46:05] over and 

[00:46:05] over about things or. Or just, I don't know, like safety things that I don't know why. And that's a big thing for me 'cause I'm like the antithesis of that.

[00:46:14] And I'll say it to my husband, like, what do you think's gonna happen? And he's always receptive and he'll be like, you're right. He'll talk through. And yet if anyone were to say that to me when I'm in the throw of it, I'd be like, no, this is what's gonna ha. You know, I feel conviction. But yeah, we all, there's always stuff, no one's not bringing something to the table 

[00:46:36] Alyssa: and it's just like, how much capacity do I have in the moment to navigate my own stuff Right.

[00:46:41] As to how I really show up. Thank goodness for repair. Thank 

[00:46:46] Jennie: goodness. 

[00:46:46] Alyssa: Oh real. Well thank you for doing this work, for having this conversation. It is, I think so helpful to know like. There isn't a single human on the planet who's like, here's the parent I wanna be, and this is who I am every day in every moment.

[00:47:01] And but it's okay to be striving for like, yeah, these are ways I wanna show up and I'm not gonna do that all the time. And that's okay too. 

[00:47:12] Jennie: Totally. I mean, it was a breath of fresh air to hear that from you too. Someone I look up to so much. Yes. So thank you for, for sharing. Totally. For me to feel like I have an open forum about this and I hope that when people listen to both of us, it's like, okay, yeah, it's all of us.

[00:47:30] And that really, I'm hoping people just, you miss Yeah. And that no one's afraid to do like the self-reflective work and then to make a mistake again, right? Like 

[00:47:38] Alyssa: Correct. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Doing the work doesn't mean it doesn't come back up. We just hopefully sometimes become a little more conscious of it.

[00:47:47] It gets a little easier to navigate sometimes. 

[00:47:51] Jennie: Absolutely. 

[00:47:51] Alyssa: Thank you. 

[00:47:52] Jennie: And I need to get you a springboard, so let's make that a follow up item. I would love, let's do it for you and Sage to love to really unlock a lot from it. And I wanna make this happen. Yes. 

[00:48:03] Alyssa: And I'm just to come hang out with you on your podcast.

[00:48:06] Jennie: Me too. And in real life it's the second time meeting, but just love being able to chat in person, so I can't wait for that. 

[00:48:14] Alyssa: Stay tuned. After this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:48:24] Uh, we're coming up on, you know, big old travel season here for Mee and I'm basically gonna be in and out of Vermont for like, just over a month. And, you know, past Alyssa had so much guilt around traveling and I'm super grateful for the work I've done because I feel no guilt about these trips now, and I've got tools and visuals and things in place for the kids and systems in place and think a, I am a better mom when I get to do stuff that fills me up.

[00:48:59] B, I believe so freaking deeply in this work. As people are like diving into the book and reaching out and sharing takeaways and whatnot, it is so cool. Like to hear the early reader's feedback and things that are hitting home for them. And uh, there are a few schools that we work with got early reader access and things that they've taken from it and then are implementing and how it's shifting.

[00:49:24] The questions they ask themselves is so powerful and I see me traveling and me sharing this work and me making sure we can get this work and book. But also just the work as a whole in as many spaces, as many hands as possible is actually a gift for my children. 

[00:49:45] Rachel: I was just gonna say like, okay, you're not there serving them dinner, but you're out there like changing the culture of our world when it comes to how we treat children.

[00:49:54] Alyssa: And that feels pretty powerful and cool. We had this example that just came up recently that I was like, yes, a school we're working with. They have been, you know, the cafeteria is often a time for most of the schools where there's big behaviors happen and we often don't have adequate training and support for folks that are working in the cafeteria.

[00:50:15] And then inherently it's an overstimulating space and kids will go there and it's loud and there's so much going on and there's the social dynamics of it all. And then they leave and sometimes they've gotten behavior support calls. Sometimes they're coming back and they're just dysregulated coming back into the classroom.

[00:50:33] And we end up with challenging behaviors right after. So we're seeing all these trends and patterns across schools. And one school that we're working with, they had before been looking at like what disciplinary practices needed to be put in place for the cafeteria to decrease these behaviors. It was all they looked at like reward systems and could they get everyone to be working toward a common goal with rewards.

