When You Don’t Know What to Say: Talking to Kids About Hard Stuff with Melinda Wenner Moyer

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I got to hang out with science journalists and author Melinda Wenner Moyer to talk about something that so many of us wrestle with how to talk to our kids about the hard stuff. From climate change to inequality, to violence in the news. It can feel overwhelming to know what to say, when to say it, or even if we should say anything at all. Melissa's book, How to Raise Kids who Aren't Assholes, gave so many parents tools for raising kind, thoughtful humans. And her new book, Hello, Cruel World! continues that work by helping us navigate these tricky conversations with clarity, honesty, and compassion. In this episode, we dive into how to avoid toxic positivity without overwhelming our kids, how to model emotional regulation while still being real, and how to raise resilient humans in a world that doesn't always make it easy. All right folks, let's dive in.

[00:01:06] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts 

[00:01:17] of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:23] Let's dive in together.

[00:01:28] My inbox, frankly are like my to-do list where I'm just like, yep, yep. The tab stays open until it's done. And sometimes frankly, it'll never get done. Yeah. That's a tab that'll just live until my computer crashes at some point. I was gonna say, and then suddenly you're like, what was I supposed to 

[00:01:44] Melinda: do again?

[00:01:44] 'cause it's all 

[00:01:44] Alyssa: just in my tabs. Yeah, correct. A hundred percent. Oh yes. Especially in like wild, like busier times. Like you're probably in right now, like book launch time, right? Where it's just like, yeah, there's a lot of tabs. 'cause my brain has a lot of tabs. 

[00:01:59] Melinda: Yep, sure does. Yeah. Oh, that's so funny. I totally use it as like an organizational tool.

[00:02:03] Like, yeah, a hundred percent. Here's what I need to do. I need to look at all these things and deal with them. 

[00:02:08] Alyssa: That's right. That's right. And even like inbox, I'm like either, oh God, it's gone. Or it is forwarded to where it needs to go, or it's sitting there. Basically as my to-do list. 

[00:02:20] Melinda: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:21] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:21] Melinda: Yeah.

[00:02:22] Yeah. I have 161,000 unopened emails also, I just checked hilarious because I'm terrible about clearing stuff away. I get so many like PR emails too. That's, I just don't even open them and like, and then I delete them. I have to like 

[00:02:35] Alyssa: delete or forward to where it needs to go. That's so that only thing that's left is for me.

[00:02:41] No, that is very wise. I, it's never at inbox zero, just to be clear, but that whatever is there for, but not thousand. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's right. My like personal email is like that where I don't like delete things. I'm just like, oh yeah, this Old Navy or whatever thing just sits there. It never gets opened.

[00:03:03] It never, and that's fine for me, but my work, one, it's the only way I keep it organized. I don't have a, I need to have a separate 

[00:03:11] Melinda: work in. Personal. It's just all the same. That's my, that's another problem. We're clearly, I have some organizational, uh, limitations that we, I might need to address here at some point.

[00:03:22] Maybe not. Not today. Not today. Good. Not today. It's not the day. No, today's not the day. 

[00:03:26] Alyssa: I'm not a very organized human. Like it's not something my, uh, good friend of mine, you walk into her house and like the bins are, and she's got the same age kids that I do, we're living a lot of the same world and I'm like, how is this how your brain works?

[00:03:40] And you walk into mine and it's just a shit show. Yeah. And there's just like kids shoes and there's stuff everywhere and there's piles and I long. To be like, Dana, I long for that and I, it's just not how my brain works. 

[00:03:57] Melinda: No, I'm the same way and I have the same friend, Virginia. Yeah. And everything is so organized and pristine every time I go to her house and I don't understand.

[00:04:05] Alyssa: Yeah. Like can you move in? There's a part of me that's like, if I had somebody set up a system for me, it would be better. But I think in reality the system would just go to shit because I would leave stuff on the counter or whatever, and nobody would use the system. 

[00:04:21] Melinda: That's my problem. Like, I sometimes go through a weekend, you know, I'll decide like I'm gonna organize my cabinet mm-hmm.

[00:04:26] And I will do it and it will stay organized for like two weeks. Yeah. And then it starts to break down and then it's back to chaos like a month ago. 

[00:04:32] Alyssa: That's right. Yeah. And I live with too many humans who like, aren't also keeping the system. Yes. That is the other problem, you know? Yep. I, I feel like I just, uh, the other day, my mother-in-law's so helpful.

[00:04:46] She's super involved in our life. She lives a mile from us. She's awesome. Laundry had been folded, which is a gift from the gods, and then put away in the kids' drawers. 

[00:04:55] Melinda: Wow. 

[00:04:55] Alyssa: But just like, not the way that I put it away. Right. And so I, I was like, Alyssa, you gotta let this laundry was folded and put away.

[00:05:04] Right. That is a gift. That is amazing. That is a gift. I can't find the shirt I'm looking for, for Mila, but like it's, I'm sure here. Right, right. It's in one of these drawers. It's 

[00:05:14] Melinda: somewhere. 

[00:05:15] Alyssa: But that is, it is like, eh, when I ask for help or outsource things, then I have to deal with the fact that it's not gonna be done the way that I would do it.

[00:05:24] It's not gonna be exactly the way you would do it. 

[00:05:25] Melinda: Yeah, yeah. This is very true. 

[00:05:28] Alyssa: Which I 

[00:05:28] Melinda: hate. Yeah, it's, it's a hard, you know, but it's like, well, I'm so glad this was told. But like, yes, 

[00:05:36] where's my 

[00:05:36] shirt? That's right. That's right. 

[00:05:38] Alyssa: Yeah. Melinda, do you have 

[00:05:41] Melinda: kiddos? I do. I have two. I have a 14-year-old boy and a 10-year-old girl.

[00:05:46] Sweet. Yeah. Rad, rad. Where are you located in the world? Cold Spring, New York. So 60 miles north of New York City in the Hudson Valley. Oh, okay. Near my friend Vanessa. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, I actually just saw Vanessa, she was, she interviewed me for my book launch in Garrison, yeah. New York. So, yeah, she's like probably 45 minutes south of me.

[00:06:07] Alyssa: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Uh, I'm from Western New York originally, like the St. Bonaventure area. Very, oh, wow. Very western New York, like south of Buffalo. And then I went to undergrad in Binghamton. Okay. So I just like kept moving my way closer. And then with my girlfriends, we all moved to the city after college and did the city thing.

[00:06:26] Melinda: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:26] Alyssa: For a bit. Yeah. Um, same here. And yeah, I, I, right. So it feels like a natural rotation. Where'd you do undergrad? 

[00:06:33] Melinda: I was at University of Michigan actually, but then my grad school was in NYU, so. Okay. That's what brought me to New York. Was Got it. Yeah. Got it. In grad school. Are you 

[00:06:40] Alyssa: from New York State?

