Your Kid’s Struggling. Now What? With Kelly Fradin, MD

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and I am so jazzed to share this episode with you because if you've ever worried about your child falling behind, wondered whether a diagnosis would help or hurt or felt overwhelmed by navigating learning differences, this one's for you. I got to sit down with Dr. Kelly Fradin, pediatrician and author of Advanced Parenting to unpack how we can support our kids when they're struggling, not just academically, but emotionally and socially too. Kelly has this whole child approach that I just adore. We dove into how to talk to kids about brain and body differences in a way that builds identity and confidence, how to manage the big emotions that come up for us as parents when something feels off, and how to advocate for your kid while keeping their mental health front and center. This episode is rich with practical tools and so much compassion. I'm excited to bring it to you, and after the conversation, stick around for the breakdown with Rachel, my co-author of Big Kids, bigger Feelings where we reflect on what this looks like in real life. All right, let's dive in.

[00:01:15] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:32] Let's dive in together.

[00:01:37] You're a mom to two kiddos. How old are those kiddos? Yes, so I have a 7-year-old girl and an 11-year-old boy. Right in our big kids bigger feeling spot there. 

[00:01:48] Kelly : Yes. And I think those big kids, honestly, uh, that's why I was so excited for your book because I think that sometimes parents are adrift, you know, there's so much content for the littles.

[00:01:58] Yes. And then once they hit elementary school, it's kind of like you're on your own. Good luck. 

[00:02:02] Alyssa: Yeah. We, that's what we were saying when we wrote the book, that it, it's like we were sold this myth that the early years are so hard and exhausting and that the emotional lives of teenagers. Thanks, Lisa, to more on your work there are, are so emotionally exhausting and that.

[00:02:19] The myth is that there's this sweet spot in the middle where things are just like chill and easy and you're just coasting. And we know that they're still humans and they're still navigating so much developmentally and so many shifts and changes. And I don't think we have enough resources for parents in those middle years, um, to be able to support them.

[00:02:41] So I'm, I'm just to be able to get this book out into the world too. But what really drew me to your work is we have a chapter in Big Kids where we're talking about diagnoses and learning differences. And one of the things that I think is, is so challenging in that space is navigating that like emotional experience of learning differences and diagnoses for these kids that if they, we share this story in the book of this little girl we were working with who.

[00:03:15] Her mom shared this with us. They had a birthday party and her mom knew that she was behind in reading in comparison to her peers, but they had a birthday party and they're playing a game where you had to read a word and act it out, charade style. And it came to her and she didn't wanna have a turn. And they were like, no, everyone's gotta go, everyone's gotta go.

[00:03:37] And she pulled out the word and she couldn't read it and her peers had all been able to read their words and she's frustrated and all that. And it was the first time her mom really saw like, oh, this is affecting her socially as well. And the way that was impacting her and her daughter really realized in that moment, oh, everyone else could read theirs.

[00:04:00] And so that like emotional journey, she ended up, she now has a dyslexia diagnosis and she's receiving support and services and. Went on, we went on to share more of her story where her younger sister was surpassing her and reading, and just the emotional journey of that. So I'm excited to get to chat with you about what it looks like to kind of shift that lens from what's wrong with me to this is how I learn.

[00:04:30] Kelly : Yes. I think it's such an important topic because parents try so hard to do the right thing for their children. And you know, we have this sense that being hypervigilant about their milestones and achievements isn't helping them. And you should let childhood unfold at the pace at which it's going to unfold.

[00:04:52] But then there's also this awareness that if you miss early signs of a diagnosis or learning difference, that your child will not have all the resources they need to thrive. And so striking that balance between. Patience and being aware of where a child is and what support they need is, it's such an art.

[00:05:12] So I'm happy to talk about it because I also think there's this emotional layer, parents face, and even within marriages, um, sometimes one parent is more aware, more concerned than the other parent, and it, it can throw off the whole family dynamic and add tremendous stress. 

[00:05:27] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Yeah, a hundred percent.

[00:05:29] I love this. I'm so jazzed to dive into it because the US part of it comes up and it's, yeah, if you're in a two-parent household, the US part is times two, and you're gonna have different relationships to different diagnoses or what it means, what it might mean about your kid, what it might mean about you as a parent, your fears for the future, and all the narratives that we're coming to adulthood with.

[00:05:52] Oh, I'm so stoked for this conversation. So first and foremost, I guess what I'm curious about is. How you talk to kids about their brain or body differences in a way that kind of builds that identity, confidence, understanding. Do you have some guidance for us there? 

[00:06:13] Kelly : Yes. It's interesting because I think you wanna set the tone for all kids, not just kids with learning differences.

[00:06:21] And so there are opportunities to do this in childhood, to point out, you know, we point out emotional literacy, right? We point out this person's happy, this person's sad. Um, and then I think somewhere between five and seven you have an opportunity to also observe that different people are different and have different temperaments and strengths and skills and, and to be able to observe those differences.

[00:06:45] Without always judging them. It's not always somebody's really good at this or really bad at this, or somebody's, uh, you know, annoying or, or really social. Um, but sometimes it's just we are different from each other. Yeah. And that's part of what makes us who we are. And so I think as a parent, that's a beautiful thing to teach your child in that window and it can then scaffold them when they're older because pretty much everybody has something, you know?

[00:07:11] Yeah. That we're all different humans. It's also just a base for things like body image or puberty. It's so, or even just, um, people are asynchronous in their achievements. Like maybe they're good at math and not at English, and, and it's just who you are. And that's okay. And that's part of what we love about you.

[00:07:30] Alyssa: I think about this in my household. We have a sensory mismatch where my son is sensory sensitive. He's neurodivergent and. The way that his brain and body function or his nervous system is so different in how it interprets the world than my daughter who's a sensory seeker, high connection seeking. She's gonna be in your space, in your face, wants to be included, wants to hang out.

[00:07:54] The more people the merrier. And he is like, can I have maybe one human who's near me, but like, not right on top of me talking, but maybe quietly and we can play together. And like, that's his, that's his jam. And my husband and I similarly like, are very different from each other in our nervous systems. And so we have this, this rich opportunity in my household to talk about how our brains and bodies work and how they're different from each other, what's similar and what's different.

[00:08:28] And without the good or bad, just with the what is and how we function and thrive. And I love that as just a foundational part of doing this, of how we learn so that it's not a, there's this one way that everyone learns and I learn differently. 

[00:08:46] Kelly : Yes. But I think a lot of parents struggle with is that they don't wanna plant seeds in their children's minds about them being different or worse or not as good or whatever it may be.

[00:08:59] But the truth is that most children. Are incredibly observant and aware of even the microscopic ways in which they're different than their peers. So, so I worry more about a child who's observing differences in themselves and coming up than with their own stories, than the harm of a parent planting an observation, because I think most children already know.