[00:50:58] And then when that wasn't working, then they were looking at like punishments and like, what's the disciplinary action that would be taken? And then we got to dive into a bunch of work with them. And this year the principal on their own came and said, oh my gosh, I have an idea for the cafeteria. I got these little mini like iPod things that have headphones.

[00:51:23] The kids can sign it out and they can listen and it, the only thing they can hear from it is like calming music that'll be connected to a Bluetooth in the cafeteria. And I was like, oh my gosh. Yes. And we have more work we can do in the cafeteria, right? We can provide alternate seating. There's more work that we can do from a sensory perspective.

[00:51:47] She kickstarted instead of saying, how do we get this behavior to stop with punishments or rewards, and instead said, how do we get this behavior to shift by meeting the kids' sensory needs? Mm-hmm. I was like, yes, it's happening. Yeah. That's because that carries over into policies, right? Like that carries over into the rest of school.

[00:52:05] It's not just limited to cafeteria. If you start to look at behavior and say, how do I get it to stop by meeting their needs? It a hundred percent shifts our entire approach to kids. 

[00:52:16] Rachel: Absolutely. And it shifts the child's perspective of themselves. It's not, I'm a problem at lunch, so I always get in trouble at lunch.

[00:52:24] It's lunch is hard for me, so here's this tool that my teacher gave me so that it's a little bit easier for me. 

[00:52:31] Alyssa: A hundred percent, yes. Love it. Isn't that cool? And that it isn't just like you, you don't have to have an IEP or a 5 0 4. Anyone can sign them out and have access. And all the kids in that elementary school, their families have filled out the regulation questionnaire.

[00:52:47] So we also know going in who might be sound sensitive, where we might say, Hey, when you're in the cafeteria, remember those headphones are there if you wanna listen to some music and kind of zone out a little bit if it's feeling loud. Yeah, love, love, love getting to do this work. And yeah, just not carrying guilt around traveling.

[00:53:06] I also like pulled back and looked at just for myself, talking about being a numbers human. As we were talking about in the last episode. I am a numbers human and I just wrote out like how many hours I'm with my kids in a normal like week. Like actively parenting. I do pickups, I do drop offs like I do, I'm off Fridays with them and all this.

[00:53:32] And I literally wrote out the numbers and then looked at how often Zach's with the kids and just compared the numbers. I was like, gosh, I'm with them so much more. And he carries no guilt, not like, ah, I'm not seeing my kids enough. 'cause he is going to work nine to five and not doing pickups, not doing drop offs and coming home at five.

[00:53:55] And it is what it is to him. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I have a meeting that goes till three 15, I'm not gonna be able to get him till three 30. And I feel stress about that. It's the 

[00:54:03] Rachel: water you swimming because Yes, culturally it is accepted and encouraged for dads to be career driven. Mm-hmm. And as moms, we often then are balancing our own careers with being the default parent.

[00:54:22] Mm-hmm. Where we do feel pulled in multiple directions and it's so easy to get into a mindset of guilt or like you're failing because you're not here, there, and everywhere all at the same time. 'cause you're one person. 

[00:54:38] Alyssa: Exactly. And when I looked at the hours, I was like, yeah, I can go travel for work for a little bit.

[00:54:43] Like we're, they're gonna be okay. They are seeing enough of me in their world and we'll all be okay from this. But the, the numbers is helpful for that part of my brain that wants to see it in like concrete terms. 

[00:54:56] Rachel: Yeah. 'cause it's a fact. Like you factually you spend more time with your children than he does.

[00:55:02] Yeah. And it's okay to balance the scales a little bit and Yeah. Travel for work also, like it would also be okay to travel for recreation. I just wanna put that out there. Oh, a hundred percent. Like, oh yeah. But just to like be away from them. Yes. And your fills you. But I'm just saying like. Cody never feels guilty for work trips.

[00:55:21] It's just like, here's where I have to go and these are the dates and like that's it. And when I have to leave I'm like, ah, it's gonna be hard for the kids without me and is X, Y, and Z gonna happen? And what if he has to work late and like pick up time happens at this time. He's not usually outta work.

