Unspoken and Unshared: The Hidden Cost of Staying Quiet with Jessica Zucker, PhD
Before we dive in: this episode includes a discussion of miscarriage, pregnancy loss and also discusses sexual assault. Please take care while listening.
Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.
[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I get to hang out with Jessica Zucker. She's an LA based psychologist specializing in reproductive health and the author of the award-winning book I Had a Miscarriage: A Memoir, a Movement. Jessica's the creator of the viral hashtag #IHadaMiscarriage campaign. Her writing has appeared in The New York Times, the Washington Post, New York Mag Vogue, Harvard Business Review, among others. She's also been featured on casual things like NPR, CNN, the Today Show, Good Morning America. She earned her advanced degrees from NYU and Harvard, and her second book is out now: Normalize It: Upending the Silence, Stigma, and Shame That Shape Women's Lives. I found Jessica when I was deep in my miscarriage journey, and her account was such a light for me. It was truly an honor to get to dive into this conversation with her and talk about what this looks like and why are we living in shame and in silence and secrecy, and what does it look like to raise kids who don't have to do that? How can we lead the way? What are conversations we can be having now? Oh, I love this episode so much and I'm so excited for y'all to tune in and to snag your copy of Normalize It. All right, folks, let's dive in.
[00:01:28] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.
[00:01:44] Let's dive in together.
[00:01:50] Alyssa: I'm stoked about this book. I shared this with you, but like, man, I, so I had two miscarriages before I had my kids now, and okay. In that journey, like your account was such a light for me and just like, oh, knowing I wasn't alone and just reading other people's. Stuff being like, okay, I'm not the only person in the world.
[00:02:13] It's, it's wild, right? It's something where so many of us experience it, and yet it's so isolating and lonely when you're in it.
[00:02:20] Jessica: That is the thing like that, that is truly the most quizzical thing to me at this point. You know, I am a psychologist. I've specialized in women's reproductive and maternal mental health for about 15 years at this point, and I am still dumbfounded by just how isolated people feel.
[00:02:42] And even though, you know, everyone's wearing shirts these days or even has like stickers that say You're not alone, and it's like definitely in the zeitgeist. This kind of phrasing. I don't think it penetrates until it does. Like I think a lot of us are walking around when we're in the midst of a trauma or in its.
[00:03:05] Wake and feeling like, where are my people? Like where is the crowd? Where is uh, a place where I can commune with others who deeply and truly get it? Yes. And that's I think, the aim of this second book that I wrote. It's trying so hard to say. The sooner we replace the cultural silence with storytelling, hopefully we chip away at some of that.
[00:03:38] Hopefully the sooner we speak our truths into the world, we will have a sense of connectivity. And this not being aloneness without it just being words, you know.
[00:03:54] Alyssa: A hundred percent where you can start to, like I, with the first miscarriage, I didn't share about it and I, I didn't wanna infect the happy people with my stuff, right?
[00:04:08] Mm-hmm. With like a, my sadness. And then I had shared our pregnancy announcement with this second, so then I felt like, oh, I have to share this miscarriage. And it was such a gift to me to have to share it because in sharing it, I wound up with things like, I am on the toilet in the middle of the night, bleeding and scrolling on Instagram, and I have a DM from somebody who also has experienced a miscarriage and is like connecting with me in dms who's awake in the middle of the night exactly as well.
[00:04:45] And it was just like, oh my gosh, okay. I'm actually not alone.
[00:04:50] Jessica: That's the thing. Right. So it's, it is through sharing that we find that out. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's not just reading it somewhere that, oh, the statistics, one in four pregnancies, results in loss. One in seven women will have breast cancer in their lifetime.
[00:05:07] You know, one in 160 results in still births. Like, okay, we can read that. And then we know, well, that means every seventh woman or every fourth woman, or whatever. But until we connect with somebody about it, until we muster the courage we could call it, to put yourself out there and sort of be in that vulnerability mm-hmm.
[00:05:33] We still can feel excruciatingly alone. When we really, yeah. We shouldn't have to feel this way.
[00:05:41] Alyssa: Not at all. And it's been really cool. As I did share, how many other people have shared their stories or even, I was presenting at a conference last year and afterwards somebody came up to me and she was like, I honestly, I didn't come into this workshop for your presentation.
[00:05:57] All the thanks for that. She's like, I came in to say thank you that you shared about your miscarriage. Wow. And I just had a miscarriage last year and I was like recalling back to like your posts where you were sharing about it and talking about it. And it was so helpful for me when I was going through it and I was like, man, you don't know those ripple effects.
[00:06:18] Right. When you share with other humans. Wait,
[00:06:21] Jessica: that's right. Hold on now I think I have to read something. Please. That's so perfect. And then I wanna go back to what you said that you didn't wanna infect people's happiness, because I thought that was mm-hmm. Beautifully put. Okay, so this is from the epilogue.
[00:06:40] Every time we dare to talk about the hard things, we create ripple effects that ultimately help shape and shift the master narrative, the stigmas, the shoulds. In the face of this revolutionary zeitgeist shift, we have the chance to exist in the mess without feeling we are the mess. The truth is that living in the gray in between, away from the all or nothing, black and white binaries might be the most challenging place to reside.
[00:07:09] This is the place of vulnerability. This is the place of openness and authenticity. Maybe that's why society tries so desperately to evade it, but it is perhaps the only place where we feel truly seen, truly understood, and truly ourselves. This may be the only place from which we can acknowledge the entire spectrum of our emotions and experiences.
[00:07:35] The place where we can lay it all out, no hiding, no pretending, no siphoning of feelings. There it is. That's the thing. So that's until we're willing to take the risk. And I, it's not to say, you know, because I, I hope that this is clear throughout the book, we are not sharing our stories to test the waters.
[00:08:03] You know, like we cannot control how people receive us. Mm-hmm. And so some people might reject us, some people might judge us. Some people might be like, what are you doing going public with, you know, something so personal or whatever they might think. We are doing it in an effort to find our own freedom.
[00:08:23] To pave a path of liberation for ourselves. This happened to me, therefore I'm saying it out loud.
[00:08:32] Alyssa: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:33] Jessica: And the hope then is that in us doing it, maybe we inspire other people. Maybe we do meet new best friends online. Maybe we have a sense that our stories are important, what we go through matters, and that we can actually feel a part of something through the hardest times in our lives.
[00:09:00] Alyssa: A hundred percent. And that we know that that. That shame breeds in secrecy and in silence. Right? It's so easy to fall into the, like, I am failing my body. Can't do this. And I have shared about this on the podcast before, but I was raped when I was 14 and I didn't have a safe space to talk about that until I was in my twenties.
[00:09:23] And when I did, I, I have such a distinct memory of the first person that I told, actually in college, my college roommate, Megan Larocco, when I was a freshman in college, I told her and she said, I'm so sorry that happened to you. And was the first time that my brain had even considered that something happened to me.
[00:09:45] Not that I did something right. It's not that you something something. That I 'cause in, in silence and in secrecy therein lies the shame. Right. And I had just so deeply for years been in a space of shame of I shouldn't have been in this place, or I shouldn't have been doing X, Y, or Z or Right. And that I caused this to happen.
[00:10:07] And it, it's one of those things that it, for me was life changing. Not just to hear that from her about that experience and about what that meant for me, but about how powerful telling somebody something that I'm holding shame around how freeing that is. Exactly. And look at you now
[00:10:27] Jessica: talking to women around the world and talking about it this publicly.
[00:10:31] I mean, that must be so profound for you.
[00:10:35] Alyssa: Yeah. It's like I, I don't know if you read Amy Griffin's latest book, the Tell? I haven't yet. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. And she says in there like the first couple times that she. Is saying it to somebody that it's so heavy and it's so hard, and then you get to a point where you're like, oh, I've told this story and it doesn't carry that same weight and it gets so much easier to share.