[00:06:42] Melinda: No, I grew up in Atlanta, actually. Oh, cool. I moved all around. I was in Atlanta and then I went to boarding school in New Hampshire. Then I went to Michigan, then I moved to England. Then I came back to, and moved to New York. And I've been in the state of New York now since, yeah, 2005. 

[00:06:57] Alyssa: Okay. Rad. Um, I have some boarding school questions.

[00:07:01] Can we chat about boarding school for a minute? Of course, of course. I'm so curious. Uh, was it that you wanted to go to boarding school or your family, it was just like a part of your family culture? 

[00:07:11] Melinda: Um, I wanted to go, but the reason I wanted to go was because my sister went, my sister was kind of like given several options in high school and one of them was boarding school.

[00:07:22] Cool. Uh, and she chose it and I think it, I. She wasn't sure that she wanted to go, but she went and then she loved it. Uhhuh, she's seven years older than I am. Mm-hmm. And she loved it so much and she was like, you need to go to boarding school. It's amazing. And then when it was my turn to go to high school, I was like, I wanna go to boarding school.

[00:07:37] And my parents were like, no, we don't. You can stay. Because I was also like the second kid. And I was like, no, that's not fair. Like she went, I wanna go. Yeah. I didn't go to the same school, but it was a hundred percent my choice. Um, and you loved it. I, uh, uh, have very mixed feelings about my experience there.

[00:07:55] Okay. I realize now I'm still kind of like processing some of it. Sure. Socially it was not a great experience for me. It was tough. Okay. Um, but. In other ways it was wonderful. Like I loved the academics and I was such a nerd. Like I loved all the classes. Yeah. I loved my teachers. I loved, I was really into music and I, I spent like all my free time in the music building and it was such a wonderful music program and I did so much stuff.

[00:08:18] And so I was like, I was overscheduled by, you know, which was my own doing, um, and didn't get enough sleep and didn't have like a lot, like I, I did struggle socially, but, so it's like, you know, there were good things. There were not so good things. Sure. Um, and yeah, my, my daughter is like talking about wanting to go and I have such uhhuh, I'm like, oh, first of all, I'm like, I dunno if we can afford to send you, but Totally.

[00:08:39] Uh, but um, yeah, I have such mixed feelings, but she'd probably do better socially. I was, I've always been just a total introvert and kind of a hermit, so that didn't help me. Outboarding school, 

[00:08:53] Alyssa: I'm so curious about from like the. Parenting perspective. I, it's gotta be so hard, right. To like, have your kid not under your, your roof earlier than college.

[00:09:04] Right. Like that part, as a parent, I'm like, oh, I studied abroad when I was 15. I went to Austria for six months and I loved it. Yeah. And then would come home and like babysit and waitress and work at the restaurant and like save up for a plane ticket and go back to Austria. Wow. And then like come back and like, just absolutely loved it and feel like I could have really loved boarding school, to be honest.

[00:09:29] Mm-hmm. But now as a parent, I'm like, oh, I can't imagine. I'm sure as your like daughter's like, oh I want, I'm interested in it. That pull of, 

[00:09:38] yeah. 

[00:09:38] Just letting them be independent and have their own thing. And also, I wanna see you every day 'cause I love you so much. 

[00:09:44] Melinda: Yeah, yeah. No, it seems like it would be exceptionally hard, right?

[00:09:49] 'cause we are, my daughter and I are, we are really close right now. You know, who knows what will happen in the next few years. Right. Um, and she's my, you know, second kid and yeah. I'm like, I'm barely ready for my, you know, my son is going to high school next year and all I can think about is like, oh my God, four years till college.

[00:10:04] Like, that's crazy. But to have her also go like around the same time. Yeah. I just can't even fathom it would be really, really hard. Totally. I really have more empathy for my parents now. You know, like I didn't obviously know. Yeah, for sure. Now I'm like, oh yeah, I understand why you didn't really want me to go.

[00:10:21] And kudos to them for like letting me when I really wanted to. And I did love the independence aspect of boarding school. Mm-hmm. Like, it depends on the school you go to, but the one I went to, there's not a whole lot of structure unless you need it. So they're kind of like, if you're doing okay and your grades are okay, we, you know, we'll leave you alone and you can plan your time the way you want to.

[00:10:39] And that was, that was really cool. I mm-hmm. Didn't sleep enough because of it, I think. Sure. But, um, but I did love like having that freedom so much. Yeah. 

[00:10:48] Alyssa: Totally. Yeah. Give me freedom. Yeah. I love it. Uh, especially just like the way that my brain works and the way that my system works. Like I'm a human who my whole life and I see it.

[00:11:01] My daughter's 18 months old and I just see it so much in her already, and I'm like, bless it. The, like, if you tell me what to do, I will not do it. Mm. If you lead me to something and I feel like it was my choice, I'm like, all in. 

[00:11:16] Yeah. 

[00:11:17] It might even like, you tell me what to do and it might be something I really do want and I would really enjoy, but I have to get over the initial hump of I was told to do this.

[00:11:27] Yes. Before I'm ready to embrace it and I see it. My daughter's immediate reaction to everything and my son's four and a very different human, very different nervous systems. And it was, he was, he never went through this with her immediately. It's just a no first. And then sometimes she'll sit and she'll be like, yeah.

[00:11:47] Oh. But she immediately has to say no. Right, right. Yeah. No, you're Mila. Do you wanna come get a Popsicle? No. Yeah. Right, 

[00:11:56] Melinda: right. It's so interesting how I, I did notice that too with my kids. Like my son, the firstborn was much more like he's a rule follower. He kind of does. And he loves it when I do things for him, much to my dismay still when he is 14, like, I'm like, no, you do your laundry.

[00:12:10] Um, and, but my daughter's always been like the, no, I do it myself. It's, it's gotta be my idea. I have to come to it myself, like mm-hmm. Always with the no first. And it is very interesting, the different temperaments and how, I don't know how birth order really plays into it. Sure. But a little bit maybe.

[00:12:24] Sure. It's so interesting. Yeah. 

[00:12:27] Alyssa: Yeah. These humans, they're all different. Mm-hmm. They're all frigging different. So then what led you into this work and. Your two books now, how to raise Kids who aren't Assholes and Hello, cruel worlds. Got that bad boy right here. Yay. 

[00:12:45] Melinda: Uh, science 

[00:12:45] Alyssa: Back Strategies for Raising Terrific Kids in terrifying times.

[00:12:49] What led you into this space? 

[00:12:50] Melinda: So, let's see. Um. I have been a science journalist now for 20 years. And so I was back when I, I studied biology in college, um, along with music and, um, and then, and I always loved writing. And so I started out in, in like really like nerdy science writing. I was writing about genetics and immunology and molecular biology and stuff.

[00:13:15] And then I had my son and I had so many questions, right? Like, and I would go to Google and everything conflicted. And I didn't know what to trust. And so I started to wonder whether science could help me as a parent. 'cause I just, I know how to do science research and I know how to find answers to questions using science.