[00:55:37] And then I'm like, yeah, these are logistics that I figure out every single day. And yeah, I trust that he can figure them out for a couple of days. 

[00:55:46] Alyssa: I also have had to like really do some real work on the me part of this because there is a part of me that's like has the narratives of, well, a good mom does bedtime.

[00:55:59] A good mom knows X, Y, and Z about their kids. The other day this came up where Zach was saying, Zach does, um, bath and bedtime with both kids and we, they do it individually. It is not the right move for it to happen together for these two humans. And they just. Very much. It makes everybody's life harder.

[00:56:21] And so Mila gets a Tubby first and then she comes downstairs and hangs with me and watches and miss Rachel and has some milk and chills and sage goes up to Tubby and then Zach puts him down and then comes down and gets her and brings her up to bed. I used to put her to bed and then when I stopped nursing her to sleep, we made the shift and it's been great for me.

[00:56:46] 'cause I'm the one who, if somebody's away for bedtime, it's usually me, whether I'm presenting at night or have an event or whatever. Whereas Zach is gone from them more consistently during the day, but he's. Almost always there at nighttime. Mm-hmm. And so for him to do bedtime is just very consistent. And he was sharing something about Mila and something she's been into and then went into like, oh yeah, and Sage and I have been reading this book at night and he thinks it's really funny and yada yada.

[00:57:14] 'cause I had mentioned something that Sage had said. He was like, oh yeah, it's from this book we've been writing. And I had this like ping in my gut of like, he's reading books and I'm not a part of like his world. I don't know what's happening in that part of his world. And I didn't know that Mila liked to play this game up in the tub.

[00:57:31] And I'm supposed to know everything about them and everything that's happening with them and whatever. And I like noticed it and I was like, oh yeah. I remember being on the flip side of that when Sage was an infant and me sharing things with Zach and him being like, oh. And I'm like, oh yeah, he's learned to do that.

[00:57:51] 'cause I was with him all the time. And translating. Oh, this is what, when he says this, this is what that is. This is the word he is saying or whatever. Oh yeah. I knew him in and out and up and down. And now there are things he shares with Zach and things she shares with Zach that I'm not a part of. 

[00:58:12] Jennie: Yeah.

[00:58:14] Alyssa: And I had these narratives that that's not what a good mom is. 

[00:58:20] Rachel: Yeah. I really struggled with this when my kids started school, when I felt like they had a whole life outside of me. And not that I feel like it's healthy for me to be their whole world, but I wanted to know everything about their world.

[00:58:38] Alyssa: Right. A hundred percent. What if something happens and I can't process with them because I don't know that it happened or exactly whatever. 

[00:58:45] Rachel: What if they have a hard time and they're not able to tell me and then I don't know that it happened and I can't help them? Or even like. Wanting to know the ins and outs, and I don't wanna be like a nosy mom, so I'm not gonna like grill my kids.

[00:58:59] But like it's hard for me knowing that like there are social dynamics that they don't always share with me. And yeah, I hate it. I hate it too. I think it's so ingrained in us specifically as women and mothers, that we should know all the things about our kids and be there for all the things. And yeah, it makes sense that you had that like gut, like, ah, like there's this piece of them that I'm not a part of, and does that mean I'm doing something wrong?

[00:59:31] What does that say about my identity as a mom? Or like when their teachers share something that happened at school and I don't know the context of it, and I'm just like, yeah, you know, 

[00:59:43] Alyssa: a hundred percent. And I also have people in my life who, because they want to. Know everything that their kids can experience and be in the know and make sure that they are always the person the kid comes to, to process into whatever that they have had a hard time letting their kid exist without them and outside of them out in the world.

[01:00:08] And I have seen that modeled for me in a couple different spaces. And I also really don't want that for my relationship with my kids. And one of the things I look back on from my childhood, when I think about legacy blessings and legacy burdens, one of my legacy blessings was the independence I experienced.

[01:00:28] I would like to pull it a little more to the middle and let my kid know that, you know, I see them in this world and um, would like to also be a part of their world. And I love that. I felt like my parents trusted me to handle things. 