[00:10:55] And you almost forget, like it used to be so hard to share about, you know, same with miscarriage. Like it used to be so much harder for me to talk about and now it's just a part of my experience. Yeah, exactly.
[00:11:06] Jessica: So going back to what you said earlier about not sharing initially, because I do think that we think that staying silent in part protects other people.
[00:11:18] Mm-hmm. But I think we're, that's sort of, we're groomed to think that, so that we stay quiet, but then we're so much more alone as a result. Um, yes. Yeah. W tell me, tell me about your thoughts around that and, um, yeah, the fear of infecting others with this disappointment, you know, with my sadness. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:40] Alyssa: I, I, I think specifically as women, we are, we are culturally conditioned to be people pleasers to make sure, you know, in my household, I can't, so many women that I've talked to who are moms who have said like, yeah, I'm the one responsible for the energy in the household. If my energy's off, everybody's, energy's off.
[00:12:04] Right? Mm-hmm. That we are meant to make sure that we have it all together and that we can show up in a way that doesn't disrupt anybody around us, that we're not a burden to anybody around us. Mm-hmm. And I think that. We're chipping away at that generationally, but I think it still very much lives. Uh, and a lot of us, I think, grew up with that of like, we should have, we don't wanna be needy.
[00:12:29] You don't wanna be high maintenance. I don't wanna be a burden. Yes. And that my sadness could be a burden to you. Mm. And
[00:12:38] Jessica: is it because I, I mean, I'm, we don't have to go down this road fully. No, let's do it. This is fun. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm just wondering because I'm always trying to figure out, I feel like a, a sociologist in this way, even though I don't have, you know, a research study going on.
[00:12:52] But it's like, where do we learn this? Yes, it's culture, but then we also live in a home, presumably for the first 18 years of our lives, most of us anyway. And you know, do we learn it there as well? Is that where it's cultivated to? Totally. Do we learn to walk on eggshells or be the good girl or put on a brave face or.
[00:13:16] All of those things. So do you feel like in part, when you had the first miscarriage that things you had grown up with informed that decision?
[00:13:26] Alyssa: Totally. A hundred percent. Yeah. And, and I would say coupled with, this is ironic, but the statistics where I was like, oh, I know this happens to people. Okay. Right.
[00:13:36] So like I had seen the statistics of miscarriage and was like, okay, this happens to people. And I almost like a, I just need to get over it. 'cause people experience this all the time. Mm. And move past it. Interesting. Uh,
[00:13:51] Jessica: yeah.
[00:13:51] Alyssa: You know what I mean? Yeah. I think specifically with miscarriage around that one, but yeah.
[00:13:56] Jessica: Yeah. I think that's interesting because again, I think that's kind of like a patriarchal notion, seeping in that somehow because it happens to enough people, therefore we shouldn't necessarily have a lot of feelings about it.
[00:14:11] Alyssa: Yeah. Like periods. I got a lot of feelings about 'em and they're happening to a lot of people
[00:14:15] Jessica: that, wait, so I opened the book with, with menstruation?
[00:14:19] Yes. Yeah. With girlhood. Exactly. And they, they last, you know, and then there's perimenopause, which mm-hmm. We don't talk about culturally. And yes, there are a lot of books coming out right now about the topic, but what about all of generations past? Yeah. Where were they supposed to turn when suddenly they were, you know, navigating this very new phase of life and a transition that can last up to 10 years.
[00:14:49] Yeah. Why is there no open dialogue making people hundred percent feel
[00:14:55] Alyssa: safe and sound, and I think both like that ingroup dialogue, but also the outgroup. Right? So when is it Dr. Mary Claire went on armchair expert and shared about her book on menopause that's sat recently and. I, it that like episode circulated in my friend group of like, oh my gosh, tune into this.
[00:15:17] It's so good. Let's chat about it. And we're all chatting about it and everyone's getting their weighted vest to wear while they walk now and whatever. And, and then, but I was like, you know what? Also, this can't just happen in my, in group. And I sent it to my husband and I was like, I want you to listen to this episode, and I want us to be able to chat about it.
[00:15:34] Hmm. And I, I think that that's also part of it. And I think of this with, with menstruation. With miscarriage. Like miscarriage. I remember in that second one, I was physically experiencing it Right. And felt really lonely in the physical experience Yes. Of a lot of it. But my husband was also experiencing a miscarriage in that we had a positive test and we were planning on a baby and all that, just, and there wasn't a space for him to talk about this, to process this.
[00:16:07] Either and that sadness and that grief. And I think just collectively being able to talk about hard things and be vulnerable is so new for so many of us.
[00:16:21] Jessica: I know. I think that's, you know, again, the aim of this book, the more I've been talking to people about the book, the more I realized that all men should read this book as well.
[00:16:34] Yes. I initially thought it was just for us women, but I know I'm very concerned about men because when you say that there wasn't space for him, it's not because you were taking up the space. It's because culture never made the space for correct boys and men to emote emotion to, you know, cry, uh, in front of others, whatever.
[00:16:59] So yeah, I think that we're in sort of a cultural stalemate when it comes to. How do we free us all and how do we actually feel the most connected to our partners, the most connected to our communities, and actually be able to secure the support that we need through all of life's challenges?
[00:17:22] Alyssa: A hundred percent.
[00:17:23] And it's what I love about your book is like I. I came to you from a place of miscarriage, but that it hits on all these topics that we, I, I mean, I have a 4-year-old son and we talk about my period and he has a little sister, right? And he said recently, uh, he was like, oh, and Mila will need a tampon. And I was like, she might, or she might use, we got to talk about other like menstrual like products.
[00:17:52] Good for you and what she might use for See it,
[00:17:54] Jessica: you're doing it, you're changing the way.
[00:17:58] Alyssa: But it's little conversations, right? It's not like, okay, I had to have this overarching conversation with my 4-year-old about periods. No, it's, he's in the bathroom with you. Right, exactly. Same. I
[00:18:08] Jessica: totally get it. Yes. No, but I mean, I think that those conversations, the mini ones are the ones that make the biggest dent though I.
[00:18:20] Because, yeah, it's like if it has to be some formal thing, we might be intimidated. We might think we have to be a medical doctor in order to do it. We might think we need graphs and charts and you know, all these things. But if it's just normalized in the bathroom over dinner, you know, in the dressing room at a store, I don't know.
[00:18:42] I think that this helps our children understand that we can talk about the natural things that are happening within our bodies and within our lives.
[00:18:54] Alyssa: That's it. And that's why I love your title. Just like normalize it because it is, that's what we're trying to do here is it shouldn't be one big conversation.
[00:19:03] 'cause that's not normalizing. It. Normalizing is being able to have all of those other conversations. We actually, so we work a lot with schools, we work with childcare programs, family childcare providers, and, and school-based systems. And we. Had one of our programs, a childcare program, birth to five, the director reached out and was like, Hey, we need your help.
[00:19:27] Can you create a resource for us? Or some sort of guide. Hmm. We have a teacher here who was pregnant, was in her third trimester, had a stillborn baby, and all of the kids, oh my goodness, are gonna, we have to talk to them, right? Like, they knew she was pregnant, they knew a baby was coming, and they're like, we're in our own grief and shock and how do we talk to the kids?
[00:19:49] And I was like, amazing. That they turned to you in That's exactly it. That I was like, incredible. That you were like, you know what? We need a resource for this. And we work with, uh, a team of psychologists and social workers, good and other experts. And so we put together a guide and we're able to pass along of like, here's what you can send to families, that they can talk to their kids at home if they have questions.
[00:20:11] Wow, here's how you can do this in school. And it's a part of that that I, I was interacting, I know, um, one of the kids that goes to this school and I was interacting with the kiddo and they told me like, oh yeah, the teacher's baby died. And sometimes that happens, although not usually when you're so pregnant, but sometimes it happens and it's really sad.
[00:20:32] And I was like, Ugh. Yes. Perfectly
[00:20:36] Jessica: put though. How old are these kids?