[00:09:23] And so they'll start to draw value judgments or assumptions about what it means to be them. And so I don't want children to have to navigate that alone. So I think it's really a gift when you as a parent can, um, can set the stage. For this, for your child, be like, oh wow. One of your classmates is reading chapter books.

[00:09:42] That's really an impressive feat. And not all kids your age can do that. And that's great for them. And I know that you'll read at your own pace when you're ready. And I'm here to help you learn. You know? And, and that doesn't make you less, that you're not doing that yet. You know, just the, so if you can, you can observe the differences alongside your child and then that also will be the voice they hear in their own head.

[00:10:05] It's like, oh, my mom said it'll be okay and we'll figure it out together. 

[00:10:09] Alyssa: And then their value in their worth isn't tied to whether or not they're reading chapter books. Right. That like, my mom knows that I'll get there at some point. I'll read at my own pace. And she still loves me. Yeah. Like she's noticed this too, and she still loves me.

[00:10:26] As a message. 

[00:10:27] Kelly : Yes. And I think where it gets more challenging is when you start to, the more concerned a parent gets, because that requires you as a parent to regulate your own feelings about it. And, and I think many families who have learning disabilities, the parents had learning disabilities or maybe maybe the co-parent had learning disabilities, you know, and that brings up a lot of tough feelings for the parents to manage.

[00:10:50] Like they remember struggling or it being hard or they never had to struggle and they're not familiar with why their child is struggling 

[00:10:58] Alyssa: and they're, 

[00:10:58] Kelly : they're probably angry or worried or upset and they can't possibly help their child, um, until they like kind of deal with some of that by leaning on their support system, their coping skills, their own regulation, which is hard.

[00:11:11] Alyssa: It's so hard. Can we chat about that? Like emotional weight of a diagnosis and where we go with that and, and how we navigate it? 

[00:11:23] Kelly : I actually think the hardest part for most parents is the uncertainty. That those parents who see that their child isn't quite keeping up or who get a couple of negative parent teacher conferences and don't yet have a label or a community or a plan, that part is like the hardest part I, in my experience for parents.

[00:11:43] And I think sometimes the question is like, how do you cope with that uncertainty? Because sometimes it is a plan. To say, we'll reassess in three months. And sometimes you're not happy with that plan, then you wanna choose a different plan. Um, but I think parents often make up their own plans without experts in learning domains because maybe they're scared to get their kid labeled at the school, or maybe they don't know what resources to access.

[00:12:11] And so I don't think parents should forget about their pediatrician. I know it goes to annual visits, but, but they're still there if you're trying to decide what to do. Sometimes things as simple as like checking, hearing, checking, vision and extra time, and thinking about other comorbid considerations like a DH, adhd.

[00:12:31] Mm-hmm. Or thinking about sleep and the quality of sleep and how that impacts learning. They can be really complimentary to helping you think through whether there is something medical there or not. Mm-hmm. And if there's not, then who else can help you in your community? Um. Make a plan that you feel more comfortable with.

[00:12:49] So I, I think you shouldn't have to do it by yourself. Yeah. You shouldn't have to be an expert. 

[00:12:54] Alyssa: Totally. Totally. And then we have the opportunity there to see the whole child, see the child as a whole person, and all the different ways that things kind of come into play and, and maybe are interacting with each other.

[00:13:06] Right. Like Rachel, who does the breakdown with me and is the co-author of Big Kids, she was just sharing the story the other night of her little one who's six. They were out to dinner and it was group of people and they walk in and there was this like strong odor of like fish in this place. And her son's sensory sensitive immediately picked up on it.

[00:13:32] He was like, oh, what does that smell? And he's like fighting through it. Fighting through it. And then eventually he's like melting down about the smell. He can't stay in the place, the smell and. Ultimately she was like, the smell's, the tip of the iceberg, right? Like we're out of his routine, he's hungry, it's getting late, it's almost bedtime.

[00:13:50] And now we're in a restaurant with a group of people. Dinner out is the hardest meal for him to do, uh, in a large group of people especially. And then you add this smell as like tip of the iceberg. And so now we have a meltdown. And when we're looking at kids, I think so often we see that tip of the iceberg.

[00:14:09] We see that thing and we're like, how do we make this thing shift? And I love this whole child approach. It's something I love so much about. Your work is really looking at. When we're navigating any diagnoses or learning differences and we can look at the child as a whole and not be like, oh, well all of these things are because of this diagnosis.

[00:14:29] And really be able to say, how can we support your nervous system as a whole and look at the whole child and also navigate the learning difference as a part of it. 

[00:14:38] Kelly : Yes, and and I think the other way to think of it is, is also in a strength based way. Yes. That a lot of children may have learning challenges.

[00:14:50] Or developmental differences. And they also do have some strengths that they bring to the challenge. And sometimes by leveraging those strengths, you can help them to find their way through. Maybe it's that they have some grit or perseverance, and they'll, they'll really put in the work to see the improvements.

[00:15:08] And that's something that you can craze your child for and, and provide positive feedback for and make them feel proud about. Or maybe it's their social skills and their ability to connect with other humans in, in other ways. I feel like most children have something that can compliment the thing that they're struggling with.

[00:15:25] Yeah. And, and if they don't also, like they're really just in a bad place. Helping them find that safe space is part of what a parent can do. Outside of what the experts are doing to help with the learning disability or because, you know, whether it's like, you know, your child is working really hard on reading X many hours a week and, uh, you know, maybe they've been pulled aside from some of their peers in school to focus on this and, but you can get them into an art class that they really love or a sports class that they really enjoy and also give them a break from that sometimes.

[00:15:56] And like that, that has value too. 

[00:15:59] Alyssa: Yeah. And I think when we're looking at that like emotional weight piece of it for us as adults to get so clear on what is coming up for us, what's the narrative we have about this, and recognizing that the world that our child's growing up in is not necessarily the world that we grew up in, around what a diagnosis meant, both short term and long term.

[00:16:23] Right. Even looking at like accessibility features for things that I. Was chatting with a parent recently who was like, gosh, she is dyslexic. Her daughter is dyslexic. And she was like, the number of resources that are available for her just because we're in the year we're in that weren't available for me when I was growing up are remarkable.

[00:16:47] And the way that it's just like built into systems now similarly to was having a conversation with a friend who's gluten-free and she was like, I was gluten-free when gluten-free wasn't like a thing. And she was like, there weren't just like options everywhere and accommodations made. She's like, now it's so rad as a gluten-free human that this is available in, in such a different way in terms of options and being able to see that the narrative that we have about this diagnosis and the things we believe to be true about it.

[00:17:19] Are often from our childhood and a time that we're not living in presently. 

[00:17:24] Kelly : Yes. I do think sometimes people jump ahead and have catastrophic thinking impact these things. And it's like if you have a child who like fails a grade, uh, that they might not be able to go to college, they might be able to get a job to, might not be able to do X, y, or Z.