[01:00:47] Jennie: Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:48] Alyssa: I wish, again, there was a balance of like, and I'm here if you feel like you can't, but when I wanted to study abroad to Austria and I didn't know German and I was 15 years old and we couldn't afford it, they were like, yeah, absolutely.

[01:01:01] How are you gonna fundraise for it and what's your plan for it? And believed that I could do it, and then I didn't. It was one of the best experiences of my life. 

[01:01:09] Rachel: Yeah. 

[01:01:10] Alyssa: Because they let me have wings to fly. 

[01:01:13] Rachel: Yeah. It's so hard in those moments where you get that feeling of like, ah, I'm missing something.

[01:01:21] But I do think it's very important and I, I don't like to spend a lot of my time parenting. Like I don't want this to sound like it's fear-based. Like I don't want my, I don't want my kid to turn into an adult who does X, Y, and Z, but I don't want my kid to turn into an adult who doesn't feel self-assured or who is constantly doubting their ability to show up in the world.

[01:01:43] And I would much rather. Stretch them and have them experience things now that are difficult where they can still come back to me as like their home base and I can teach them to process it and help them move through it if necessary. I don't want to have a kid who is 18 and going to college and I have micromanaged every aspect of their life and now they're basically a newborn and they are out of my house and have to function and they don't know how.

[01:02:13] Alyssa: And I also want it to be true that there will be parts of my kid that I don't know very well, right? That there are going to be parts down the road of like their sexual life. I don't need to know that. I wanna make sure they're safe. I wanna make sure that they're supported, that I'm here if they need to turn to me all batch as, but there are gonna be parts of them or interests or things happening in their world 

[01:02:37] Rachel: crushes right now for me.

[01:02:38] Yes. Yeah, exactly. I know Nora's crush, so I didn't even know that she had a crush until I had to give her a couple of her friends a ride home from school the other day. And they were talking about it in the backseat together, but like not naming the name. And one of her friends was like, miss Rachel, do you know Norris Crush?

[01:02:55] And I was like, no, she doesn't have to tell me who she has a crush on. If she wants to keep it private, she can. And she was like, you're 

[01:03:02] Jennie: like, but please tell me. Please tell me. Please tell me. 

[01:03:04] Rachel: But if you wanna share it with me, 

[01:03:07] Alyssa: I'm here. I mean, I'm here if you're interested in sharing that. 

[01:03:09] Rachel: And it's really hard.

[01:03:11] But this actually, like a year ago, things with crushes were coming up at school and I asked Nora if she had a crush and she was like, I do, but I feel embarrassed and I really don't wanna tell you who it's, and I was like, totally, you don't have to, you don't have to share things like that. You can keep those private.

[01:03:27] And just kind of went over with her, like, what are things that she, experiences that she does need to share, like from a safety perspective and reminding her of like, here's one I do need to know and everything else. If you wanna keep it private, that's your prerogative. Which is hard for me because that's not really the family culture that I grew up in.

[01:03:44] But I do think that it's important, at least for me in our family culture, to set the stage now. Mm-hmm. That you don't have to share everything with me. Just by virtue of being your parent doesn't mean that I am entitled to No. Every personal detail about your life. 

[01:04:03] Alyssa: Mine was the opposite. Where it was like, please don't share any personal detail because that would be so vulnerable.

[01:04:08] I wouldn't, that's What's your name 

[01:04:09] Rachel: again? 

[01:04:10] Alyssa: Who are you again? Yeah, exactly. Who are you, Eric, Brian. Andrew, Alyssa. There we go. Yeah, so I fall on the opposite. So I feel like I'm on the opposite of the spectrum, but similarly trying to do something different than how I was raised. And my parents for, for them parenting was making sure we had a safe home and there was never physical abuse that I experienced or any emotional abuse.

[01:04:40] And there was food on the table and a roof over my head, and they showed up at every single soccer game and encouraged me and supported me to do my best and whatnot, and believed in me, but they didn't ask any questions to know me. And still today, like they don't. Too vulnerable know how to do that. Yeah.

[01:05:01] It's way too vulnerable. In fact, I think it's easier for them to ask, they probably know more about strangers they've met at a restaurant than me in some areas, because it's easier to ask those questions or get to know somebody where it doesn't feel as vulnerable 

[01:05:17] Rachel: for them. Yeah. Or like I think for parents of adult children when like, I feel like I've seen this in my own parents.