[00:20:39] Alyssa: Early childhood. So all under the age of five. Oh, that's a lot.
[00:20:43] Jessica: Okay. Yeah. So it's like they can't totally comprehend, but they totally do know that her belly looked a certain way and then she's gonna come back and it different. And a lot of them have
[00:20:55] Alyssa: parents who have had other babies.
[00:20:57] Right. So they've seen the process where then Yes, a baby comes on the other side and Yeah. And, but I think mm, prior generations, nothing would've been said. Nothing. Nothing. And we have this opportunity to just talk and err on the side of we can talk about this. Yes. Even if it's gonna be uncomfortable.
[00:21:17] Even if we like hearing a child say that to me also, I'm receiving that and I'm like, oh, it's uncomfortable to receive. Right. It's, I know hard to be with those words. It
[00:21:26] Jessica: is. And it's just so sad. Like I think our culture is so uncomfortable with grief in general, and so it's tempting to sidestep it by not talking about it at all.
[00:21:39] Alyssa: Yeah.
[00:21:39] Jessica: And hearing a little person who's four years old talk about the death of a baby is unimaginable, and yet the fact that they have the language for it, the fact that then they can go home and talk with their parents about it. Maybe there's a book that they can look at, or your resource guide, you know, that is making what is normal and unfortunate in.
[00:22:05] Alyssa: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:06] Jessica: Able to have words put to it though. Yeah. Ignoring it doesn't make it obviously go away. Pretending doesn't fix quote unquote fix anything. Mm-hmm. And there are no silver linings when it comes to stillbirth. I do not think, and, you know, turning to saying things like everything happens for a reason.
[00:22:30] God has a plan. God doesn't give you more than you can handle. These kinds of things do not help, I don't think some people Yeah. Feel very sort of comforted by these words. I think saying something like that to somebody who just had a stillbirth is completely inappropriate and really misses the mark unless the person who had the stillbirth voices this like if, if they feel that way.
[00:23:00] Yeah, that's fine. But I just think that we often put these platitudes out there hoping to kind of stave off grief and just being like,
[00:23:11] Alyssa: that's it. You know? It's not about the person we're giving them to. It's about us not wanting to be in the grief with him. Totally. Not wanting to connect and empathize because it's uncomfortable.
[00:23:22] Yes.
[00:23:24] Jessica: Yes. And instead though, we can dare ourselves to lean in and nobody wants to swim in grief full time 24 hours a day for, you know, months and months, of course not. But it doesn't require that for us to show up for people. All we have to do is say, I care about you. I'm so sorry this happened to you. I am here for you and
[00:23:50] Alyssa: mean
[00:23:50] Jessica: it.
[00:23:52] Yes.
[00:23:53] Alyssa: Yeah. That's it. And like, ooh, it's real hard for those of us that grew up in cultures and households where we didn't have that modeled for us. Exactly. The ability to do it in the moment so hard. And Oh, I love, I love that you're talking about this, that you are giving voice to what's needed in order to move from shame and that so many folks, we're just living with it.
[00:24:23] Right? We're going day to day feeling it. I know. And I do think
[00:24:27] Jessica: that we have the potential in, you know, an unfortunate sort of way to lodge shame deeper into people when we don't acknowledge what they're living through. So yes, after my 16 week at home miscarriage experience, I did not feel shame. Maybe because I grew up in a family of doctors and maybe because I already had a healthy child, and so I just really sort of on a gut level felt like something must have been wrong with the fetus.
[00:25:02] I, I didn't think that it meant, you know, I couldn't have future pregnancies and it turned out that there was a chromosomal abnormality, but it was really when I actually interacted with other people that sometimes I got back comments that left me stunned, speechless, alienated it left me wanting to run for the hills.
[00:25:29] Yeah. And that is in such an unfortunate shame. It's one thing when you grow up in a family and you've learned to be quiet about stuff, and so you're used to this in a way, it's not, that's not a good thing, but you know what I mean. It's like you're, you're used to Yes. Kind of. Shoving stuff down. Totally.
[00:25:49] Yeah. I, I can, I can attest. Well, yeah, I mean, I'd, I'd like to hear more about that actually. Yeah. Because it, you know, um, it really sort of hit me when you said that you had been raped and then you didn't share it for all that time, that you didn't feel you could, I guess, turn to one of your parents or both of them or, so the reaction is key.
[00:26:12] And so again, all of this is kind of easier said than done, you know? Yes. In a perfect world, we say, I'm here for you. We mean it, we show up. We're consistent, we're loving. We can hold space for people as they navigate whatever they're going through. And we can do the same for ourselves, but that is in an ideal world, and we have to get there.
[00:26:34] And so my book outlines small steps to getting there. So in a way, like, I didn't think of my book as a guide. In any which way? Uh, while I was writing it, but through talking more about it, I realized, oh, actually people could use this in a way as like a manual just because it has ideas of ways we can start, right?
[00:27:03] Alyssa: It's a guide to vulnerability, right? Like that is the guide. And I think, you know, I, I did, I have two incredible parents who have made generational shifts from what they were raised in. Mm-hmm. And also there were gaps in what I received specifically around emotional development that like, there was a roof over my head.
[00:27:26] I was cared for, I knew I was safe and like physically safe and mm-hmm. I also knew that there were things that. That I didn't know they could handle. Right? Mm-hmm. Of like my hard stuff. Why? And because they didn't talk about theirs. They didn't talk about theirs. And any like very early experiences I had sharing about hard things were dismissed, were playfully distracted out of like that sort of thing.
[00:27:54] Yes. Um, and so I grew to just know like, oh, that's too uncomfortable for them. Mm-hmm. They can handle this. And so what about
[00:28:02] Jessica: now? I mean, what, so did you share with your mom eventually or your dad that you went through that and do they feel, are they able to reflect on the fact that you didn't feel you could turn to them when it happened?
[00:28:17] Alyssa: Yeah, good question. I have shared with both of them. Uh, before I shared publicly, I was like, I want you to hear this from me before you hear it anywhere else. Uh, and told I have four brothers and told all my brothers Wow. And. Yeah, it was a, it was a beast. That was a big household. Yeah,
[00:28:35] Jessica: I love that too. Oh my goodness.
[00:28:38] I can't even imagine. I'm sure they wanted to kill the guy. Yeah. Correct. All your brothers. Yeah.
[00:28:44] Alyssa: Correct. Um, and yeah, some who just felt sad that they didn't protect me, that sort of thing. And that's what I got from my parents mostly, was like they felt sad that they hadn't kept me safe. Which is, it's interesting 'cause it's really shifted for me in parenthood, and this might feel controversial for some folks, but my goal isn't that my kids don't get raped.
[00:29:06] Of course I don't want them to, but my goal is actually that they know that I'm a safe space to turn to, to process whatever comes up. Yeah. That if I, if I parent from a place of, I wanna make sure nothing bad happens to you, good luck with that. I'm gonna live with so much anxiety. Exactly.
[00:29:23] Jessica: Yeah. And also you just won't let them leave the house.
[00:29:25] But even within the house, something can happen when you, you know, sneeze. Correct. Or someone comes in the door. I mean, so Yeah. It's, I understand. Yeah. I mean. Because I have this gene, you know, because I went through breast cancer and I have an identified genetic component, it is hard for me not to worry about my daughter's future.
[00:29:46] Sure. And yet, like you're saying, it's like, well, I don't, we're not gonna know. We're not gonna do testing on her until she's older and if she wants to do it. So the important thing is being able to talk about whatever might happen for her down the road, and that she feels comfortable turning to us.
[00:30:09] Alyssa: Yeah, that's exactly it.
[00:30:10] And so that's what. Uh, that's what I want for my kids and, and that's the part that I didn't have, right? Mm-hmm. That's where I get to like shift a generational pattern and as my friend Dr. Ada will says like, take that baton from a relay race from my parents and run another leg of it and pass that baton onto my kids.