[00:17:42] And it helps to kind of name that it when you, when you find yourself doing it, 'cause we all do it and to be like, I am getting way ahead of myself or like, I am catastrophizing this. That's why friends are so important when you say it out loud to your friend, like, my child failed third grade and I'm worried they, I won't be able to go to college.

[00:17:58] It's like, well we have like, you know, 10 years to, to figure this out with them and, and we have so many resources and we know that that is getting ahead of ourselves. 

[00:18:10] Alyssa: Yeah, we are actually currently in the process of an assessment, potential diagnosis, and was having this conversation, my husband, where he very quickly jumped to, there was fear being expressed and I was like, tell me more about what's kinda like, what are you nervous this would mean?

[00:18:25] And he was nervous that it would mean that our child would like never live on their own, wouldn't go to college, wouldn't be able to have a job on their own, wouldn't have like love and a partnership and potentially a family if they want that someday. And we got to look at like what are the media representations that we've seen with folks with this diagnosis?

[00:18:47] What's his exposure been to folks with this diagnosis? And it's not of a person living a full life, and that is absolutely possible for our child. In fact will likely be the case that our child will get to have all these things, but it's not the story that we were told. It's not the story that he's observed, but getting really kind of down and dirty with like what's coming up for you is so huge.

[00:19:16] And then being able to move into what does the sun look like and what is real. I think we can jump into all of the like fears about what this means. And I think it's so key in our emotion processing to acknowledge those fears and be able to process and move through them and not then be parenting from a place of fear and reactivity so that we can show up alongside our child.

[00:19:45] Kelly : Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and I do think that those fears can be real barriers, uh, to getting your child the resources they need to succeed. Mm-hmm. I can't tell you how many people have put off evaluations or put off getting experts involved in their children's care because they didn't want to hear the answer.

[00:20:06] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:20:07] Kelly : Because they assumed that if it was that answer that the associations were somehow gonna be worse. And the truth is that getting answers and labels, I think of them as getting like the keys to the car or, uh, like the ticket, they help you get resources to help support your child, which is objectively true.

[00:20:29] And the other thing about about getting diagnoses is that you still retain agency of who you tell, who you don't tell, and what, um, changes you make to your child's educational environment or, or which changes you don't make. And so just because you get a diagnosis or get some information, it, you still have a lot of rights as a parent for what you do with that information and, and including whether or not you tell your child 

[00:20:55] Alyssa: Yeah.

[00:20:56] Kelly : How and when and what you tell your child. Um, so you still, I, I think it's important that parents feel empowered that the diagnostic. Journey it, it is about them having control of knowing more about their child and then deciding what supports to give their child and when, 

[00:21:14] Alyssa: what does it look like in supporting siblings or classmates, friendships and how these things might surface in that way.

[00:21:23] Thinking of the little girl in our book, right. Playing the game and her noticing she can't read the word, and then how that might show up in other spaces, or then her sister surpassing her in reading, you know? And so thinking about like, what does it look like? How, how can adults support inclusion and peer relationships?

[00:21:43] Kelly : That's a great question. I think what we know about learning differences is that they do have social and emotional impacts on children. Uh, most children, like I said, they didn't, they know, um, at least one or two years before they get a diagnosis of a learning difference that they are different and it can impact their self-esteem.

[00:22:07] And so I think when you're talking about making choices for what, what you do for those children, I am a big advocate for thinking about their mental health needs alongside because it's always better to give children coping skills early rather than wait for things to really get bad. So to assume that all children need self-esteem, support, and need ways to cope with stress in children who are dealing with learning differences, need that even more.

[00:22:37] Yes, so, so just jump right into giving them those skills. There are books, parents can do, you know, journals, there are therapists available, there are school counselors who can be sometimes accessible people just to check in and ensure that the child is getting the emotional and social support they need to cope with what they're doing.

[00:22:58] I, I think the space away from the diagnosis, the time away from the diagnosis, the recognition of other parts of them, those things matter and, and I think parents sometimes say no. And I talk about this also in the book I wrote, advanced Parenting because parents are often scared to say no because they have experts saying, well, you know, more is available.

[00:23:20] And sometimes with children it might be. Maybe they're getting OT and speech therapy and reading work, and maybe then they have to practice those skills on the other days and, and all of a sudden there's no space for play dates. 

[00:23:35] Alyssa: Mm sure. And 

[00:23:35] Kelly : playground time. And, and so sometimes you might say like, okay, this is enough and, and I need to preserve one day a week that my child has like off of work.

[00:23:45] Yeah. But, but that's still in the long run. You may see just as quick an improvement even if you slightly reduce the dose to preserve room for a little, a little freedom and rest in childhood. 

[00:23:57] Alyssa: Yeah. Oh, I love that advice that like more isn't always better, man. We live in a culture that loves productivity and that the, I also think it can feel.

[00:24:10] It can feel comforting as a parent to feel like, okay, we're doing something. And the like more I think can feed into that and to say like, we are doing enough and they're doing enough might actually be what they need. I love that permission, Kelly. Thank you for that. And thinking about how we can help empower our kids to share what they wanna share about themselves or advocate for their needs as as necessary.

[00:24:41] And even to be involved in these conversations. There's a lot of talking about somebody around somebody that can happen without talking to them, and I think it's pretty rad when we can include kids in these conversations wherever possible. 

[00:24:59] Kelly : Yes, absolutely true. That kids have opinions. About their own lives.

[00:25:06] Yeah. Sometimes it can be very simple, like, where do you do your work? Who do you do it with? What time of day do you do it? And giving them agency can make them more cooperative and more engaged in, in what work they're doing. Yeah. I think it's also true that kids can burn out. Yeah. 'cause even just the school day is quite long for a lot of kids.

[00:25:28] Mm-hmm. And doing work on top of that. Sometimes kids might need a break, sometimes kids might not fit with their tutor or with their, the therapist working with them, even if it's a really great resource, they just might not get along with your child. And there's a relationship there too. And so sometimes you might have to make changes to the support you might have, take breaks.

[00:25:51] You gotta stay kind of on your toes and be nimble with responding to like the situation you're facing. 

[00:25:58] Alyssa: Yeah, I was sitting in on an IEP meeting recently, uh, from the social emotional side and we're creating goals for this child and I realized like, we haven't asked this kid this, right? We haven't said to the kid, here's a goal we're working on.

[00:26:16] This is something we wanna help you learn how to do, and we've noticed that this seems challenging in the classroom. Here's some ideas we have for it. Do you have any ideas for things that might be helpful for you? I end up just having a conversation with this kiddo child is six, and just share that.