[01:05:26] When your child has certain like interest or attributes or let's say like they're parenting very differently than they were parented. Mm-hmm. Then I think that the parents of adult children are having their own identity pulled into question internally, and so they avoid delving into some of those topics because it causes them to have to look at things about themselves that maybe they don't wanna look at.

[01:05:50] A 

[01:05:51] Alyssa: hundred percent. Yeah. It's uncomfortable. Oh, man. Crushes. Yeah. Who are we talking about today, by the way? Oh, yeah. 

[01:05:57] Rachel: Um, Jennie. Jennie Mon. Yeah. Mon process, which actually this kind of ties in, it's the emotional work it does of everyday parenting. And this is the kind of stuff where it's like, would it matter if I demanded that Nora tell me her crush at this age?

[01:06:15] Maybe not. But I do want to cultivate a certain type of relationship with her. And I think the emotional work of parenthood comes into these like micro decisions, like mm-hmm. Is this a hill I'm gonna die on? Am I gonna make her tell me this personal information because I feel like I wanna know it? Or am I gonna do something different?

[01:06:35] Because down the road I want her to know that I'm here for her, but that I'm not gonna pry, or I don't want her to ever feel like she has to start sneaking around or hiding because I. Pry and be like annoying and make her feel bad if she doesn't tell me something or I don't know. I just, this is the mental load I think of parenting in, in this stage that I'm in with her.

[01:07:02] Alyssa: It is interesting 'cause the mental load shifts as they get older, right? From like diapers and wipes and how do I cut their food so it's safe at this age or whatever, to who am I raising, what relationship do I wanna have with them, and how do the conversations and ways I show up with them in relationship now change that or affect that or lay the foundation for that.

[01:07:31] And it is, I think in some ways so much harder as a mental load because it's less task oriented. Of like, okay, yep. Ordered their diapers. Check it's, oh man, have we chatted about their bodies and how to be safe and who are safe people to talk to and how to navigate that? Or have we chatted about feeling left out?

[01:08:00] Or man, they just walked in the door and something's up clearly happened at school. What am I supposed to do right now? How am I supposed to in this moment show up in a way that fosters that relationship I wanna have with them? And like, I don't know, the Solid Starts app was really helpful for me when they were little to know like, how do I put this cucumber, right?

[01:08:21] Yeah. How do I, do I steam this potato so that they won't choke, give them a carrot. And now it's like, what do you do in those moments? That is the, here's how you support your unique child, right? I'm gonna put this out into the world because I have a dream. I have a dream of a seed app. 'cause we get these messages all the time in dms, right?

[01:08:43] Of like, oh my God, what would Alyssa do? Or, tell me what to do here. I have a dream of a seed app that I can train that is like a little seed expert that you could type in in that moment. A question to, in the same way that you look up in your food app of how to cut that thing. And in my absolute dream world, you could take your regulation questionnaire for all the humans in your family.

[01:09:08] And so you could say like Nora, and it would already know how her nervous system works, just walked in the door and said X, Y, and Z. It notes how old Nora is, how her nervous system works and can say, oh man, here's a good way to support Nora. 

[01:09:21] Rachel: Obsessed love, 

[01:09:23] Alyssa: right? Yeah. 

[01:09:23] Rachel: Because it's so different depending on nervous system.

[01:09:26] Like Yeah. You know, Nora is a kid who internalizes shame easily. She's very, very emotionally sensitive. There are all of these layers that go into like just as an example, okay, so she's going to outdoor school. So yesterday she's like, well, you help me pack. I'm like, totally. So I laid out everything that was on the list, but I left it out for her to like go through and approve and make sure that she liked all of it.

[01:09:48] So we were like, tag teaming this. So last night I'm like, do you have everything that you need for outdoor school tomorrow? She said, yes. I said, okay, great. This morning Cody had left, which I will give her. It's out of routine for him to leave early in the morning. She's like, mom, my Birkenstocks that I need for outdoor school are in dad's work truck.

[01:10:08] And because I know that she internalizes shame easily and is very sensitive, I had to be intentional about how I set it. So I said, no. 