[00:13:33] And so I was like, maybe I can do this for parenting. And I started doing that for myself. And around the same time, I, I started writing a parenting, a science-based parenting column for Slate. Cool. Um, after I had pitched them a story about epidurals and like the science of like, how safe are they? And you know, what do we know who's like a super.

[00:13:51] You know, gnarly piece jumping into the science. And so I'd written that piece for them and they were like, would you like to do this regularly? And like, answer complicated parenting questions with science. And I was like, I would love that because for myself too. Right? Yeah, totally. So I did that for a long time, and I mean, you know, people used to say like, you should write a parenting book.

[00:14:08] You should write a parenting book. And I was like, no, no, I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna write a parenting book. Like for some reason that just felt like such a big shift from like the hard science writing. And then eventually I was like. You know, I, I realized that there were some really important issues in parenting that I felt like were worth really giving attention to.

[00:14:27] And one was like, how do, just, how do we raise really good human beings and what does the science say there? And I, it felt like a big enough question for a book and one that I wanted to dedicate time to. And so that's how my first book, how to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes came to be. It just felt like, you know, I started to see parenting as a form of activism, you know?

[00:14:46] Mm-hmm. Where we're raising kids, we're raising the next generation of humans who are gonna be the caretakers of this earth and, and be, you know, making all the decisions in terms of what happens and how people treat each other. And so I thought this is like a big important thing, and so it's important enough for me to write a whole book about.

[00:15:03] Yeah. And so I wrote that book and then I. Took a little break. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, that was hard. Um, then, and then I just realized like, I ha I wasn't done, like there were other things, and one was, this was, you know, right after the pandemic, everybody's so worried about child mental health, teen mental health.

[00:15:24] And I did get into that some in my first book, but I, I really wanted to get into it more like, what can we do as parents to raise kids who can deal with what this complicated world throws at them? And I also had been on a podcast where the interviewer had asked me, you know, it's great to raise kids who aren't assholes, but how do we raise kids who can deal with a world full of assholes?

[00:15:45] Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:46] And I was like, 

[00:15:46] yeah, that is, that is the other question. Like, how do we raise kids who can deal with difficult people, difficult situations, who, who can just, and also like not only deal with it, but like, make things better. Yeah. So I would say the second book is, is similar in some ways to the first book, and that it's still like.

[00:16:03] How can we parent in a way that's gonna like make the world a better place, but it's also focused on how do we help our kids? How do we instill in them the skills that they will need to thrive in this very complicated world? 

[00:16:14] Alyssa: I love this. I feel like we've been talking a lot like generationally lately. I maybe anxious Jen, I think sparked a lot of conversation around like, oh, how did this generation get to be who they are and where they are and how they are.

[00:16:30] Hmm. And with I think, a lot of fear in that conversation there. And we were talking about it on our seed team. We're a team of 12 and uh, we have folks ranging from early twenties to later fifties on our team and talking about what we grew up with, what we grew up experiencing, and how we then experience the world and looking at what do we want for our kids now?

[00:17:00] I think something I really love about Gen Z is that they are really human focused, like person focused, whether it's their own mental health they're talking about and aware of or looking at like diving into activism. And I think what we didn't arm Gen Z with was the skillset or tools for how to navigate the world alongside and with humans who don't necessarily think like them.

[00:17:37] And we gave them access to a digital world where they can so easily be in a bubble and it's designed for them to really be in their bubble, fighting another bubble and haven't armed them with tools for How do you. Have a conversation, IRL with somebody outside your bubble or people who don't look or think or practice the way that you do without jumping right to like, my values are the right values and their values are the wrong values.

[00:18:09] Mm-hmm. And some super jazzed about that With this, with Hello Cruel World. The chapter layout, first of all, is phenomenal. Oh, thanks. Yeah. I think you did a really, really great job with that. And really looking at like topic by topic, what does it look like to parent in a world where that that is what we're walking into.

[00:18:33] Like tech isn't going away, it's not gonna leave us. And so how do we support humans in this world in the way that it's currently designed? 

[00:18:45] Melinda: Yeah, that is what I was aiming for. And you're, I think you've done a good job. Oh, thanks. Yeah. You know, I mean, I, I agree. There's just so much. There's so much fear and anxiety, you know, felt by parents and for good reason.

[00:18:58] I feel like we're being told to be terrified. You know, Uhhuh, those are the messages we're getting. And social media doesn't help, you know, all the, yeah, I mean, I follow so many of the parenting influencer accounts and when I read them I feel so stressed out. Like I feel like, oh my God, I'm doing this wrong.

[00:19:12] I should be so scared. You know, all these things. So I really wanted to counterbalance that with a book that like acknowledges and is sort of rooted in the fact that we know that their parents are really stressed and anxious, but that's like hopeful and more solutions oriented. Like, okay, we're scared.

[00:19:26] Like what can make us feel more in control? What can we educate ourselves about how these skills develop? You know, how what? Like the little things we can do as parents to nurture them so that we feel equipped and we feel in control and we feel like we can raise kids who can handle this. And that's really what I.

[00:19:43] I wanted to do, which is kind of my own response as, as I've told you from like the story of how I became a science writer. My whole thing is like when I have something that I don't know the answer to and, and is making me worried, like I turn to science to try to find answers to help me regulate and calm down.

[00:19:57] And I was basically trying to do this on a like collective scale for this generation of parents. 

[00:20:03] Alyssa: Yeah. I love that so much. When you were diving in and writing this and now as you've been out and like sharing out the world and talking about it, what was for you? I think the maybe hardest or most surprising part as you were diving into write it and then as it's been out into the world, I, I found my first book, tiny Human Speaking Emotions, we published in 2023 and I.

[00:20:26] I had all these ideas of what I thought would really hit home for people in tiny humans. And then what's been so cool as also a research junkie is to like hear from people what actually is hitting home or what's standing out to them or, and so I'm curious for you what that has been like, both your experience of what really was challenging or surprising to you in writing it.

[00:20:52] And then as it's been out into the world, what are you hearing on repeat from people? Yeah. Okay. 

[00:21:00] Melinda: So the biggest surprise, and I'll say this is a very welcome surprise. Yeah. Um, well, let me back up and say, when I started researching the book, I, I knew what skills I wanted to cover. Um. I didn't know what I was gonna find in terms of like what types of parenting strategies would nurture each one.

[00:21:20] And I worried that some of the findings and like some of the strategies for one skill would end up like contradicting what you should do to build another skill. Like I was like, what if the things that help build resilience or the opposite of what helps build empathy, you know? 

[00:21:33] Sure. 

[00:21:34] And then what do I do if I have like one chapter saying like, don't do this, and the next chapter saying do this.

[00:21:38] Like, that's not gonna work. Yeah. And I was really scared about this happening and finding contradictions that I couldn't, you know, figure out what to do with. And I was really surprised and relieved to discover that kind of the opposite happened where there was a lot in common across many chapters.