[00:26:36] Like, here's something we wanna learn how to help you do. And we've noticed that these parts of it seem really hard and I wanna help you figure that out. Here's some things I was thinking about. Is there anything that you can think about that might feel helpful and. She said, she was like, when everybody's talking at one time, my brain can't hear it.

[00:26:56] We were talking about transitions in the class and how like we would often see really challenging behaviors from her during transitions. And one of the goals was for her to be able to communicate either in a verbal or nonverbal way that she needed support during that transition. And she ended up sharing with us that that self-advocacy in those moments felt inaccessible because of the stimuli in the room.

[00:27:22] And we were like, okay, what if before we made the transition you were able to pop on some headphones or go into this quieter space in the classroom and we could tap to you when it was time to like line up, but that she wouldn't be a part of the initial transition where it was the most chaotic whatever.

[00:27:41] And we provided a few suggestions and then she kind of co-created this plan of like, what would feel best for her. We saw so much more success. I was like, gosh. It was just one of those instances where so many adults in an effort to help her, we're talking about her, but not to her. And kids are so smart.

[00:28:05] They're so smart, and they know so much when we can include them in the process. And I don't think we lean on that enough. And then we want them to all of a sudden show up in an empowered role where they know how their brain and body works and they can advocate for their needs, but we haven't practiced that with them in other capacities.

[00:28:28] Kelly : Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such a useful parenting skill it for everyone. Um, I, I will never forget my son when I was trying to get him to learn piano, and he's quite good at piano, but he did not like practicing. At one point it was like. When do you wanna practice? You wanted to practice in the morning before school.

[00:28:47] And I was sort of like, you're not gonna do it. That's not a good idea. But then of course that worked for, for six months. That like just giving him control and letting him pick a plan and letting him try it. It's amazing. Kids are really creative and they will always like surprise you with some of the solutions they come up with.

[00:29:07] But if the goal is to raise them to be independent and to, uh, solve their own problems, it's a great way to let them track. 

[00:29:15] Alyssa: Yeah, they get to practice with us, uh, which often slows us down and can sometimes be more challenging on our end at first, but is a great place to practice. Kelly, thank you so much for your work in this space and for honestly writing a whole book that gets to support us in navigating these things.

[00:29:34] Uh, where can people find you, learn more about your work? 

[00:29:37] Kelly : Thanks. So I, I do spend time on Instagram. Sometimes my account's called Advice I give my Friends because that's how I started it. I just share, um, pediatric and parenting sort of advice there. And then, uh, the book that I wrote most recently is called Advanced Parenting and you can find that anywhere books are sold.

[00:29:59] Alyssa: Awesome. Thank you so much, Kelly. 

[00:30:01] Kelly : Thank you for having 

[00:30:02] Alyssa: me. It's been fun chatting with you. Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:30:14] But the world just feels crazy right now, personally, professionally, it's nuts over here. Big kids coming in hot so soon. So soon. Yeah. So we're recording this before Pub Pub, but it'll come out after pub and it'll just be out in the world. Right? We wrote a book, know it's nuts. I excited people to get to put it into practice.

[00:30:42] Rachel: Same. I'm pulling strategies out of that bad boy on the daily. 

[00:30:47] Alyssa: Same, he like lied the other day. And there's this whole thing I've literally opened up to the lying section because I was like, you need to remind myself, why do kids lie? Like what might be the root of his lying right now? 

[00:31:00] Rachel: Yeah, we are. So Nora's school has a program where they do three days of outdoor school.

[00:31:06] Alyssa: That's cool. 

[00:31:07] Rachel: It's super cool. It's a great program. But obviously she was feeling super nervous about like being away, which also Cody's going because he's like presenting and stuff. But he'll be, he's a chaperone for the boys, so like, he won't be with her for a lot of time. Oh. It's like, 

[00:31:21] Alyssa: do they sleep over there?

[00:31:23] Rachel: It's, it's two nights. Yeah. Oh, good for her. Yeah. So she has been having anxiety for weeks leading up to this. And then, um, I knew drop off was gonna be a challenge this morning. Mm-hmm. Because like Cody will be meeting her there after work. And so like, she doesn't know what time he's gonna get there and I don't either, because it depends on when his work workday ends and like, there's just a lot of variables and she doesn't have control.

[00:31:49] And, uh, on the ride to school, she's asking me like, what if I get really bad anxiety when we're on the bus? And I'm like, yeah, what, what if you do, what could you do? And she like listed out her coping strategies and then she was like, what if I really wish that I had daddy in the night, but I don't wanna wake up my teacher just to get him for me.

[00:32:10] I'm like, yeah, I dunno. Like, what could you do? And then she like went through her like skills that we've been building, um, and I gave her some scripts and. But man, it's just that this is a 

[00:32:22] Alyssa: good rubber band stretch for her. 

[00:32:24] Rachel: It really is. So one of her friends is not going to outdoor school because she has a fractured foot.

[00:32:30] So she's volunteering in one of the elementary classrooms while her classmates are gone. And Nora's like, 

[00:32:36] Alyssa: sign me up for that. 

[00:32:38] Rachel: Nora's like, next year can I just volunteer in one of the classrooms? I'm like, Nora, they're not gonna let you do that just because you feel nervous about going to outdoor school.

[00:32:46] Like they're doing that for your friend. 'cause she physically can't participate in the activities of outdoor school. Like that's not gonna be a choice. Um, 

[00:32:54] Alyssa: Nora like two days before outdoor school to break her arm. Yeah.

[00:33:03] Rachel: Oh, well, she was actually reflecting, she's like, last year for outdoor school, dad didn't go and I was less anxious. And I'm like, yeah, anxiety tends to ebb and flow. And right now for you, it's happening more and you're having to tap into your strategies more. And there will be times in life where it's not gonna be happening this much, and you're not going to have to tap into your strategies as frequently.

[00:33:22] Mm-hmm. But man, when you're in it, ugh. I don't want her to experience hard things. 

[00:33:29] Alyssa: Of course not. Of course not. It's the, it's the shittiest hardest part of parenting is the actual building of resilience because it requires them to do the things, to experience hard things. Yeah. To practice. Mm-hmm. And come out the other side.

[00:33:47] And I also hate it. 

[00:33:48] Rachel: Oh, it like breaks me. And then, but on the surface, I'm like, you can do this. You can totally do this. You have, you totally do this. Which I do believe, I believe that she can do it, but I, she can do this. Feel. Just sad when I know that it's gonna be hard for her. Of course. 

[00:34:06] Alyssa: Of course. Yeah.

[00:34:07] And it's when they're younger especially, it's avoidable a lot of the times, right. That we can be like, oh, we just won't do the sleepover. We won't, whatever. I could have said, 

[00:34:16] Rachel: you're not gonna go to outdoor school. Yeah, I'll keep you home. Yeah. 

[00:34:19] Alyssa: We can rescue them a lot of the time from it and then eventually they're gonna be in the world with the neural pathway really strengthened saying You can't do this.