[01:10:20] Alyssa: Instead of, Hey, remember how last night I said, do you have everything set? And you said Yes. 

[01:10:26] Rachel: So instead of 

[01:10:27] Alyssa: that, what did you say? 

[01:10:29] Rachel: I, well, that's what was happening inside my head, because this is a normal occurrence for this girl.

[01:10:32] So there's a lot of bubbling rage under the surface. But I said, Noni, I'm saying this with love and I'm not mad at you, but last night when I asked you if everything was ready, the answer was actually no, because your Birkenstocks were in dad's truck and everything else that you needed was in a pile in your room.

[01:10:52] And she was like, well, I thought that I would be driving with dad this morning. I'm like, totally, I understand. In the normal routine you would've been and you would've been able to snag them. But for future reference, if you're packing for something and I ask you if everything is ready, I mean, even the stuff that you think is in the vehicle that's gonna be driven to the place, that also needs to be taken out of the vehicle and put with the stuff in case there's a last vehicle change.

[01:11:18] And she was like. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But if I had been like, how many times did I tell you to get all of your stuff? It would've turned into this like, and like exploded because she internalizes shame so easily and when she feels shame, she goes into fight mode. Her nervous system. Oh right. 

[01:11:35] Alyssa: Yeah. Full rage. 

[01:11:36] Rachel: Her nervous system is like, I notice a threat and I'm ready to fight to the death.

[01:11:40] Do not tell me what to do. And this is all the attitude that I inherited from you genetically. And here it is in your face. And, and wouldn't it be great to have an app that already knew that she internalizes shame and that she goes into fight mode? And to be able to say like, I need specific language to help me get this conversation started.

[01:12:00] Alyssa: Yeah. So if you're a listener and you create apps, you wanna come shoot me a DM, obsessed, and let's make this happen. 

[01:12:06] Rachel: Okay. This ties into another takeaway from this episode, was her talking about. Her kid had this dance recital and they had been like saving the special tights, and I know the tights she's talking about, they're like expensive special, like dance recital tights because my nieces are in dance, so I know what these tights are like.

[01:12:22] And she had like, looked back and her kid had like been picking a hole in them

[01:12:28] and it just, it resonated. Um, sure. So Abel's playing soccer for the first time this year, and I obviously have done all of the emotional and mental labor of finding him shin guards and making sure that he has cleats that fit and making sure he has socks. And like, it hasn't just been like the straightforward, like, I'm gonna go to Dick's Sporting Goods and drop like a billion dollars on it.

[01:12:50] I've been like trying to like, find deals because obviously he's gonna outgrow them before next year. So like, you know, Facebook marketplace and whatever else. So I'm like, buddy, let's, let's practice your soccer outfit. So we put them on. My interceptive child because the thickness of the socks are different.

[01:13:08] He can feel a difference in the inside sole of his cleat. And he's flipping out. He's like, this is why I can't play soccer. This is why I didn't play soccer last year, which is fully not true. You can't play until you're in first grade. Um, he, he's like, I need you to get rid of that bump in my cleat. And I was like, buddy, it's part of the cleat.

[01:13:33] It's always been there. And he's worn his cleats before, just not with these socks. So I'm like, I think that you probably need a thicker sock, right? So I'm trying to stay really calm and regulated, but there's part of me inside that's like, I did all the work to find all this equipment for soccer, and I signed you up and I paid for it, and I'm the one who's gonna be bringing you to practice and you're out here.

[01:13:58] Throwing an absolute fit about a tiny microscopic bump in the inside of your cleat. That's what part of my internal narrative was. So I was just like, like, suck it. I don't not 

[01:14:08] Alyssa: deal with the bump. Yeah. 

[01:14:09] Rachel: Like, are you kidding me right now? Are you kidding me? But I have to remember, and if I asked the app what to do, it would remind me that Abel has a sensitive interceptive system.

[01:14:20] And so that tiny little bump that I can barely feel with my finger feels like a rock to him. Anyway, we figured it out together, we discovered that thicker socks were the key. We got the thicker socks. He requested different shin guards, which, okay, yep. If that's what it takes for you to be able to play soccer.