[00:30:30] Yes. And there are some things I'll heal and some things won't. Um, yes, that's so true. As of right now, they probably will still be triggered by kids whining because that's something I have not yet healed. I'm not sure anyone, uh, can tolerate that. I
[00:30:46] Jessica: know.
[00:30:47] Alyssa: Uh, but yeah, really, uh, for me, I love the, that manual for vulnerability around like just how to be in that discomfort.
[00:30:58] And one of the things that was really helpful for me when I started to kind of wade into this territory, 'cause it's not how I was raised, was to even be able to say like, wow, that's so. Hard to hear and I really wanna save you from this right now. Oh. And to be able to like name that for somebody beautiful for myself.
[00:31:17] That's exactly, you know, and how can my best show up for you? I know I can't, yeah. Yes. Right? Yeah. Uh, but to name that discomfort at first of like, wow, I really wish I could take this away for you. So where did, did you get all these
[00:31:32] Jessica: tools? Like how did you figure all of this out and start this podcast and do all the things you were doing?
[00:31:39] If it wasn't modeled for you, did you just kind of figure it out on your own? Or did you go to therapy or?
[00:31:47] Alyssa: I did go to therapy, but I would say what really sparked it was I got my master's in early childhood education and as I was doing my master's and working in the field and we're learning about social emotional development and I'm like, can, can't.
[00:32:02] Teach this if I'm not doing this for me. Right? Like, true when this happens with a kid, I, I don't know how to teach this because I'm not practicing. It was really what my experience was. So insightful. Yes. And, and so much of my master's around social emotional learning was really around social learning, not around emotions.
[00:32:22] It was how do we help kids be in community? How do we help them be kind, be respectful, right? Et cetera. Like, and it really lacked the, like, what do we do with the hard feelings part of this? What about when they do get frustrated or they are disappointed or they are mad, or they're embarrassed or anxious, or they're scared and they can,
[00:32:41] Jessica: they
[00:32:41] Alyssa: bite
[00:32:41] Jessica: and they scratch and they do all of these things because they don't have the words at the ready at that point, you know, depending on the age.
[00:32:49] Alyssa: Yeah, yeah. Or the regulation skills or the self-awareness that they're even feeling it. And so that's what really like spearheaded me in this direction. And then a colleague of mine. Uh, when I was teaching at a university like campus, um, childcare, I was an infant toddler teacher at the time and she was in preschool, pre-K.
[00:33:08] We both have our masters in early ed and she said, I think we're doing something different. And so we started to like video lesson each other and dive into it and ended up realizing so much of what we were doing was focused on the adult that there was. We ended up creating a method, the collaborative emotion processing method that we partnered with Brandeis University and researched, but it's five components and only one's adult child interactions.
[00:33:34] The other four are about us as the adult. And it was like amazing. How do we build these skills? What does this look like for us?
[00:33:41] Jessica: This is revolutionary. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:44] Alyssa: Thanks. It really was just spearheaded by the, like, I don't have these skills. And, but then like, how did you actually
[00:33:50] Jessica: get
[00:33:50] Alyssa: them?
[00:33:50] Jessica: Like, I mean, yeah.
[00:33:51] Was there a process through which you felt you attained them? If that's a thing, you know?
[00:33:57] Alyssa: Yeah. I feel like, honestly, like, so then I started diving into like what exists on emotion research now. Mm-hmm. And got introduced to so much research that I had not yet been exposed to. Yeah. And, and then that coupled with therapy and then learning more about like, how do I teach this to kids?
[00:34:14] And it was kind of a trifecta of like, yes, my own personal work, learning about research and emotions and then trying to teach it to kids that led to like my skillset really growing. Incredible. Incredible. Thanks. Well, you're gonna write a book, whether you
[00:34:27] Jessica: know it
[00:34:28] Alyssa: or not. I've got tiny humans, big emotions written already, and we actually have big kids, bigger feelings publishing in the fall.
[00:34:34] Jessica: Oh, I didn't know that you had one coming. Yeah. Okay, great. Amazing. Do you have it to show? Is it, do you have
[00:34:42] Alyssa: a. I do have a, uh, yes. Yeah, I do. Somewhere just a sec. I'll hold her up. I wanna see it. This is big kids', bigger feelings right now. Love, love really looking at like ages five to 12 for this bad boy and publishes in September.
[00:34:57] Jessica: Oh, I'm so excited for that. Um, thanks. My daughter is 11, so I, I wanna snatch that up. Oh, I'll send you a copy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll
[00:35:06] Alyssa: send you a copy. Yeah. My son is,
[00:35:08] Jessica: uh, 16, so I Yeah. May have missed the boat there. What? So they're about four years apart. They're actually exactly five years apart. Okay. Um, had I not had my miscarriage, uh, they would've been four years apart.
[00:35:24] Yeah. I wasn't somebody who, my, my husband's a twin. He always knew he wanted more than one child. Mm-hmm. I was sort of, of the mindset like, let's take one at a time. It's not that I thought, you know, that I wanted to have one, but I just felt like. I've never done this before, so I can't predict what this is going totally to look like or feel like for me, and how much I'll be able to juggle because I absolutely am so, you know, committed to my career and passionate about it.
[00:35:56] So, you know, I think I was a little bit worried that it would eat into that, and would I be able to find a quote unquote balance with it. Uh, and then we decided to expand our family, and then I had that incredibly traumatic miscarriage, which like, you know, as I said, it's, it happened in the context of my home.
[00:36:21] I had to cut the umbilical cord myself. I began to hemorrhage. Then we brought the fetus in a bag to my doctor's office to be tested, and then I had to undergo an unmedicated DNC. So the whole thing was so harrowing. And as I write in my first book. I was like, I'm not going down on this note. Like even though I had been somewhat ambivalent about having a second child for a little while, I was like, f this, this cannot be the end of this story.
[00:36:56] Like it was just, it was too horrible. I mean, it was unimaginable. Yeah. And I was like, no. And so my doctor recommended we wait three cycles and then I got pregnant again and, um, have a healthy daughter. So, yeah. So my kids are five years apart, which is, you know, not exactly what I had envisioned. I liked that they would be further apart than closer together.
[00:37:23] Um, and I think it's interesting to watch their interactions because of how many years they have between them. It's not like my teenage son necessarily wants to hang out with my 11-year-old daughter, you know, full time the way that maybe they would if they were just a couple years apart. But they do have a loving relationship and I'm just happy that they have each other.
[00:37:45] And for us as parents, it's wonderful to have the experience of having them both. Of course.
[00:37:52] Alyssa: That's rad. Yeah. Uh, my husband's an only child. Mm-hmm. I'm one of five and we both were like, we don't want what we had. And he's like, I want to, I want our kids to have siblings. Um, honestly, for him, he was like, I didn't super feel that way growing up at.
[00:38:09] Uh, as an adult, he's like, I a, just like, there's been so much attention and kind of almost inadvertent pressure Yes. Mm-hmm. On him to exist and thrive and all that and whatever. Mm-hmm. And just eyes on him. And then, uh, he's like, then as his parents get older, it's the caring for the parents. I know. I would love to be able to share this Totally with the sibling.
[00:38:32] Yes, yes. It's a lot. And I was like, I don't want five. You know, I was like, I'm a lot of kids. That's a win. That
[00:38:39] Jessica: is a lot of kids. Oh my goodness.
[00:38:42] Alyssa: And I think part of being one of five was my parents had the capacity to meet our physical needs, to make sure we had food on the table, to make sure we had roof over our head.
[00:38:52] They showed up at all of our games. That, which is no small feat. I mean that No small feat. That's a lot. That's right. Um, they didn't miss a thing of ours and there wasn't additional capacity for our emotional needs. Right. Yeah. That there would, they were spread so thin. And so for me, that was something that I was just mindful of with my experience.