[00:34:33] Somebody's always rescued you from it 'cause you can't do it and you have no practice doing it. And it is so hard to build the neural pathways for resilience of like letting them practice and learn that they can do things and so Cool. When you see them do it. It's so cool. It's, and the messy middle part, I'm sorry.

[00:34:57] You're in it. 

[00:34:58] Rachel: I do feel very lucky because I have really good relationships with the staff and teachers at her school. And so I am close with the people who will be in charge of her care. And I actually went and talked to the vice principal who's going on the trip this morning and I was just like, Hey, when Nora and I were kind of rehearsing what she could do, if she started to have really bad anxiety, like your name came up, you were mentioned by her as somebody that she feels safe with.

[00:35:27] So I told her that she can ask for you at outdoor school if she needs help calming down. And this person was like, absolutely, thanks for letting me know. So they're very, um, I feel very connected to them and they really care about her, so that makes it easier for me to kind of push her through this too.

[00:35:44] A 

[00:35:45] Alyssa: hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. We had the new school transition this year where the kids Mila's first time at Childcare and Sage to a new preschool program. And I was like having flashbacks to him starting childcare and what that was like, and like just moving to a new classroom, but in the same school and what that was like, and to see him navigate this change has been really cool.

[00:36:16] He has so many rad skills in place from the practice. Yeah. And it even eased my like, okay, next year we have kindergarten and there are times where I feel nervous about that. It's not even here. Right? And I'm like, oh my God, what's it gonna be like, how's that transition gonna go? It's gonna be a different structure.

[00:36:35] He is gonna have to use his cognitive brain in a different way. And he went from a classroom of six, maybe eight kids max, to now his preschool classroom is 16 kids most days. And it's an incredible stretch of his rubber band. And he has done so well. And so much of that is the support that he's in, in terms of the environment and the practice.

[00:37:06] Yeah. That God, I remember when he was two and we were bringing him to childcare for the first time. It was like a week into that school year. And he didn't wanna go. And he didn't wanna leave and he didn't wanna leave. I'm like, yep, yep, yep. Totally like validating it. And we're on the way there and he still doesn't wanna go.

[00:37:22] And he said, I'm gonna be sad and I'm gonna be all alone at school. And in that moment I wanted to be like, I quit my job. We don't need this. Right. Like, we're going home. You're, 

[00:37:33] Rachel: you're not gonna be sad and alone. Actually, you'll not 

[00:37:35] Alyssa: be sad and alone. And it was so hard for me to support him through that of yeah, what is it gonna be like to be sad and feel alone, even though I know he's not alone there, he feels lonely.

[00:37:53] 'cause he doesn't have a safe connection with those people yet. Right. And God, it's so hard. Hate it. It's so hard to let them do the hard thing. 

[00:38:03] Rachel: I hate it, but it's like it is. The most important factor in building resilience is pushing them to do these things. And that's what I tell myself. I, I'll literally say to myself in my head, I do not want my kid to become an adult who feels like they can't do things that they can do 

[00:38:22] Alyssa: a hundred percent.

[00:38:24] And it's really unlocking access for them to, whatever their heart desires, whatever they want to do, that they know that they can do, that they can access when they've had practice. And man, just a frigging practice is so hard, so hard as an adult when you think back to like your tiny human self living with anxiety in your.

[00:38:52] Elementary years or coming into middle school years, kind of around Nora's timing. What, how did it show up for you and what do you wish you had that you didn't have? I actually was very similar 

[00:39:03] Rachel: to Nora. I did not like being away from my parents, particularly my mom and my parents did a good job, I think, of pushing me to continue to, like, I wasn't kept home because I didn't wanna go, but they weren't really sure what to do with my anxiety.

[00:39:21] Sure. It started really young and I think they're just kind of like. What is this? How do we deal with this in an 8-year-old? So it was a lot of like, you don't have to be afraid of that or like, you don't need to be upset. You're good, whatever. You know, like, whew, thank goodness. Now I'm not like I'm cured.

[00:39:37] Thanks for the cur to anxiety. Um, but really they were just doing the best they have was what they knew of course knew, right? And so I think like one thing that I'm really grateful for is that like I'm teaching Nora tools that I didn't learn until I was like in therapy as a 20-year-old and she's 10 and isn't that cool?

[00:39:56] It's really cool. I mean, still painful and like a lot of emotional energy, but I think that I would have been in a very different place as an adult if I had had tools for self-regulation that I really was not able to cultivate until I was an adult. 

[00:40:16] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was wondering, like when you think back on you at Nora's age with a similar profile when it comes to anxiety, being able to give her what you needed and how I think healing that might be for me to be able to give my child really what my younger self needed.

[00:40:37] Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, this actually ties into what we're talking about today with 

[00:40:41] Alyssa: Oh cool. What are we talking about? 

[00:40:42] Rachel: Okay, so this is Kelly Fradin. Yeah. Great. And this is like the emotional experience of diagnoses and differences and yeah, she had talked about how challenging like in families and her practice, parents who have a diagnosis and then their child has the same one.

[00:41:00] There can often be like this really complex mix of emotions and I feel that with Nora, Nora doesn't have a formal diagnosis of OCD, but. Given what I know about it, since I live with it, it's pretty clear. Um, and so there is this mix of like grief, of like, Ugh, damn, she's gonna experience this and it can be so hard.

[00:41:23] And also empowerment of like, I have this huge toolbox that I've created and cultivated, and I get to share that with her. And she gets this headstart of having this information so much earlier. So that my hope is that she'll understand that this anxiety and these fears that she has are one small part of her life and she can handle them without getting stuck there.

[00:41:52] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, I like the both and acknowledgement, the grief part of what this is and the recognition of the tools that you can share. Zach and Sage are very similar and I, Zach has felt some of that Yeah. Of like, okay. Yeah. I've learned a lot of things. At same like, he built a lot of his tools in his twenties and thirties and didn't have them as a kid, and now looks at how he's able to support Sage and navigate his, I don't even wanna say like differences, it's just he lives in, we live in a neurotypical world and he's a neurodivergent human.

[00:42:38] Right. And Zach's had a long time on Planet Earth doing that. Yeah. And now getting to like, share that with Sage, it's so helpful for me to A, I've had about 15 years getting to know Zach and how to support him to then be able to support Sage. A lot of the same things, and I think I'm a better mom to sage because I've had that with Zach.

[00:43:07] Rachel: Yeah, you have that perspective. 

[00:43:10] Alyssa: Yeah. And where he can like articulate, he said something the, oh, we were talking about vulnerability. And that vulnerability is really hard for Sage, that even if he's done something kind for somebody else and I say, oh buddy, that was so kind of you. I noticed that you helped beans or whatever.