[00:21:55] This also kind of worried me though because I was like, well there's gonna be some redundancy in this book then, because it turns out like encouraging kids to engage in like independent free play is. Wonderful for like so many skills, you know? And so I have that mentioned, but with different, citing, different research and explaining the different reasons for it in different chapters in like three or four different chapters.

[00:22:15] Yeah. So it was like incredibly reassuring. And it was like big picture stuff too, is what I was finding too. It's not. Like I, I feel like when I go on Instagram and I read what the influencers are saying about how to parent, it's very, it's so detail oriented and it's like you have to speak with this particular tone of voice and say these words and not those words.

[00:22:33] Like, never praise your kid, never do this. You know? And it's like, oh my God, you have to get it perfect. And what I found from the research was like much bigger picture stuff about like the broad ways you engage with kids, the like broad things that you encourage them to do. And, and that just felt so nice because I was like, okay, we, maybe we don't have to stress about getting every word right.

[00:22:51] Getting every tone of voice right. Getting every interaction perfect. Like, and in fact, like mistakes are actually really helpful as I found, you know, parenting mistakes can be very, very helpful for kids to see. Um, so that was great and surprising and a relief. As for your second part of the question, what keeps coming up over and over again?

[00:23:09] Resilience. How do we build resilience and how do we deal with social media and technology? Those are two areas I keep getting asked a lot about and I'm not terribly surprised. 

[00:23:18] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:18] Melinda: The other thing that people wanna talk a lot about is building self-compassion in kids. Mm-hmm. And I'm very happy that's resonating because I didn't know it was a big deal for kids.

[00:23:29] I didn't know how helpful self-compassion was for kids until I started looking into the research and then I was really bowled over by it and I made it chapter one because of that. And I'm finding a lot of people wanna talk about like, how do we build self-compassion? And I think it may be because there's a lot of very self-critical kids out there.

[00:23:45] I mean, you know, saying things like, I hate myself or like, yeah. And, and so that, that has resonated a lot. 

[00:23:50] Alyssa: Sure. Well, and I think like the self-compassion piece makes so much sense because I think a lot of us as adults are doing it too, right? Like, we're like, how do we teach the skill we don't have? Yep.

[00:24:00] And. I mean, I can tell you a million things I'm terrible at and all that, right? Like it's so easy to do that versus if you were like, Alyssa, gimme five things that you are like medium at, not even like I can tell you easily also what I'm really good at, but stuff where it's like, yeah, I'm like fine at this.

[00:24:21] Like I feel like that middle ground's harder to access. I can either tell you here's something I'm good at, or here's what I'm terrible at. And that list is lengthy and so that makes total sense to me. My husband and I, maybe six months ago or whatever, we were on a road trip home from my parents' house and we were chatting about like, what do we actually want?

[00:24:45] Because what you just said like hits home so much for me. Like we're so in the weeds about like this word, not that word, this thing, not that thing. And so much of our work. Is, I mean, my research was in building emotional intelligence in kids. And I care so much less about the words you use to talk to somebody.

[00:25:06] 'cause also that's gonna come from my cultural lens and the words that I might use in my household or within my cultural context, uh, as a white woman. And I care so much more about, do you know how your brain and body work so that you can navigate dysregulation and regulation in that cycle, in and out so that you're able to come back to things like repair.

[00:25:34] And so Zach and I were coming home from my parents and we had just gotten into like in the weeds conversations. About after me, just like watching my parents parent, my children over the time and I was like, oh my God. Drives me nuts. And my dad does X, Y, and Z. And Zach, my husband, was like, totally, it's probably so triggering and it's not gonna make or break who our kids are.

[00:25:58] And I was like, yes, thank you. Like I needed that reminder. And we outlined like, what is it that we actually care about in our day-to-day? And it hangs on our fridge. And a little piece of paper, I wrote a scrap paper from the car that I found that was just like, here are, and we ended up listing out like six things of like, here's what's actually important to us.

[00:26:19] And nowhere on there is like, did I say the right words in that interaction? 

[00:26:25] Melinda: Yeah. 

[00:26:25] Alyssa: Right. Because when we pull back to that big picture thinking, it for me is like. Right. This is what really matters to me and I'm gonna a million times drop the ball. And when I look back to my childhood and think, what is it that I really wanna do differently?

[00:26:45] It's navigating repair. I think that's something generationally that has started to really shift. 

[00:26:52] Melinda: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:54] Alyssa: That a lot of us didn't grow up with. Parents who came and were like, man, I was feeling overwhelmed earlier when we were coming in from outside and I wasn't very kind to you and I'm sorry. I'm gonna try and slow down and be kind to you next time.

[00:27:06] A lot of us didn't experience that part, and that is so healing and helpful, not having a perfect parent. Yep. 

[00:27:16] Melinda: A hundred percent. Yes. And yeah, those repair conversations can be so powerful for kids. And like sometimes they can also get into like problem solving. Like when I lose my temper and then I go talk to my kids about it sometimes they're like, well, you know, I have some ideas about what you could do to help yourself calm down in those moments.

[00:27:35] And I'm like, oh my God. Like my kid wants to talk about emotional regulation strategies with me now. Like this is fantastic. Yes. And like we'll have a whole conversation about that, which is just amazing in and of itself. So yeah, those conversations can be so wonderful, 

[00:27:48] Alyssa: so huge. When it comes to self-compassion, can you break a little bit of this down for us?

[00:27:54] What does it look like to foster self-compassion in our kids so that they have the freedom to make mistakes and not be perfect humans too? 

[00:28:03] Melinda: Yeah. So the research on self-compassion is, um. Really interesting. I mean, there's so many benefits by the way, that are correlated with, with self-compassion in both adults and in teens.

[00:28:15] It's like less anxiety, less depression, more resilience. There's weird stuff too, like people who have more self-compassion are more likely to seek medical care when they're not feeling well, they have Well, that makes sense, I guess. Yeah, it, it does, right. Yeah, no, it does make sense when you actually like sit and think about it.

[00:28:29] But yeah, I wouldn't have connected those originally. Right. They have like healthier relationships. I mean, it's, it's a lot of stuff and researchers who study self-compassion kind of break it down into three components, which, um. We can practice ourselves and also, um, help instill in our kids. And yes, as you already alluded to, like this is one of those skills where it really does help if you model it and practice it yourself as a parent if you know how to do it yourself.

[00:28:56] Because kids really look to us for, you know, how to treat themselves. Like, they're like, how does mom treat herself when she, you know, burns dinner or forgets to do something? Maybe that's how I should treat myself when I make a mistake. And so it really helps if we can practice this. Um, it's hard. I mean, it's, it's easy in the steps are actually pretty simple in like.

[00:29:14] Theory in practice, obviously it's a little harder as everything is in parenting, right? It's a hundred percent. Um, so the first step is really noticing your feelings in the moment. It's basically mindfulness. But if that word is sometimes not everybody loves that word. So it's like stepping away from the situation, from your rumination, from your obsessing over what happened or what you're feeling.