[00:39:14] Yes. And, um, and I think it can look different in different family structures. We also were in a low income community where they couldn't have any paid help to help with anything Right. Around the house or any of that. Right, right. So there they were just stretched Totally. Um, but yeah, so we, I, I was always like, oh, I want two with the option of three.
[00:39:33] Right. We just kind of see, and then we had our second and kind of, to my surprise, I guess I was just like, I feel done. You do feel done. It just, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Immediate. Do you think you feel done though because
[00:39:45] Jessica: you're in it in the thick it exhausted. Yeah. Like you haven't slept in 16 months or whatever it is.
[00:39:52] Or do you think you just Yeah. Yeah. Just feel complete. You do. Okay.
[00:39:57] Alyssa: Interesting. Yeah.
[00:39:58] Jessica: Yeah.
[00:39:58] Alyssa: I like really an experience. I didn't imagine. 'cause with Sage, my older guy, when he turned like one-ish, I was like, oh, okay. I could have another. And like Mila hit one and I'm like, oh my gosh, I wanna like hold all the babies around me.
[00:40:14] And I too feel really passionate about my work. Yes. And I run a team of 12 and we are doing really cool things with exciting things on the docket and I love being able to focus on that and have my attention go to it in a way that I can't when I'm growing and birthing humans.
[00:40:35] Jessica: It's a lot. And I think what you said too about really wanting to kind of change the culture within your home, also outside of it.
[00:40:45] Mm-hmm. But having two seems like that would probably be doable. That you can have the conversations about menstruation and about bodies. Mm-hmm. And about. You know, sexual traumas and you know, just whatever it is that you want to talk to them about, you will probably have that space because you don't have Yeah.
[00:41:07] Five people running
[00:41:09] Alyssa: in different directions. Totally. And I just know for myself to show up as the human I want to be. Yes. I, I don't wanna hit my capacity. Right. Like, I don't wanna be like, oh, this is it. And so right now I don't feel like I am at capacity and I'm like, this is good. Yeah, that is good.
[00:41:26] Let's stay. Let's
[00:41:26] Jessica: stay here. It's interesting. My daughter last night couldn't fall asleep though. And she was like, you know, you haven't been spending enough time with me. Like it's been all about the book. And it did make me have to reflect because the wheels were turning. It was sort of like, wait, how much attention have I been giving to other things?
[00:41:47] And my kids I think are really lucky that both. Parents are around a lot. We both work for ourselves so I can go get them from school and you know, those kinds of things. Mm-hmm. And I feel I'm very engaged and available and present. But when you birth a book, the game changes. Yeah. A little bit. I don't know how you feel, feel a lot of attention that about that.
[00:42:13] Yeah. With yours coming and, and one already under your belt. Like, I do think that work related things can feel like other people or projects in our lives. And so, you know, we have to kind of take our own emotional temperature. Like how much is too much, how much, you know, tips the scale in a direction of feeling like maybe I'm not as present as I really wanna be.
[00:42:40] Alyssa: Yeah. And I really see it, I, I've learned so much about this too, from my friend Neha Ruch who wrote The Power Pause. Mm-hmm. And she, she's been such a lovely, like, kind of voice for me in this of that. It's, it's not all or nothing one or this, there's not like a right formula. Exactly. It's been different focuses in different seasons.
[00:43:02] Right, right. And like there have been seasons where I'm like, yeah, I'm not focused on work right now. Mm-hmm. And home needs my attention and needs more of me. Exactly. And there are seasons where, I mean, come this fall, the, it falls already nuts for us. 'cause it's a lot of back to school. There's a lot of education conferences.
[00:43:19] Mm-hmm. I do a lot of traveling and presenting. Okay. Already. Oh wow. And then we add in a nice little book to it. It'll be, it'll be a beast. Yes. It's gonna
[00:43:28] Jessica: be a whirlwind. Yes, indeed.
[00:43:31] Alyssa: And I had just like carved out for myself. I was like, all right, from middle of August to middle of November, most of my attention is gonna go towards work.
[00:43:39] Yeah. And the balance is gonna be a little off towards work rather than family. Exactly. And then mid-November to about February, the family gets me more than work gets me. Mm-hmm. And just really see it in seasons.
[00:43:55] Jessica: Yes. And I try to, and maybe this is just a way to comfort myself, but I try to remind myself that this is important modeling.
[00:44:05] Yeah. To be able to have both, to be able to have family and deep passion and enjoyment through work. Yes. And to have, you know, ways that we are fed that are not just through the family and health. Yes. Yeah. Niha actually gave me a blurb for my book.
[00:44:24] Alyssa: Oh, awesome. Same actually. She's so rad. Yeah, I know.
[00:44:27] That's great. Um, but there's, there's somebody running for governor in California, actually, who I saw speak. And she's a single mom. She's from like Orange County. She's representative right now. And I think the house. And, but anyway, she sat, when I saw her speak, she said in, in reference to like being a working parent and having, you know, two or three kids or whatever, she was like, yeah, I just realized I'm not doing this to them.
[00:44:53] I'm doing this for them. Yeah. And she was like, in so many ways, both in the policy that I'm working to create Right. But also showing them that you get to chase things you are passionate about too. That's right. Right. And I was like, yes. Like I love that and.
[00:45:10] Jessica: Our kids are going to have some issues no matter what we do.
[00:45:14] So percent, you know, even if you are full-time able to stay at home with the kids, they're going to have stuff. Or if you work so much that you aren't around, they're gonna have stuff. So I feel like we have to figure out for ourselves what feels good and also what doesn't make us feel bad, um, or guilty or whatever.
[00:45:37] Or even if it does, we have to just wrestle with that and figure it out maybe. But I think that, you know, our kids may not pat us on the back and thank us for modeling this, you know? Totally. They may actually come back at us later and say, you know, I felt neglected during those periods, but we can't know.
[00:45:55] And we just, I think, have to strive to do our best. And I do think if you look at it like seasonally, like you're talking about, you know, hopefully they know that in the seasons when we're focused outward. We're still totally there for them. A
[00:46:11] Alyssa: hundred percent. And that's where like, also, it's kind of like setting boundaries, right?
[00:46:15] Where I, I don't need someone to be jazzed about my boundary. I don't need them to be like, yeah, you are. Thank you mom for traveling around so much and doing this work. Like, I love it. Thank you. They're allowed to be disappointed. They're allowed to miss me. Exactly. They're allowed to feel sad, right? A hundred percent.
[00:46:34] What I want is that they can do what your daughter did and say, I feel like I haven't had your attention. I feel like everything's going to the book. And she gets to have a safe space to express that. Not worried about your feelings or your reactions or is she gonna hurt you. Right. And what she knows there is, you're my safe space to express this and mm-hmm.
[00:46:55] It doesn't even mean your like schedule's gonna change. She gets to still feel that. Right. And we get to let her know that like, it does feel different and it is hard when we're away from each other more. But I think my
[00:47:07] Jessica: schedule should change. I don't know. You know, I mean it, that's the thing because I'm so sensitive and I want to give her something I didn't grow up with and like the fact that she could even put words to it, it did make me pause, you know?
[00:47:20] It's like. Not like, oh, is she right? I mean she is right. Of course. That like the focus has been on the book, but do I need now to take a beat? You know, do I need to have several hours where my phone is far away? I'm not talking about podcasts or the publisher or the anything, you know, and it's really singularly about her.
[00:47:45] And so I think it was important feedback because I think we can get kind of swirling in a vortex of whatever we're passionate about and forget that, you know, even if we're setting boundary, they may still need some hours of pointed attention, you know? Yeah.
[00:48:06] Alyssa: A hundred percent. Like that. Phones away.
[00:48:09] Attention. Yeah. Is. So huge we can get roped up in it. Absolutely. I think the feedback doesn't mean like we don't take it, but also it might be like, yeah, I'm slated to travel for the next week and those things aren't gonna shift. And so what does it look like to find connection in this season? Yes. Right.