[00:43:29] Sometimes he'll say like, don't say that. It hurts my feelings when you say that. And whenever there's so funny, it hurts my feelings. And he'll say, sometimes you say something you think is kind, but it's not kind to me. It hurts my feelings. Yeah. Too vulnerable. And it's usually, yes, it's usually when it's too vulnerable.

[00:43:52] And Sage is interceptive sensitive and so is Zach. And so we were talking, I asked Zach about this because Zach also has a hard time with vulnerability, and I was like, tell me more about what that experience is for you. And he said, he was like, the amount that I feel the vulnerability in my body can be so overwhelming that anything else on top of that, like if I'm already dysregulated in any other manner or if then I have to talk to somebody or receive information from somebody, it is beyond my capacity 

[00:44:31] that it's 

[00:44:31] just more than I can handle the interceptive experience.

[00:44:36] Those internal feelings and cues of vulnerability are so overwhelming for him sometimes that he either shuts down and won't be vulnerable. Or is then in a dysregulated state if there's, especially if there was any other dysregulation happening. Yeah. I was like, oh, it's so cool for me that I get to ask 30 something.

[00:44:59] Zach, this question that helps give me insight into Sage's experience. 

[00:45:04] Rachel: Yeah, it's super cool. 

[00:45:07] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. But he like has the articulation for it, right? Like that Sage obviously doesn't have yet, he can verbalize what Sage can't. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:14] Rachel: Yeah. 

[00:45:14] Alyssa: Yeah. And so then I can take that and say like, okay, how do I teach Sage about vulnerability and what he's experiencing inside his body and why it feels hard, even if somebody's being kind and now I'm on a little teaching journey around that.

[00:45:29] Rachel: Just 

[00:45:31] Alyssa: obviously say just favorite. 

[00:45:32] Rachel: Yeah, definitely lots of opportunities to practice being vulnerable. 

[00:45:38] Alyssa: Woo. So funny. I wanna like interview Brene about this. 'cause her work is so deep in obviously vulnerability and shame and I wanna look at it across neuro types and how this shows up for different nervous systems that I'm not an interceptive sensitive human vulnerability.

[00:46:01] For me, not that big of a lift to be honest. Mm-hmm. It's uncomfortable of course, but it's 10 seconds of discomfort and then I'm in the clear. And for Zach, he feels it so much deeper in his body and for longer 

[00:46:20] Rachel: Yeah, like more of a visceral response. 

[00:46:22] Alyssa: Yes. 

[00:46:23] Rachel: Yeah. 

[00:46:24] Alyssa: Because he feels everything deeper and for longer than I do.

[00:46:30] Rachel: Yeah. 

[00:46:31] Alyssa: What were your other takeaways from the diagnosis conversation? 

[00:46:35] Rachel: One other thing that I really loved that she pointed out was like, sometimes we have a fear of sharing a diagnosis with a child or pointing out a difference that a child may have because we think we don't wanna plant that idea in their head that they're different.

[00:46:51] And she said that like kids are extremely observant and can pick out like microscopic differences between themselves and their peers from a very young age. 

[00:47:02] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:03] Rachel: And I think that's so spot on. Like kids who have different needs already know that they have different needs but they don't know is how to meet them and that it's okay for their needs to be different.

[00:47:15] Alyssa: Yes, a hundred percent. 

[00:47:17] Rachel: You know, I think a lot of it is internalized shame from our culture as a whole and how we treat people who have brains, who work differently. So I think a lot of us are coming into adulthood and parenthood with some like fear-based and shame-based biases against diagnoses or naming things that we see.

[00:47:37] And if we can get past that, it's actually quite empowering for kids to know like, Hey, here's how my body and brain works. There's nothing wrong with the fact that it's different than my peer or somebody else that I know. And I have these tools for how to make my body feel good in this world. And I know that my parents are proud of me and love me.

[00:47:58] Alyssa: I feel like we inadvertently, not on purpose, but inadvertently create shame around diagnoses when we don't share them with kids or about them, because it's often invisible and it's not like if you walk by and you see somebody has glasses on, you know, oh, they need glasses to help them. See that's how their brain and body works.

[00:48:19] It's very visible to our eye when we're looking, when I think about this with sage and autism, we carry no shame around his autistic diagnosis and don't want him to. And we had somebody in our circle ask like, oh, are you going to use the word autism with him and like share about him having autism? And I was like, I mean, I'm not gonna do like a Facebook update to the world, but yeah, we're not gonna not use it.

[00:48:48] Mm-hmm. And they were like, okay, we just, just might be in like explaining to people like, what does that really mean? And I was like, tell me more. We got to like unpack that a little bit because I think there is inherent shame for a lot of folks, especially looking like generationally at what it meant to have a diagnosis.

[00:49:07] And that that's not necessarily the case. I think Sage will probably always be in an inclusive classroom and have supports and accommodations to be in there, but be in an inclusive classroom. And, and even if he wasn't, like, I look at this, I've been thinking about this a lot because there's. Right now in the news so much about autism and does Tylenol and pregnancy cause it and how are we gonna, you know, looking at RFK Junior, just like his mission seems to be, to want to get rid of autism, which to me tells me that he thinks there's something wrong with being autistic.

[00:49:44] Mm-hmm. And that's not my perspective on autism, that I love how sage's brain and body work, he is brilliant and has attention to detail in a way that I wish I had a lot of the time. It is not something that if I could change, I would change about him. Yeah. And so I think this whole, like, even as a selling, even the fact that this is in the news, like, oh, this is causing autism, it's like, wow, there's still so many folks who see it as.

[00:50:26] Something that's wrong with this kid? 

[00:50:28] Rachel: Yeah, I think like the hesitation to name it also to a child's peers, just like perpetuates that. So there was a child in the kindergarten classroom last year who, I'm not sure if he has a diagnosis or not, but some other children in the classroom had noticed that he was different.

[00:50:49] And one of them, I was just chatting with this group of kindergartners and this child who is not yet diagnosed, but likely autistic was not part of this group. And they were mentioning to me that they didn't wanna play with, I'll call him Adam. They didn't wanna play with Adam because it was gross. And I said, oh, what's gross?

[00:51:09] And they said, when Adam is playing, he doesn't notice that he's spitting when he is talking or if his nose is running, he doesn't notice. And I was like, totally. Sometimes when people are playing or they're really into something, they are not getting the messages from their body that they would usually get.

[00:51:26] He might not even be able to feel that he has a lot of spit coming outta his mouth or that he has boogers on his nose. So what could you say so that you could still play with him even if those things are happening? And then we just brainstormed. Like one of them was like, I could get him a tissue if his nose is running.

[00:51:41] I'm like, totally. You get him a tissue and say, Hey Adam, your nose is running. Do you wanna wipe it so we can all be clean while we play? And I'm like, totally. What about if you're playing really close to his face and he is accidentally spitting on you, what could you do? Another one was like, we could back up or we could ask him to back up.