[00:29:38] And like, just saying, I'm having a hard time and here's what I'm feeling. Like I'm feeling embarrassed, I'm feeling frustrated, whatever it is. And we can do this with our kids by just like, you know, pointing out like what we're seeing and saying, you know, that even if we don't know exactly what feeling it is, like sometimes when my daughter will say something that illustrates that she's feeling some self-criticism, like, you know, she'll say like, I hate myself.

[00:30:01] I'm, I'm the worst person in the world. I'll just say, it must be really hard to feel that way right now. So it's like acknowledging their feeling without necessarily acknowledging that their thought is accurate. Right? So it's not like I'm saying, yeah, you are the worst person in the world. Yes, you feel this way, and that sounds really hard.

[00:30:17] And you know, sort of just like letting them recognize like they're having a hard time. The second part is helping them or yourself recognize the shared human experience of what you're going through, which is to say you're not alone in having experienced something hard like this. Other people have been through this.

[00:30:36] With kids, tone of voice does matter here because you can imagine if you say something like, well, it's not a big deal, you know, everybody makes mistakes, everybody screws up. Why are you so upset? Like, that can feel dismissive and we don't wanna dismiss their feelings. So it's more like, yeah, you know, this sounds really hard, and anybody in your situation I think would feel the same way.

[00:30:54] Or you could share like when you've been through something similar and that you've felt that, and you know how hard it is to feel that way. It's just helping your kid recognize like they are not the only person in the world who feels this way or has felt this way. And that can do a lot to, to help. I mean, I, that is part, that is the part of self-compassion that for me is often the thing that helps the most is like, same, I'll make a mistake.

[00:31:17] And I'm like, I know a million other parents have made the same mistake today. Like, this is not just me. I'm, I'm, I'm not just like a uniquely terrible parent. Like, we all do this. So that's the second part. Recognizing the shared human experience. And then the third part is probably what most people think of when they think of self-compassion, which is treating yourself kindly, um, treating yourself like you would a friend.

[00:31:38] So that's often how I frame it with my kids, is if they're saying like, I'm the worst person in the world because they, you know, missed something on their math homework or whatever it is, it's saying, okay, well, so if your best friend had done this, what would you say to them? Like, how would you, how would you respond to them?

[00:31:53] Is that what you would say to them? And it's also about like, giving yourself the opportunity or letting yourself do whatever you need to make yourself feel better. So sometimes when I make a mistake, 'cause self-compassion, I think is most helpful when you're feeling like you've messed up in a way that you feel terrible, you're beating yourself up about, 

[00:32:15] mm-hmm.

[00:32:16] Sometimes when I make a mistake, I think, well, I don't even deserve to make myself feel better. I deserve to feel like shit because I just did this stupid thing and I'm terrible and I, you know, and, and this part of it is like, no, you did make a mistake. Everybody makes mistakes. You feel terrible. You still deserve to do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel better.

[00:32:36] You know, if that's like taking a rest and watching TV for half an hour, like it's letting yourself take care of yourself no matter the reason for why you're feeling terrible. So that's really what the third part is about, just treating yourself kindly and giving yourself what you need in that moment.

[00:32:52] Alyssa: This framework is so helpful because it does really feel like, okay, I can do this. This is achievable. And that third one, it feels to me like a ramification or an outcome of punishment that so many of us grew up in a space where we. We're meant to feel so bad about something when we did something wrong that we wouldn't do it again, right?

[00:33:18] Like that was the goal. It came from the space of like, oh, if you get punished for this and it feels so bad for you, then you won't do it again. 

[00:33:28] Melinda: Right? 

[00:33:28] Alyssa: And so then we carry that over into ourselves, right? Where we do something wrong and it's that self punishment. And, and then we see it. Now we do a lot of work in school systems to work with a lot of teachers and, and with the system as a whole.

[00:33:44] And there is this resistance to a, a kid who's having a hard time and is in a dysregulated state, makes a mistake or does something wrong, especially if it appears as though they're regulated. Like if it's in the form of defiance or on.

[00:34:03] There's a resistance to connecting with that child from a lot of teachers and parents. I think as a trickle down from, we didn't receive that and it, so it's like, no, I, you need to feel bad about what you did so that you don't do it again, and that there's this kind of unspoken amount of time that you should feel bad about what you did.

[00:34:28] But what happens is that kids don't feel bad about what they did. They feel bad about themselves. They feel bad about who they are. They aren't like, I made a mistake, I did something bad. What they end up saying to us is, I'm bad. Yeah. And so that third part really feels like carry over there. For those of us that grew up in like punishment cultures where we were made to feel bad about behaviors when we made a mistake.

[00:34:58] The idea of doing something to not feel bad feels like we're going against that punishment culture that like, no, I made a mistake and I need to feel bad for a while. Right. As a result of that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, that's what came up for me with that one. And yeah. Curious, curious to hear your thoughts on that.

[00:35:17] Melinda: Yeah. No, I think that's a really, yeah, really thoughtful insight. I had not thought of it that way, but I agree. And I, I think it's like that's, you know, when guilt like crosses over into shame, right? Yes. It's just not helpful at all. Mm-hmm. And so you can still feel a sense of like, yes, I did make a mistake.

[00:35:33] I'm not perfect. Like, you still feel that sense of like, okay, I, I, I did screw up. It's not So I think. Sometimes self-compassion is thought of as like self-indulgence, as like never holding yourself accountable and saying like, nothing matters. I can do whatever I want, who cares? But that's not what it is.

[00:35:47] You can still say, yes, I wish that hadn't happened. I wish I hadn't done that. I, I messed up. And then also, you know, still love yourself and say, but it's okay. And I, you know, I've learned from this probably, and I mean, I, I, I do not deserve to make myself feel like I'm a terrible person and I deserve to be tortured for this.

[00:36:04] I, I can move on now. Yeah. It's like moving past it, it's like, okay, it's letting yourself off the hook. It's letting yourself off the hook. But also like, you know, recognizing that yes, it was maybe a mistake that I don't hope to make again. So it's like you can do both. Right. And I think, yeah, you 

[00:36:20] Alyssa: can do that with accountability.

[00:36:22] Yes, you can. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that. At one point was like. Knee deep in postpartum depression. And my best friend came over and I was getting changed and I went to put an outfit on that didn't fit. And I'm standing in the room and she's in there with me and I was just saying, mean things about my body to myself, right?

[00:36:45] And she first said like, God, it's so hard to be postpartum and be in a body that just feels so foreign that like grew a human and is no longer growing that human, but just grew a human and just like connected over that feeling first. And then she was like, and you're not being very kind to my friend.