[00:48:25] And and just to validate the crap out of those feelings. Yeah. I just love that she felt safe enough to bring that to you. Yes, me too.
[00:48:35] Jessica: I'm I, in fact, when I pick her up from school today, I will thank her again for sharing that with me. Yeah. It's really important because that way they know that you're open to getting the feedback.
[00:48:47] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that you can handle their hard stuff.
[00:48:50] Jessica: Yes. We're
[00:48:52] Alyssa: normalizing it. Yes. Normalizing it. You got it. Thank you so much for writing this book. Thanks for just being you. You've been a light to me too. I'm sure. So many humans that you don't even know. Aw. And thank you on behalf of one of those humans.
[00:49:08] Thank you. I really appreciate you so much for everything you do and for having me on the show. Thank you. Absolutely. Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.
[00:49:23] Alyssa: I, uh, just LOL at us in our natural like climates. If I'm in a sweater and you're in a tank top and I'm sweating, um, because I've been doing stuff around the house, like, oh yeah, no, I was running around all morning and I just feel perfectly clammy.
[00:49:43] Rachel: Also, I am drinking an iced coffee and I have a hot coffee.
[00:49:49] Alyssa: Classic. Mm-hmm. Okay. Wait, I thought you guys got like an iced coffee, cold brew system or something.
[00:49:56] Rachel: Oh, we did. I just got these cups so that Oh. To
[00:49:58] Alyssa: make it really feel like you got a It's the dopamine hit. Yeah, totally. Totally. Great.
[00:50:05] Rachel: Which also like, who am I? Because there was a period of my life where I like wouldn't drink out of plastic at all.
[00:50:10] Sure, sure, sure, sure.
[00:50:13] Alyssa: Oh man. And then, yeah. Yeah, it's,
[00:50:17] Rachel: it's interesting plastic's everywhere. So I'm just like, it's whatever. It's everywhere. Literally my pipes in my house are made of PVC 'cause that's what they do nowadays. So it's like, yeah, that glass mason jar might not move the needle as much as you think it does.
[00:50:31] Alyssa: That's, that's what I'm always wearing is like cost benefit analysis. Right? Like, is this gonna be the thing that saves the earth or saves my body from cancer or whatever it is. Like I, I gave up smoking. Right. That probably a good call on carcinogenic. The plastic cup you're drinking your iced coffee out of, you're probably fine.
[00:50:54] Rachel: And it's like, if I was microwaving it Yeah. I wouldn't use plastic. Right? Sure. Like things that are gonna like actively leach plastic Yes. Into the food. I'm, I'm not gonna be doing that. Um. But yeah, I'm gonna get my little dopamine hit out of my to-go coffee cup.
[00:51:09] Alyssa: I actually recently was like, I'm gonna switch our cutting boards.
[00:51:13] Oh wait, we have like some, we just did the same
[00:51:16] Rachel: thing you did. I only kept plastic for meat. Ah, why for meat? Because my wood ones I get don't feel like I can like totally sanitize. Sure. Like one, you know me. Um, yeah, dude, I, the raw meat is like one of my OCD things that like That's
[00:51:35] Alyssa: so true.
[00:51:35] Rachel: Is so hard for me.
[00:51:37] Alyssa: How do you do this with cast iron? Like how does it not stress you out with cast iron? What do you mean? Because you're not using like soap to clean it. Whatever. You're not nervous that there's like still meat juice. No. 'cause it's
[00:51:50] Rachel: heated. Like I Yeah, sure. When I like taking care of cast iron. So you like wash it with like a scrubber And I will use soap if it's like, if something's like really stuck on like, I'm not, uh.
[00:52:02] I'm not militant about my cast iron. Cool. But I, every time I wash it, then I heat it and oil it again. Yeah. So it's getting hot, so I'm just like, yeah, yeah, that's fine.
[00:52:12] Alyssa: Um, no, but no, I trust that. It's fine. I just wasn't sure how you got your brain there. Yeah,
[00:52:17] Rachel: no. My biggest issue right now, well it always has been, but it's really bad right now is raw chicken.
[00:52:24] 'cause I was actually grocery shopping yesterday and I was like, oh man, like I really should do like a batch cook of chicken, just like we have it in the fridge. Easy protein. And I was stressed about other things and I was just like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not gonna do the raw chicken right now. Um, and I go through like phases where I'm like, yeah, totally.
[00:52:42] I'll cook. I went when I was like in my super crunchy phase, I was like cooking whole chickens on the reg and then like making bone broth doing that whole shebang. Yeah. With your metals. Yep. Actually I just wrote down that I need to start drinking nettle tea daily again. Literally, I just, it's on this piece of paper next to me because my hair is thinning again.
[00:53:09] And I don't know if it's stress or I actually, you know what it probably is now that I'm saying this, when I had the flu, whenever I get a fever illness, like three months later, I lose a crap load of hair. 'cause it's like a growth cycle of hair. If you Google it, it's a thing. So it happened. I believe you.
[00:53:24] It happened when I had covid. Huh? And it, I had high fevers when I had the flu in January. And so it's just about that time. Time. How do you notice, 'cause like you
[00:53:33] Alyssa: have so much hair that it's not like you have really thin hair.
[00:53:40] Rachel: How do you notice My hair hides it really well, but like, so when I'm styling my hair, I can like see through my hair up here.
[00:53:48] Ah. Or like, it'll fall in such a way like flat against my scalp, where usually I have like volume. More. Mm-hmm. I'm just like, Hmm. Also just like shedding in the shower. I'm like, oh, that's more than normal. And I'm like tuned into it. 'cause it's also like a marker for my thyroid. Sure. So like, if my hair starts to really fall out and I, I am not like, oh yeah, I had the flu a couple months ago.
[00:54:10] I have to like, get labs done and stuff.
[00:54:12] Alyssa: Yeah.
[00:54:13] Rachel: But yeah, like I can really shed,
[00:54:14] Alyssa: um, it's happening right now. I'm shedding some, I feel like I shed all the time, but I've just chalked it up to my hormones, sipping all over the place. Well, I shed all the time too. Five years.
[00:54:22] Rachel: I shed all the time too. But there are times where it's like, um, you
[00:54:27] Alyssa: know, like, yeah.
[00:54:28] It's like aggressive. It's like, okay. I have a, I have a question for you about hair shedding in showers. Um, how do you navigate, like say you like put in shampoo and now you have a chunk of like, hair in your hands. Mm-hmm. What do you do with that hair?
[00:54:43] Rachel: Um, I put it on the wall. Mm-hmm. And then I take care of it after I get outta the shower.
[00:54:49] Every time you get
[00:54:49] Alyssa: outta the shower, you like wipe it off. Yes. Yeah. 'cause that's what you're supposed to do, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm so bad at remembering that it's on the wall and it grosses me out. Like it's so wild how like a hair on my, my head, it doesn't, doesn't gross me. It, it's, it doesn't gross me out at all when it's on my head.
[00:55:07] And I know immediately once it's off my head, I'm like, Ugh, no. I have to use toilet paper to take Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Not touching that with my bare hands. No. I put it on there with my bare hands. I'm not touching it again with my bare hands. No, it's so gross. But I use the toilet paper when I remember, but I get outta the shower and then I'm not looking at the shower again.
[00:55:25] Right, right. Like, I'm looking, I'm onto the next thing. Yeah. And I, this has been a thing over the years that Zach has been like, can you please just remove the hair? And I'm like, totally. I fully understand. How much it makes you like, because it makes me do that too. It's so gross. I really hate when there's hair in a drain of a shower.
[00:55:47] Oh yes. Yeah,
[00:55:48] Rachel: it's aggy. It's no, you know what's super aggy? So for a while I got really lazy about this and I was just like letting my hair go down the drain. Like just go down it
[00:55:57] Alyssa: uhhuh
[00:55:58] Rachel: then like thing, it wasn't draining well anymore. So I was like, usually I make Cody do it, but I was like home alone and I was in the middle of snake that drain.