[00:51:57] And so just like normalizing for kids that people's bodies work differently and it's not a reason not to interact with them and giving them language that's kind for. How to deal with that. Like I understand not wanting to be spin on, but that doesn't mean that Adam's gross, you know? Hundred percent.

[00:52:14] Alyssa: Yeah. And it's that, but it, it requires your own regulation and acknowledgement of our biases to then be able to have that conversation. Right. Part me, when I feel like, 

[00:52:25] Rachel: don't say he's gross, that's mean. 

[00:52:28] Alyssa: Totally. And other people might be like, yeah, it is gross. I wouldn't wanna be near somebody who's spitting on me either.

[00:52:33] Right. And so being able to recognize that our own stuff is gonna come up in these conversations and in these instances with kids and I, I err on the side of talk to the kids, talk to them with real terms, talk to them about what's coming up for them. Talk to them about why they are nervous to sit next to that person at lunch or whatever, because they think so and so might make fun of them if they sit next to them.

[00:53:01] Like talk to them about these things because otherwise kids are making up their own stories. Their own narratives about it, and we can provide context. We can help them understand things that they don't yet understand, and I think we hold so much power in being able to do that. And it requires us to get comfortable in the discomfort.

[00:53:27] I think about our chapter in Big Kids, where we talk about this, where we talk about diagnoses and differences, and also how to talk to your kids about hard things. And that ability to be in the discomfort is so crucial because it's gonna be uncomfortable. It's not gonna be a chill, cozy conversation.

[00:53:45] There's gonna be parts of you sometimes in these conversations that are like, I can't wait for this to be done. Just like, please also don't ask any more questions. 

[00:53:53] Mm-hmm. I really 

[00:53:54] hope that you don't ask something that I don't know. Yeah. Or that it has happened with us recently. And I was like, I got to the point where I said, you know what, buddy?

[00:54:02] I don't know how to answer that right now. I'm gonna find out the answer for you. And in the meantime, this is still the rule in our household. Mm. I'm gonna figure out a way to help you understand this and to explain it differently. But this is still the rule right now to keep everybody safe. 

[00:54:18] Rachel: Yeah. 

[00:54:20] Alyssa: Too many questions happened, and I was like, you're right.

[00:54:23] He's making a great point. And I don't know where to go from here. 

[00:54:25] Rachel: The other thing that I find so challenging with my kids is if I feel like or perceive that they are being unkind, I very quickly go to a place of like, no, this is how we treat other people and blah, blah, you know, same. And I need to slow down a little bit and get curious about what's going on under the surface and what maybe they're not understanding about a person or a situation or where.

[00:54:56] I haven't done a thorough job of scaffolding for them, because sometimes my gut reaction is to just shut 

[00:55:05] Alyssa: it down. Same, same sages lately around kindness is that he. Like many of us, he doesn't wanna be inconvenienced for kindness. And so I had said to him like, yeah, sometimes the kind thing to do means we have to pause what we're doing to help somebody with something.

[00:55:24] And he said, I don't wanna do that. I was like, yeah, I mean, I don't wanna pause making dinner or doing what I'm doing to open your bar or to do this thing for you. That's not fun for me. But part of being in relationship with each other is treating each other with kindness. And that's one thing that sometimes it's not going to be convenient for us.

[00:55:51] And his response was basically that he doesn't care and he doesn't care if he's in relationship with that other person. Was like the message. 

[00:55:59] Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:00] And he was like, I don't have to be in relationship with them. Or he said, I don't have to. We don't have to be connected and. It was like, yeah, fair. He's not a high connection seeking human.

[00:56:13] No, he is not. And so he's like, yeah, fine. If they don't wanna hang out with me, juice ist worth the squeeze. Really? I'm not, hundred percent. The juice is not worth the squeeze for him on this. And so I ended up telling him, I said, cool. You don't have to be, and if there are people that you do wanna be connected with, sometimes it will mean that it will not always be convenient to be kind.

[00:56:38] That there will be things that feel annoying that you're doing, or that you have to pause what you're doing to help somebody. 

[00:56:44] Rachel: Yeah. 

[00:56:45] Alyssa: And that might come up for you. 

[00:56:47] Rachel: Yeah. Or like the social stress, I think for kids of like being ANR in a social situation where the. Majority. Majority are wanting to exclude somebody and being the one who kind of goes against the flow and says like, no, I'm gonna make space for this person to be included.

[00:57:06] Super vulnerable, very vulnerable, can be a source of stress. Um, and 

[00:57:11] Alyssa: like you're risking your own social standing. Right. Which as social primates is scary. 

[00:57:16] Rachel: Totally. Especially in those elementary years where their brains are really shifting from like my primary caregivers and my nuclear family to Wow. I really care what my peers think now.

[00:57:29] Correct. And that, I think at this point with Nora, I feel like she has the self-advocacy skills well cultivated to be able to do that in social situations. And for Abel, he's still like, the juices not worth the squeeze. His self-confidence is lower than Nora's was at this age and less self-advocacy skills.

[00:57:51] So this is something that. We'll continue to keep working on is totally why it's important to do this and what it means to do this and whew. It's a real doozy. 

[00:58:03] Alyssa: Yeah. It'll be interesting to see what happens with sie and beans because beans has such high connection needs that I could see her being nervous about risking the connection with other humans to include somebody else.

[00:58:13] Rachel: Totally. I could also 

[00:58:14] Alyssa: see her just like more easily accessing empathy or compassion for somebody who's not included, and so I'm curious to see what happens there. I can see his age again, because he doesn't have high connection needs, having a hard time recognizing when somebody isn't included, because for him, I think it can often look like he's not being included in something when he's chosen to take space.

[00:58:38] Rachel: Yeah. He's like not included. That's a dream. 

[00:58:42] Alyssa: Please 

[00:58:42] Rachel: exclude me. 

[00:58:43] Alyssa: Please cancel plans. Hundred percent. Totally. Yeah. 

[00:58:47] Yeah. 

[00:58:48] And so like helping him access empathy, he's gotta understand what it feels like to be excluded. And there are moments that he definitely experiences that in places he wants to be included and feels left out.

[00:58:58] It's just way less than her, like the empathy and compassionately easy to teach her. And I think harder to teach him around that. 

[00:59:05] Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Nervous system plays a big role in, yeah, so much of their social stuff. 

[00:59:13] Alyssa: But I could see him not really feeling nervous about being excluded by other kids if he included somebody or like if he wanted to play with someone who was being excluded.

[00:59:27] But Sage just wanted to play with that kid. I could see him not thinking twice about it and not being like, oh, should I go and play with him or include him or whatever and just going and doing. 'cause he wants to play with that kid. 

[00:59:39] Rachel: Yeah. And he's not worried about being in the end group. No. 