[00:37:14] And I was like, yeah, okay. Yeah. And that for me was the like kind of in the moment reminder of. What would I say to her? Right? Like if this was her, what would I say to her? How would I view her that she's right now looking at her friend? Yep. And if I was looking at my friend and not myself, what would my thought process be?

[00:37:40] Melinda: Yeah. I find that so helpful. Yeah. When I am struggling with, you know, something and it helps in like all sorts of situations, like social anxiety is something I struggle with and I will like latch onto one thing I said in an evening or something and think like, that's all anybody remembers. That's everybody's judging me for this one silly thing I said.

[00:38:03] But then I think, okay, well what if this had been. What if, and I do, I take myself out and I say, okay, what if this was my friend Tracy and that, you know, I, I would not be doing that at all. I would not be like obsessing over that one thing she said. That was a little weird. I would be thinking of like the whole evening and how nice it was and how much fun we had.

[00:38:18] And that practice of like pulling yourself out and saying, what if this was my best friend? You know, what would I think? What would I, how would I treat them? I find that so, so helpful. 

[00:38:28] Alyssa: So helpful. And with parenting too, of like, man, I can tell you the ways I dropped the ball every day in parenting. Yeah.

[00:38:35] And to then be like, I wonder what my child's recall of today is, and there are times where I can ask my 4-year-old like, yeah, tell me about what happened today. Like, let's go over and never do the things that like I'm ruminating on come up. Right? Yeah. Like for him, his recall the day. It's not those little moments I've dropped the ball and.

[00:39:01] I think a repair is so helpful there. And B, recognizing that it's not one instance that makes or breaks a scenario. It's one instance happening on repeat without repair accountability that really does this dirty. Yep. That's such 

[00:39:20] Melinda: a good reminder. 

[00:39:22] Alyssa: I need it for myself. Like plastered everywhere, right? Like yeah, this one thing, like my husband said like, yeah, no, it sucks to watch that happen and it's not gonna make or break our kids.

[00:39:33] No, it's not. I know. And it feels in the moment like it is and it's an not. Totally. Yeah, because my experience of it as a kid was on repeat. Right. But like when we're visiting my parents and it's, yeah, this thing happens a couple times and it's actually not a giant deal when it happens a couple times and they're not your parents and you do have another space to turn into and process stuff.

[00:39:56] Yeah, man, that's so, so easy to get sucked into the minutiae and I love that this book pulls you out and into that bigger picture of like, what are we really trying to do here and how do we navigate that for the self-compassion stuff? I'm assuming Kristen Neff heavily informed Yes. That that work. Yes, I 

[00:40:17] Melinda: spoke.

[00:40:17] Yep. She's quoted in there. I spoke with her, I read her book. Yeah. Sweet. Yeah, she's wonderful. Is there 

[00:40:22] Alyssa: anybody else that you found or any other spaces or resources within the self-compassion world? I feel like she's got a real monopoly on self-compassion in a way that's been super helpful for, but but also are there other spaces outside of that or resources you found?

[00:40:37] Melinda: Yes. So I, I did also talk with researchers and therapists who work specifically with kids on self-compassion. Cool. Yeah. Uh, so I'm trying to make sure I remember names here. Um, Wendy O'Leary is one woman who she's written a children's book about self-compassion. That's wonderful. So, and I can't remember the name of it right now.

[00:40:56] Oh, that's 

[00:40:56] Alyssa: fine. I'll find it. So at the end of every episode, Rachel, who's my co-author of my next book, big Kids, bigger Feelings, uh, she listens to the raw audio of this. Okay. Okay. And then she and I chat about it. We do a little breakdown at the end of like. Just chatting about it in real life and we can mention anything that you forget, we can always pull in there.

[00:41:17] Okay, no worries. Good, good. Um, 

[00:41:19] Melinda: one other name is, um, Jamie Lynn Teter and she has also, I think, just written a workbook for parents and kids to work on together, the quest for self-compassion. She's also lovely and I think she might have other resources. Both of them might have like resources on their website.

[00:41:35] I'm, I'm not a hundred percent sure on that. Cool. There 

[00:41:37] Alyssa: might be. Cool. Well, I think it's so huge, the self-compassion piece is when we're looking at, you know, this rise in anxiety. Just imagine a world of, like a kid, instead of navigating an anxiety spiral is able to have self-compassion and just the break in the cycle that that creates.

[00:41:56] Melinda: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It is so powerful. It really is, and I see it helping my daughter who is definitely. Know, sometimes trends towards self-criticism and anxiety and just like judgment. She's also a little socially anxious. And so yeah, these strategies are so helpful. 

[00:42:13] Alyssa: Yeah, that's rad. And then I just wanna touch on the digital world piece real quick.

[00:42:18] 'cause it's so hot, especially in this H group. And as we said, like it's not like tech's going anywhere. Um, it's really just surrounding us more and more. And I, I feel like I fall on the optimistic side of tech where I'm like, wow, look at all the cool ways we can harness this and utilize it. And I also think if we're.

[00:42:44] Turning to kids and just telling them not to use it, or we're essentially talking smack about the world they're growing up in. It's not a rad way to connect with them, you know? Yeah. Or even prepare them for the world or support them in navigating the world they're living in. And that's what I feel like with the resistance to tech, and I see this also with our Gen Zers, like as we're like, well, you have to, you're using social, you're doing X, Y, and Z, and it's almost like a blame on them of using the tech they've grown up with.

[00:43:16] Yeah. I don't see it as a helpful strategy. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what it looks like to navigate the tech world for teens. Yeah. So 

[00:43:27] Melinda: I am definitely, I agree with you. Um, I think, you know, I think about preparing our kids more than trying to protect them. Absolutely. Because as you say, technology's here to stay, and if.

[00:43:41] If our approach is like, well, we'll just. Not let our kids ever use it at home until they leave home or whatever. Or we, you know, just, we don't talk to them and instead we monitor where they're going and what they're doing that's gonna backfire. Like, 'cause then they're gonna turn 18 and they're gonna have unfettered access to screens and not have any skills in place.

[00:44:00] Like, they're not gonna have learned over the course of their childhood, like how to engage with screens and tech in a healthy way and what they need and how much rest they need and all these things. So I see it as obviously we don't want to be getting, you know, when kids turn five, like giving them access to everything.

[00:44:15] That is also not my recommendation, but what the research supports is like slowly introducing kids. To technology, but most importantly, and you can have rules and have structure, and I am highly in support of that. But it works best in the context of a lot of conversations with our kids. Mm. And that's a two-way conversation, not just like lecturing our kids on, here's why I don't want you using TikTok.

[00:44:38] It's like, have a two-way conversation about, you know, what are your kids doing online? What do they like? What's interesting to them? Why do they enjoy what they're doing? You know, why? Why do they want more time on TikTok? Like really trying to understand the world they're growing up in. 'cause it is so different from ours.

[00:44:55] Listening, giving them, I mean, to circle back to what we were saying in the beginning, making sure we give them some autonomy and agency here and respect. Like if we just say, here are the rules. I don't wanna hear what you have to say about them. You're never getting. You know, you're never gonna get Instagram, you're never gonna get TikTok.