[01:14:38] Buy another perishing guards. The real test will be tomorrow and it's actual practice, which happens after school when he's dysregulated. Yeah, it's tough. Well, the thick socks be enough. Only time will tell. But when she expressed what she was feeling in the moment when she had like done the prep to get these tights and like been them and then there was the hole and that internal experience of like, man, I do so much for you.

[01:15:03] And you make things really difficult sometimes. 

[01:15:06] Alyssa: Yeah. And like in my childhood, no one was gonna get me a different pair of socks or slow down and help figure it out. Like, come on, you got the socks, you're lucky we got the socks. Be grateful that we've come this far. Like all that, there's nothing to be upset 

[01:15:20] Rachel: about.

[01:15:20] Would've been the, this isn't something to get upset about. You don't need to get upset about this. I didn't say that out loud, but I did say Abel, if you just wear them for a while, you'll probably get used to it. No. In the history of him being intercepted sensitive, has he ever gotten used to something like that?

[01:15:34] No. Zero times, but for some reason this time I was like, lemme see if I can just gaslight it different this time. Yeah. 

[01:15:41] Alyssa: Castlight him into it. We had friends over this past weekend and they have a kiddo who is high sensory seeking and high connection seeking, and then they have a kid who is sensory sensitive and predominantly goes into fight mode when they're sensory sensitive.

[01:15:58] Once justed, and it had rained like all day long and so I said, Hey, if you wanna bring brain suits or whatever, sage's probably gonna even wanna play in the rain. And so SIE and the high sensory seeker were playing there like a month apart. They're off playing. The sensory sensitive kids a few months older than beans and had gotten her clothes wet because she didn't wanna wear a rain suit, she doesn't like how it feels.

[01:16:26] And then gotten her clothes wet and immediately had to come in and change. And Zach was like, we'll throw 'em in the dryer, or whatever. I was still outside with the kids and then I come in and she's just naked in my house and I was like, would you like some like cozy clothes to wear? And she was like, yeah.

[01:16:41] And so we have, you know, bins of clothes from our kids and pulled out some jammies that she was super stoked about. Then all the kids were going back outside after we ate dinner and she wanted to go out and you could see this. And she was like, walked out in her pajamas. And then she was like on my back deck, like wrestling with like, what do I do?

[01:17:02] And she said, Issa Issa, I need a swimsuit. And it's like 60 degrees maybe. And. I was like, tell me more about the swimsuit. And she was like, I don't wanna get the jammies wet and I wanna play outside and I need a swimsuit. And I was like, oh, that's brilliant. Yeah, I'm happy to get you a swimsuit. Yeah. It's wet outside.

[01:17:28] The clothes you are used to wearing when they're wet are swim clothes. I'll get you a swimsuit. 

[01:17:32] Jennie: Mm-hmm. 

[01:17:33] Alyssa: I come out and her parents, both of 'em were just like, oh my God, you didn't have to do this. It's fine. She can just be wet, she'll be fine. And I was like, I know it's exhausting. I have a sensory sensitive human.

[01:17:48] It is exhausting to change the clothes 7 million times and do all the whatevers and I a thousand percent don't mind if she wears this swimsuit. You guys don't have to do anything logistically. Our mental load, I got this one and she played in that swimsuit outside until they left for hours, just like happily.

[01:18:09] Whereas before she had gotten wet and was immediately inside. To change play inside because she didn't want to be in wet clothes. Totally. And they're like, how do we get her used to being in wet clothes? And I was like, oh, I wanna ask a different question actually. Yeah. How do we find things that she can be comfortable in to access the activity?

[01:18:27] And today, that was a swimsuit 

[01:18:29] Rachel: and like. Her own wheels turning to, I'm sure she's brilliant. In her head she's like, okay, the rain suit is a no for me. I can't tolerate it. I already got my other clothes wet. I can't stand how that feels. And she went through and was like, what could work? And landed on a swimsuit, like that's really amazing problem solving.

[01:18:46] So 

[01:18:47] Alyssa: smart. So smart. And that's why I told her, I was like, that was a great idea. And I told them, I was like, she figured this one out all on her own. 

[01:18:54] Rachel: Yeah. 