[00:56:06] It's like, I'm gonna do this. And it's like the worst I can do. Like kid vomit kid. Mm-hmm. Poop. Oh yeah. Doesn't phase me. Like I'll even your kid has ly I'll help you pick NIS out of it. Like, I don't care. I mean, I'm out there, but the drain with the soap scum, I draw the line. Oh yeah. No, I feel that. Ah. So that is part of why I remember to remove my hair because this has become like a thing for me.
[00:56:34] Sure. Um, also, like I get annoyed if Cody like shaves or buzzes his hair and then. It's like around his, it's on the sink. His
[00:56:40] Alyssa: sink or like Yeah. I'm just like, ugh. Well, and we have one sink over here and I will, it's like, you know, I'm not a details person. No know, but I will find all those hairs. Mm-hmm.
[00:56:50] It's like you find what your brain's looking for, right? Like, so I gratitude practice works. Yeah. And I am a, apparently looking for those hairs 'cause I'm looking for a fight about it and uh, it drives me absolutely insane. It's the thing I'm most looking forward to one day for having what we call partner sinks.
[00:57:08] Uh, and not having to just see his hair nibbles where he's like, I've cleaned them up. And I'm like, totally, totally. Here's all the places I can see them and I'm just really looking forward to not looking.
[00:57:20] Rachel: I mean, we have, we have partner sinks, but I don't also want them on his side either. Like it's just gross.
[00:57:27] Alyssa: Yeah. I'm not here for
[00:57:28] Rachel: it.
[00:57:29] Alyssa: I'm not here for it. Um, so, you know, past Alyssa signed Future Alyssa up for teacher appreciation week. 'cause here's what happened. You know, I've worked in the field of early ed my whole life. Mm-hmm. And my whole adult life. And last year was Sage's first year at a center. So the, he had a, we had a nanny that first year that he was alive.
[00:57:51] It was like covid year. And then he went to a family childcare program and it was there that I was like, oh, I'm gonna, I also was like a parent to one child. I had a lot more capacity and I was like, I'm gonna spearhead this. And just did something like, came in and decorated in the morning and just like did something every day that week for his provider.
[00:58:14] And she remarked, she was like, and no one's ever done this like this, like, and I was like, that's insane to me. My experience as a teacher had always been that. Teacher appreciation week is every day of the week. There's something, sometimes it's just like a handwritten note or a thing from a kid or whatever.
[00:58:31] Mm-hmm. It doesn't have to be like insanity, but there was some token of appreciation every day that week. So that's all I'd known as a teacher and a director. So did this for a family childcare provider and I was like, oh, it must just be like, because there's no admin to step in and support it happening.
[00:58:48] Like families just didn't know like how to navigate teacher appreciation. And then I Sage just at the center and last year again, the families ran teacher appreciation week, which interesting. As a director, I always like organized the theme and then invited families in for help with things. Mm-hmm. Can somebody sign up to bring breakfast or whatever, you know?
[00:59:10] But the families organized it and the way that they did it was like on Friday of that week, the teachers got a handwritten note with money, which means all week long while they're. Colleagues in other schools are getting celebrated. They're receiving no appreciation or acknowledgement of appreciation.
[00:59:31] Mm-hmm. And that's just how I learned, like that's how the center had always done it. It's kind of the tradition that had been passed on so past, Alyssa said, Hey, I would love to take on like any teacher, like gifting stuff next year. Yeah. And it snuck up on me for the holidays when we did a holiday gift and then it snuck up on me for teacher appreciation week.
[00:59:52] But I organized this like week of activities and um, got our village together to like, help me make a banner and do these things, whatever. And. Then this morning was like setting everything up and like I had to make some pivots on the way. I was gonna get like a thing of Dunkin Donuts coffee, which like just let it be okay.
[01:00:12] There's no other option on my way to school other than Dunkin Donuts in terms of a large coffee thing and like their system was down, whatever. I made all these pivots. I created this like spread this morning as like the first kickoff was like breakfast. And I'm like, Ooh, great. Got the bulletin boards all set and stuff.
[01:00:32] And then I'm chatting with, uh, one of the admin about just early ed stuff as we're making coffee at the center so that I can deliver, have coffee available for these teachers. And I get this message from you that's like, Hey, I'm gonna be a couple minutes late. And I'm like, oh my God. I thought I was like crushing the morning.
[01:00:52] I was like, I'm slaying. I'm gonna get home in plenty of time. In my head, this was happening at 10 and not nine 30. Mm-hmm. So thank you for your patience. Um, yeah. And it was a real, like, humbling. You don't have your ass all together, Alyssa. Well also you don't have to. It's fine. No, yeah. Just sometimes I have this, um, idea that I, I do have it together and then you just sneak in with little things like, Hey, you're a half hour late to our recording sesh.
[01:01:23] Rachel: Oh, man. Yeah, we, so last year I was on, actually the last two years I was part of like the PTA at Nora and Ablel’s school. So it's a large part of teacher Appreciation week and. My friend who was the head of it, is now a teacher at Pine Tree. And so it was handed off to a lovely couple. Um, and with me like taking on more work here at Seed, I was like, cool, great.
[01:01:52] Off my plate. Um, so when we had been involved with it, we did something every day too. And this year, uh, PDF was sent out, like reminding parents and like giving some ideas and stuff, but it's not as cohesive as it has been. Mm-hmm. And so I'm feeling kind of stressed about it for them. For the teachers.
[01:02:11] Yeah. Like I know it's not on me 'cause I'm not part of the committee this year, but I still feel like hot. That would be the same. Yeah. I'm like stressed. I'm like, I actually wanna come in and fix this and just, yeah. Like, I actually wanna do everything every day, so. Mm-hmm. Well, because you
[01:02:26] Alyssa: just want them to feel seen and loved and appreciated because being a teacher is hard.
[01:02:29] It's so hard. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I felt. I was like. It's not for me. He actually had one parent who when I sent out the like, here's the itinerary for the week, um, that was like, wow, are we biting off more than we can chew? Like it, you're like a school administrator. It's this is gonna be your full-time job.
[01:02:52] And in my head I was like, well actually everybody pitches in in some capacity. This is super breezy. Mm-hmm. I did have one parent volunteer to help with a task, which is great 'cause I'm traveling for three of the days this week I'm out of town. Um, just a fun other edition, but whatever. It's all I like had, last night Gabby made the banner that we hung up Nice.
[01:03:19] And Fran was cutting up pieces of paper and I was writing on bags. And Zach, you know, everyone was like doing a task to just organize all the things for the week and I feel like we're in a good spot. Awesome. Yeah, that's a good feeling. Who are we chatting about today? Okay, we are chatting about Jessica Zucker.
[01:03:36] Oh my gosh. When she reached out to me, I died a little bit because it, it's just one of those people where she's had such an influence in my life and she didn't even know it. Hmm mm-hmm. Yeah. I
[01:03:49] Rachel: listened to it this morning and one of the things that really stuck out to me was this idea of replacing the culture of silence with storytelling.
[01:04:00] Alyssa: Yes.
[01:04:01] Rachel: And I think especially around experiences that happen to women, there's so much silence, and you guys covered like menstruation, birth, miscarriage, she talked about her cancer diagnosis. There are just so many things that, and I think especially with reproductive cancers, yeah. We just have this sort of culturally ingrained shame about.
[01:04:25] And then we're kind of stuck in isolation because we don't feel like we can be honest about our lived experience.
[01:04:32] Alyssa: It's the fear of infecting the happy people. Right. Like, and that you don't know who can handle it. Right. So I found for myself, there are a few times where I shared with people and they would silver lining it.
[01:04:45] Mm. And when that happens, they're like, oh, that's so sad. At least you know you can get pregnant. Right. Like those sorts of things. Yep. Um, oh, thank goodness it was so early. Right. Like those responses that I then was like, oh, it actually feels crappier to share and receive that response than to not share.