[00:45:11] You can't do this, you can't do that. Kids are gonna rebel, especially teenagers. Mm-hmm. And tweens. They don't like to hear that. They like to be heard. They like to have some agency. They like to be respected. And so what the research really suggests is that, yes, it's great to, to set some structure, but you wanna be fluid with it.

[00:45:28] Listen, you know, be willing to negotiate a little with your kids because then they're more willing to listen to you. Then you're helping them understand through your conversations, like what your concerns may be, and you're helping them sort of learn their own limits. So I just did an event with Chinos.

[00:45:45] It was one of my book launch events, and it was so cool because they actually invited a panel of teens to join me on stage. Cool. And they asked these teens questions, you know, they asked me questions, they asked the teens questions, and, and one of the, one of the teens said, you know, from a young age, my mom would just ask me these open-ended questions like.

[00:46:04] How do you, how do you feel when you spend that much time on your phone every day? Like, what does it feel like? You know, does it feel good? Like, is it hard sometimes to when you turn off your screen, do you know? What are you feeling? And he said, like, those questions in the moment, you know, he's like, as a teenager, I wasn't like, yes mom, I feel a little unhappy when I scroll on Instagram, so I'm going to delete Instagram.

[00:46:25] Like, he's like, there was no immediate, I am going to act like a perfect adult now. But he said, over time I started to ask myself these questions and notice patterns and recognize that, you know, if I did spend more, more than a certain amount of time scrolling on Instagram, I felt a certain way. And then this helped me set my own limits and sort of recognize, you know, what I needed.

[00:46:45] And so that, I mean, just, it's like having that two-way street, asking questions, like helping your kid be curious about what they're feeling, what they're experiencing, what they're doing. Those things over time can really be powerful as well. 

[00:47:00] Alyssa: I love that so much. I love that they invited teens up onto that panel too.

[00:47:05] And that what it requires for us as the adults to like ask those questions and not just have the answer. I think a, we have to see, uh, respect for our kids as humans that like, oh, they might have value to add here and that we aren't the ones with just all the answers and all the information. Mm-hmm. Yep.

[00:47:25] And it also, and this from my, like, so much of the work that we do is marrying emotional regulation with sensory regulation and looking at how these two work together. And so from the like nerdy neuroscience side of me is like, oh, the attunement to oneself there and that skillset that's being built. And that takes a little while.

[00:47:49] It's much easier to have a quick no to be like, no, I can't let you do this, or I won't let you do this. It's, uh. Milestone to build the skillset of tuning into your own body and saying, oh man, how does it feel when I do X, Y, and Z? When I am hanging out with these people, or when I eat these foods, when I drink this liquid of any kind, when I am on social, when I just to be able to tune into how do I feel after that is a skillset.

[00:48:19] A lot of us as adults have not cultivated, and it's a milestone we're working toward. We call them mini stones to milestones. And so when we're looking at like those mini stones of, oh, are they starting to build that skill of attunement, it takes a little while to get there and there's trust in that parent asking the question of like, yeah, how does it feel?

[00:48:42] As the kid said, it's not like I, that day was like, you're right, this doesn't feel great. I'm gonna delete Instagram. But then over time gets to monitor their own Instagram limits and pay attention to it. It plants that seed of like, how does this feel? And that's a way cooler skill in my mind to foster then let me look outside myself to turn to somebody else for a limit.

[00:49:08] Right. Right. 

[00:49:10] Melinda: And I think it is really helpful for the kids to get their on their own. I mean, as. If you just tell your kids screens are bad, they're gonna do this to you. You know, your kid is gonna push back, be like, I'm like, great. I 

[00:49:21] Alyssa: can't wait to pull out my screen. Yeah, 

[00:49:24] Melinda: yeah. Like, no, I reject that. It's fine.

[00:49:26] Like, but if you let them kind of discover on their own, oh, you know, it turns out like maybe I do feel kind of like not so great after I've been passively scrolling through Instagram for three hours. Like if they get to it themselves, it is so much more powerful and And they get there easier than if you try to just push it on them and tell them, this is how you need to feel, this is what you need to believe.

[00:49:46] Like they're just gonna Totally, they're gonna reject that. 

[00:49:49] Alyssa: Yeah. And I think we can start this so much younger than we often talk about. I mean, just the other day, man, we had like 

[00:49:56] a 

[00:49:56] day in our household. My kids are a sensory mismatch. My oldest is sensory sensitive. My youngest is a sensory seeker. And so he is overwhelmed by her existence in the world basically.

[00:50:08] And. It was just a day and we got to the end of the day and my husband was giving my daughter a bath, and I was hanging out with my son and I was like, you know what, buddy? I don't really know what to do next. Today. Felt really hard and exhausting. I felt like we were all kind of yelling at each other a lot and annoyed with each other, and we're gonna live in this family and in this household together.

[00:50:39] And he goes forever. He's like, for a long time. Yeah, we're gonna live here together for a long time and it's not always gonna be fun and enjoyable and I'd love to figure out some ways where we can make it a little bit easier sometimes. And. I was like, if you have any thoughts or any ideas of things, when you're feeling overwhelmed, when you need a break and Mila just wants to play and connect with you that we could do differently, I was like, she loves you and all she wants is to connect and play with you.

[00:51:21] And when she feels like she's not connected with you, her body looks to connect with you even more. So she's in your face and she's saying hi and asking for a high five and bringing something over to you, and then eventually she hits you or she grabs your face or she pulls your hair or she bites you because she's still trying to figure out, how do I play with you or how do I connect with you?

[00:51:42] And I was like, if you have any ideas, I'm here. And I was like, but this is what I'm thinking about tonight. And essentially just shared that thought process. We didn't like have a grand convo where we solved all of our family problems. But the next morning when we started the day, it was the most connected morning.

[00:52:05] The two of them have had in a while. Wow. And I was just like, and it didn't last all day, you know, it ebbed and flowed and whatever. But I was like, I didn't have to teach him anything. I just had to share, here's what I'm seeing and I don't have the answers, and let's figure this out together. And he was like, okay.

[00:52:27] Let me see what I can do basically. And yeah, 

[00:52:29] Melinda: you're giving him agency there and you're, this is, I sometimes call this collaborative problem solving. I know that that, right? 

[00:52:36] Yeah. 

[00:52:36] And I'm such a proponent of it, and I think it's such a beautiful method. 'cause you're like coming at a neutral time, like not in the middle of like a fight or whatever.

[00:52:43] Yes. Everybody's calm. You're like, I'm noticing that this is happening. And I was wondering if you have any thoughts about what we could do about it. And it's like you're putting them in the driver's seat. You're not yelling at them, you're not accusing them of anything. You're just like, I've observed this and I'm wondering if you have thoughts on how we can make this better and it works so well.