[00:59:42] Alyssa: Yeah. No. Yeah.

[00:59:43] No. Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:44] Rachel: Yeah. 

[00:59:46] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. That sounds so nice. Chill. 

[00:59:50] Rachel: Yeah. To not be worried about being in the ingroup. Sounds really 

[00:59:53] Alyssa: relaxing. 

[00:59:54] Rachel: Never have experienced that one. 

[00:59:56] Alyssa: No. Same, same. 

[00:59:59] Rachel: Um, the other little like gem that I thought was in this, and she only talked about it for it was very brief, but helping kids recognize that learning and development can be asynchronous.

[01:00:14] So. This came up for me with Nora in math. Math has always been a struggle for her. She excels in other areas. This is also a little bit hard for me because I also really struggled in math and it became like part of my identity. Like I needed a math tutor and I didn't really believe that I could learn the math, which became Sure.

[01:00:34] A barrier in and of itself. 'cause I, there was part of me that just like shut down. So I was like, well, there's no point. I'm an idiot, you know, so my brain just can't do math. Yeah. I don't understand numbers. So siara. Um, and so I am trying to reframe that for Nora of like, yeah, math might be your hardest subject and that's okay.

[01:00:58] Everybody has a subject that's hard for them. It's okay if you need extra practice or whatever. But then it's like, when it's in the moment, I'm still so triggered from my own experience with it that I'm like, for lack of a better word, a bitch. Like she starts to get. Heightened. And instead of me being like, like I normally would, I'd be like, Hey, we're not being kind to each other.

[01:01:18] Let's step away. I get into this very like, power over dominance. I'm gonna punish you for your attitude mindset. It's like, I don't even know who's coming out of my mouth. I guess like 12-year-old Rachel probably. But I'm like, if I'm helping you and I'm taking the time to help you with this and you're gonna be rude to me, I'm not gonna help you.

[01:01:39] Like I turn into, I'm less mature than Nora Sure. In that moment. Sure. It's so bad, but it's, it's a trigger for me. So I'm going back into like that. Inner child experience of sucking at math. And my tolerance is my frustration tolerance is like zero. Yeah. So I have some work to do around this because I will continue to be the point person for her for math, just based on our family logistics.

[01:02:06] And Cody having way less patience than I do in almost every area of parenthood. Um, he's definitely Cody. I love you. If you're listening to this, you're not the person for the job. Um, he's like, yeah, no, for sure. Please 

[01:02:21] Alyssa: don't boot 

[01:02:21] Rachel: me a goat. Well, I really need to let 12-year-old Rachel know that I don't actually need her help at this.

[01:02:29] Yeah. And it doesn't matter whether she was good at math or not. We can handle sixth grade math with the help of YouTube and we will be able to help Nora learn prime factorization. We'll, we are. Look at us. We're doing it. Look at us now to just do it without being an absolute asshole 

[01:02:48] Alyssa: is sure the goal.

[01:02:51] Have you shared with Nora that math was hard for you and that's why you get triggered? She knows math was hard for me. 

[01:02:57] Rachel: I haven't told her this 'cause I just made the connection the other night as I was laying in bed feeling terrible about being rude to her, I started just doing internal family systems work on myself.

[01:03:08] Um, and I made that connection because we have also fought about homework last night. So this has happened. Mm-hmm. Nora's been in school for two weeks and we've had multiple fights over homework and her, and I'll have little like spats where I'll have to remind her to speak kindly, but we haven't really been at each other in a long time the way that we have over homework.

[01:03:28] And it's because I'm being emotionally immature when I'm dealing with it. Sure. I know that. So it's like now that I have that knowledge and I've, I identified the trigger, now I get to do the work of cutting the shit and being kind while I try to support her with, ah, you got 

[01:03:47] Alyssa: this. 

[01:03:47] Rachel: You 

[01:03:47] Alyssa: can do this. It's gonna be great.

[01:03:50] It's gonna be fine. Someone should write a book that I can reference. Well, and I think back, I'm like, I think we all have these, right? I was convinced that I sucked at science and now I'm like, oh, if I had the time and capacity, I would go get a PhD in neuroscience. You have such a stem brain. I have such a stem brain, and I just was never taught science in the way that I learn.

[01:04:15] Yeah. And now when I look back, I'm like, man, I so wish that I could go back and do it again. Knowing how I learned now. Because I think I would've really enjoyed science and also And slate at it also. Yeah. And slayed at it. I knew I was good at math and I felt confident in math. Numbers made sense to me.

[01:04:40] But yeah, I just like had this narrative that I wasn't good at science and then it changed like career paths I thought about for myself and all that jazz of like, well, what classes would I have to take? And the reality was, science absolutely makes sense in my brain. I just wasn't taught it the way that it makes sense.

[01:04:59] And I think about that when I look at, when kids are struggling in different areas, I'm like, ah, maybe we just haven't yet found the way that you learn this. 

[01:05:11] Yeah. 

[01:05:12] And maybe not. Maybe it's just something that is harder for brains to retain or learn different things, whatever. But even if it is, 

[01:05:19] Rachel: even if it is at baseline harder, I think the stories that.

[01:05:24] I was telling myself about math are not the stories that I want Nora to be creating about herself. 

[01:05:32] Alyssa: Yeah. It's also not true. You aren't inherently bad at numbers. You have not been taught math in a way that makes sense in your brain. 

[01:05:41] Rachel: Totally. I needed a lot more repetition. I actually did Okay. When I, um, I had a tutor after school, and so I, it was just a lot more repetition and then, you know, I was able to do it, but it was frustrating for me.

[01:05:55] Well, you can, like, 

[01:05:56] Alyssa: you're so visual. The way that your brain works is so visual and trying, I'd imagine trying to do math without visual supports would be very hard for your brain to conceptualize. 

[01:06:09] Rachel: Yeah. Listening to my teacher, just like explain it 

[01:06:12] Alyssa: totally. Or like, do this problem here and you're like.

[01:06:16] Okay. What? Like now I need some sort of visuals to work with. 

[01:06:19] Rachel: Right. Some step by step. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that has been getting back to what she was talking about that was helpful for me as I am, first of all, like I gotta deal with my attitude problems. But outside of that, just that reminder for kids to know like you're gonna be strong in some areas and other areas are going to be more of a challenge for you.

[01:06:40] And that's just part of the human experience. That doesn't say anything about your work ethic, your intelligence, your character. That's just part of being human. Yeah. 

[01:06:52] Alyssa: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Oh, I love you. I'm glad she gets to have you as a mom. 

[01:06:59] Rachel: I love you too. And I'm not sure she feels the same way.

[01:07:06] Alyssa: Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at Voices of your village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at seed dot and dot. So SEW take a screenshot of you tuning in. Share it on the gram and tag seed.

[01:07:27] Dot and dot. So to let me know your key takeaway, if you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.