[01:05:11] Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think again, that goes back to how our culture is so uncomfortable with grief. Yeah. Not to excuse it 'cause it's not the right way to approach somebody who's navigating grief. But a lot of people, I think, don't really have any experience showing up with empathy in those moments.
[01:05:36] Mm-hmm. Because to be empathetic, you also have to be vulnerable. There has to be like a reciprocal vulnerability. And I think about my own upbringing and how when hard things were happening in the lives of people that my family knew, there was a lot of like hush hush about it. Like
[01:05:59] Alyssa: Sure.
[01:06:00] Rachel: And I remember like learning that one of my aunts had, she had been pregnant with twins and had lost one of them.
[01:06:06] And I didn't learn about it until years later. And I was kind of told like, just don't discuss this with anybody kind of a thing. And I think like if it's the person who's navigating the situation and they're saying like, I don't wanna talk about it, absolutely respect that. I think we accidentally add shame and we kind of add fuel to the fire when we're talking about things that a lot of people experience and, and we're making it seem like it's a bad thing to talk about.
[01:06:37] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah. And it, you're right, it's the discomfort. And this is where I had shared, like with my first miscarriage, I didn't share 'cause I was nervous about infecting the happy people. I think that was part of it. And also that I grew up around humans that I knew they can't handle my sadness.
[01:06:58] Mm-hmm. Right. Sadness, specifically sadness and grief was something that the people in my. Like close cultural context growing up did not have capacity for mm-hmm. Where it was distracted out of, et cetera. And so I just learned from such a young age, you know, when they're crying and I'm sad and I'm three and every time that it was sadness, it was distracted out of, they needed it to go away as fast as possible.
[01:07:30] I just learned like, yeah, they can't handle my sadness. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[01:07:35] Rachel: I think so many of us come into adulthood with that mm-hmm. Sort of idea about what is okay to express. And even like if you are, if you are sad in front of people, like I still will like be embarrassed about crying in front of people.
[01:07:51] Sure. Totally. You know, I hate, I actually hate crying in front of people. Then I find myself in this like weird situation where, for example, like let's say I've been crying on the way to school, drop off.
[01:08:03] Alyssa: Yeah.
[01:08:04] Rachel: And then I'm like trying to, like, I'm looking in the mirror and trying to make sure I don't look like I've been crying.
[01:08:10] And of course my kids are asking why, and I am stuck in this situation where I've told them their whole lives that it's like totally fine to cry and like if you're upset, it's natural to cry and I'm here for you and nobody's gonna judge you if you're crying in whatever else. And then I don't wanna go into their school looking like I've been crying
[01:08:30] Alyssa: a hundred percent.
[01:08:31] You know? Oh, I so relate. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I did have like a, oh, I'm rewriting this from my childhood to Sage's, uh, very recently where. One of the things we've been talking about is if he's playing with peers and he gets to the point where he's so out of control that he can't be kind, that he's yelling with things or he is not being kind to his sister or he is not being kind to us, that we are, that it was, we've said, you're not in trouble.
[01:09:04] We're gonna move your body and help you get back to a calm space. You can take your time. There's no rush. But when you're in a place where you're able to be kind, then we'll reenter the play. And really working on like helping him start to notice when he is so high in the yellow that he's going into the red and being able to find that ebb and flow for himself that he doesn't have yet.
[01:09:32] It's a skillset he has not yet built. And so he'll get up into the yellow and it's a high yellow, and this happened recently where he was playing with a friend and. They were outside at our house, the family's over, we're all hanging out and it's about time for the, like, we're gonna do Tubby, the other family's gonna go home.
[01:09:55] And we'd all been playing outside. The kids were like, muddy and gross. And the friend was like, let's go inside. And I said, oh, we're gonna play outside today and we'll go inside another time. You guys are all muddy and it's almost time to go home. And the friend ran inside who's also at that point, dysregulated and said, Sage, come on.
[01:10:14] And sage like in this maniacal like laugh, which for me is always a signal dysregulation for him. He like runs inside and slams the screen door and like goes upstairs. And I went after him, calm, cool, collected, but went after him, like followed them in there. They'd slammed the door and I just standing outside the door, said, uh, Hey bud, you need to come.
[01:10:41] Opened the door. They had locked it his bedroom door. I said, you need to come unlock the door. I'm gonna count to five. When I say five I'm gonna get the key and unlock it. I was a spoiler alert. I have no idea where the key is. Uh, and no idea. Zach was like, what was your plan? I was like, oh, I was gonna find a bobby bin or something.
[01:10:58] Rachel: And yeah, I'm sure you could pick it. It's fine.
[01:11:00] Alyssa: Yeah. Sage did say, he's like, we have to open that before she says five. And he came over and the friend went like running out and Sage came out and I said, do you wanna walk back outside or should I carry you? And I know like, now is not the time to whatever.
[01:11:16] And he was like, carry me. And he came into my arms and I could tell, like it was like a thank you for helping me when I couldn't help myself. Yep. And we've noticed it a couple times where like he'll get to that point and he's so outta control and he's doing something that doesn't feel good inside for him, but he can't stop.
[01:11:37] Mm-hmm. And. So we have what I told him, I was like, now going forward, when your body is outta control and you're having a hard time being kind, we're just gonna pull you aside. We're gonna help you. You're not in trouble. And so I did it literally last night, removed him from the group dinner table, pulled him to a separate space and I said, Hey bud, you're not in trouble.
[01:12:02] I'm not mad at you. I'm just gonna be in here with you. Sometimes our bodies just need a break from all the noise and everything happening so that we can be kind. And he's like, I'm ready to be kind. I'm ready to be kind. He is like, be in just like weird and wild. And I was like, oh, I notice that your voice is still really moving fast.
[01:12:17] Your body's having a harder time sitting still. We can wait. And I was, we had books available and I was like, do you want me to tell you a story? And he was like, no. And like being weird. And then he was like, yeah, tell me a story. Mm-hmm. And then I told him a story and then he calmed and he like snuggled into me as he calmed.
[01:12:36] And I said, oh, it feels so good to come back into your body. Huh. And I was like, are you ready to go back in now? And it doesn't mean the rest of the night was like smooth sailing, but he then was able to like access regulation again and practice things like saying, oh, I don't wanna do that. Mm-hmm. Or, that doesn't feel good to me.
[01:12:55] Or for me, do a peer that it's really hard to do that when you're dysregulated. Hmm. And I was like, this is something I did not receive in childhood where I would've just like been in trouble on repeat for doing the thing I wasn't supposed to do with nobody helping me build that skill for how to access regulation and then self-control.
[01:13:16] Hmm. Yeah. It's a good feeling for me in the moments when I notice, I'm like, oh, I'm rewriting this.
[01:13:22] Rachel: It's such
[01:13:22] Alyssa: a
[01:13:22] Rachel: good feeling. Yeah. But I'm not rewriting,
[01:13:26] Alyssa: and I also
[01:13:27] Rachel: notice those moments. Oh, I mean, same. But I do think like, yeah, I have those moments too where I'm like, okay, yeah, this is, this is different than what I experienced and it was my goal for it to be different than what I experienced and I'm feeling good about it.
[01:13:43] And yeah, there's tons of stuff that I'm still like, I open my mouth and then afterwards I'm like. Wow. That's exactly what I didn't wanna say. Yeah. Um,
[01:13:54] Alyssa: a hundred percent. But I, it reminded me just of this episode of like how powerful it is that at any point we can rewrite these patterns, right? Yeah. That we can start telling stories, we can expose children to the things that we learned needed to be secret and thus shameful.
[01:14:12] Mm. And instead just be able to talk about periods and miscarriages and all that jazz and for them to, to normalize it. Right. Just like her book's titled to Normalize. Yeah. These body processes. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
Connect with Jessica:
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Website: drjessicazucker.com
Order the book: Normalize It: Upending the Silence, Stigma, and Shame That Shape Women's Lives
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