[01:18:54] Alyssa: And I'm like, all I had to do was provide the swimsuit and she was happy as a clan. 

[01:18:59] Rachel: Yeah. And it does take that slowing down, right? Because I, in my childhood, first of all, we didn't even have rain suits.

[01:19:04] Okay. We had to rain coats a hundred percent. And I, you were just wet. You were just wet. Your pants were your pants, were gonna get wet, your sneakers were gonna get wet. And if you don't want your top of your body to get wet, you wear your raincoat. Yeah. And that's the end of the discussion. Like, what more do you want from me?

[01:19:20] Right? So that part comes up for me in the moment of like, what more do you want from me? Okay. I have done everything for you. But when we can just take a minute. Mm-hmm. Just a beat of like, like with the thin socks, like, is that, is this a hill I'm gonna die on? Like, am I, do I really want to like battle with my kid because I don't feel like going and finding another pair of socks?

[01:19:47] Alyssa: But I think about like what's uncomfortable for me, right? Like I don't like to wear wool 'cause it's itchy. If I had a wool sweater on that was itching my neck the whole time, I would not be able to function as a human. I would get so annoyed and then just so annoyed with everyone around me. And it was all because I had a wool sweater on.

[01:20:04] Rachel: But what if I said, 

[01:20:05] Alyssa: just wear it longer until you get used to it than what it is. Yeah. Then I throw punch you because no, I'm never gonna get used to this. Right. It's, but it's that, it's the being able to slow down. Mm-hmm. That is so key. And it is that so many of us did not have parents that had the capacity or the understanding of the nervous system in the way that we do now to be able to slow down and say, okay, if I believe you that this is uncomfortable for you and I wanna help you figure out something that's going to work for you.

[01:20:35] Rachel: And I think that is so key is that our parents did not have access to this. Knowledge without understanding that Abel is intercept sensitive. What I get out of that interaction is that he's a pain in the ass. You know? Mm-hmm. And so my mom read our book and she texted me and she was like, I loved your book.

[01:20:57] And she was like, I'm gonna read it again because I wanna glean as much as I can from this book, not just for my relationship with you guys, but for my relationship with my grandchildren. She fri slays. She does. And it's like I think about would she have gotten me different socks if my cleats were messed up when I was a kid?

[01:21:21] I'm not sure. But now that she knows that it's a nervous system need, will she do that for her grandchildren? A thousand percent. Percent, 

[01:21:29] Alyssa: yeah. 

[01:21:30] Rachel: A thousand percent. 

[01:21:31] Alyssa: I have always respected this so much about your mom. She's so open to learning and she's so curious. I remember when there was a kid in the family who, as a baby, I was watching them like move, and I was like, oh, I think that they might benefit from an OT eval.

[01:21:52] And she was like, oh, why? And I was like, oh, here's some things I've noticed about their tone, the way that they move and how they hold their body and whatever. And she was like, oh yeah. Oh yeah, I see that. I just thought they were floppy kid. And I was like, yeah, for sure. It can present that way. And like that's what it looks like.

[01:22:10] And my brain always goes to like, but why are they floppy? Yeah. What's happening for them? That they're floppy. She was like, that's so cool. I didn't realize there would be a reason. I just figured all, everybody was different. And she always asks me questions about like why a kid's doing something, why they're showing up in certain ways.

[01:22:27] She's so curious and I love it so much about her and like all of us, she's not perfect. She's gonna react. We're gonna be, she hasn't rewritten or not gonna take time to rewrite and that's fine. But she is so stinking curious and what lucky grandkids, she's got 

[01:22:43] Rachel: so lucky she slays. And yeah, there are patterns that she's not gonna rewrite, but I have watched and as she learns, she does change the way that she's interacting with, and it's like anybody, it's so empowering when you understand the why behind the behavior that's challenging you.

[01:23:03] And I've seen in my mom as she understands the why, she is able to access compassion and empathy so that she can work to meet the need. And I'm really grateful for it. 

[01:23:16] Alyssa: Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voices of your village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content?

[01:23:29] Come join us at seed dot and dot. So SEW take a screenshot of you tuning in. Share it on the gram and tag seed. And so to let me know your key takeaway, if you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.