[00:53:01] And so, I mean, for so many things when I've done it with my kids, like, and sometimes they really come out with things I didn't expect. And they're like, well if, yeah, like this is the thing that's hard for me and if you would maybe do this, it would be a lot better. And then like that kind of solves it sometimes.

[00:53:13] Yeah. I mean, not always. Um, yeah, I just love that approach. It's, it's, oh, it's a beautiful approach and it really, it's so helpful and it's like. Getting at a lot of what we've talked about today about, you know, it's like you're giving your, your kids a say, you're respecting what their opinion is. You really wanna hear what they think will make it better, what might solve the problem.

[00:53:33] And you're doing it in a calm way. I mean, it's just, it's such a great approach 

[00:53:36] Alyssa: and just not having the answer all the time. Yes. Right. That like. Man, I think it's so helpful for kids to see so that they don't feel like they should have the answers all the time. Yes. I remember I said to my mom at one point, I was like, early motherhood, and I was like, wait, I thought I would like hit motherhood and just know all these things that you've always known.

[00:53:55] Like when do I get that of like. How do I get this stay now or how do I, whatever, like all the things I've always turned to my mom for and I was like, this doesn't just come, but you've always had all the answers. And she was like, oh, I don't have all the answers. It just looks like that. But like unbeknownst to 

[00:54:10] Melinda: me, no, and what you're getting at too is something I talk about in my book.

[00:54:15] So modeling uncertainty, like modeling a comfort with uncertainty. Yes. Like saying I don't have the answer all the time. I don't, and, and I can change my mind about things with more information. Like, that is so powerful too for if we wanna raise kids, add a grant up in here. Yeah. If we wanna raise like, open-minded kids, kids who, you know, aren't gonna have like super extreme views that they stick to and won't be, you know, open to changing.

[00:54:37] Like this is so helpful for, for fostering that in kids. Like, just be comfortable with uncertainty, say to your kids, I dunno the answer to that question. Let's figure it out together. And then you can also like model how you. Do Google searches, you know, you can say, let's research this together. Totally.

[00:54:51] Like there's so many great things about saying to your kids, I don't know. Or I, I'm not sure, or I have mixed feelings about this. I haven't come to a, you know, I don't have a strong opinion yet because I'm not sure I've done enough research to know, like, that is a beautiful thing to, to say to kids. 'cause they're like, oh, I don't have to have a strong opinion about everything.

[00:55:09] Um, yes, which is what social media tells you is that you should have a strong opinion immediately about things, all the time, all the things, and then you can't waver from it. Right. Right? Yes. I forget what, so I, yeah, it was a polarization researcher, Eric Torres, who's at Harvard, and he said, we equate like changing our mind with moral badness, uhhuh in our culture, and we need to stop doing that.

[00:55:31] And yes. Yep. Yep. 

[00:55:33] Alyssa: Oh, I love that. Thank you for writing both of these books, Melinda. We've got how to raise kids who aren't assholes obsessed and Hello, cruel world science-based strategies for raising terrific kids in terrifying times. Thank you for this gift. You've given us all as parents. Oh, you're welcome.

[00:55:53] And thank you for those lovely words. Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown,

[00:56:06] Rachel: so I have a pap smear today. Oh, sick. I just have like a full physical, but I'm due for a pap. 

[00:56:12] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:56:12] Rachel: How often do we have to do this? These are three or five years. Okay. 

[00:56:18] Alyssa: Great. 

[00:56:19] Rachel: Last time though, I had like something called ascus, which is like abnormal cells of unknown origin or something like that. I dunno.

[00:56:26] That can happen for like anything. 

[00:56:27] Alyssa: Probably very regulating and calming for you. 

[00:56:30] Rachel: Well, what was interesting was that like the practice was in the process of like changing their online system. So I just like never heard from them. And I was like, that's weird. So like a few months later I was like, Hey, I'm just like calling to make sure that everything was chill.

[00:56:44] And she was like, yeah, actually. Um, actually I was like, okay, I'm a cancer survivor, so it's cut to the chase here, ma'am. Um, yeah, so, and like I don't feel like anxiety about that today, but I do just feel like, I don't feel like taking my pants off and being looked at, 

[00:57:03] Alyssa: you know what I mean? A hundred percent too much.

[00:57:05] Taking our pants off and being looked at. I just 

[00:57:07] Rachel: honestly, like with the childbirth and everything, it's just like I've had so many hands and eyes up in that area. Like I just, like, I don't want to. 

[00:57:18] Alyssa: Hands and eyes. Mila right now is into trying to wipe me when I'm like, toilet. That's nice. I'm like, stop it.

[00:57:26] And like my body goes into full panic mode where I'm like, yeah, yeah. Don't do it away from me. A, I didn't want you in here in the first place. BI definitely don't want this. 

[00:57:33] Rachel: You trying to wipe me like get out 

[00:57:35] Alyssa: here. No. Mm-hmm. But she's 

[00:57:36] Rachel: probably like, well, you wipe me. So 

[00:57:38] Alyssa: yeah. She was like, that's exactly it.

[00:57:40] She's like, this is what we do. 

[00:57:41] Rachel: Right? And you're like, no, it's not. 

[00:57:44] Alyssa: No, this works my girl. 

[00:57:47] Rachel: Uh, yeah. I just don't wanna do it. I just like the whole like, here's a drape. I'll come back in a minute. I just hate it all. Like no. Yeah. 

[00:57:57] Alyssa: Unless I'm laying on a massage table. No, thank you. 

[00:57:59] Rachel: Same. And like, aren't we at a place scientifically where like, can't I just like stick a swab up there myself and hand it to you or something?

[00:58:06] Yes, send 

[00:58:06] Alyssa: a hundred percent. But it's women's health. I know. It's so, I know 

[00:58:09] Rachel: nobody cares about a cervix. 

[00:58:11] Alyssa: Nobody cares about a cervix. Uh, although Parallel Health, which I'm super stoked about, they 

[00:58:17] Rachel: do care about cervix, 

[00:58:18] Alyssa: they care about cervixes, and I love this brand. I actually, we reached out to them, we're like, can we partner for the LA event, uh, for my book tour stop?

[00:58:29] Because they're, I love their brand, their commitment to not just products for us that no one ever cared about us to have, like products for perimenopause and things like that, but also the commitment to research and funding women's health 

[00:58:47] Rachel: Yeah. For equity is 

[00:58:48] Alyssa: remarkable. Yes. And they are like fierce advocates for it.

[00:58:52] And I had the privilege of getting to know their CEO and that is what she's spending most of her time on, is like, how do we advocate for women's health research? And I'm like, yes, thank you. Yeah, thank you. That there are people in the world who are. Dedicating their lives to that because this pap smear should just be a swab you could do.

[00:59:18] Rachel: That's how I feel like somebody please do this an at-home pap smear, please. I don't wanna get into stirrups ever again. Ever again.

[00:59:32] Alyssa: Uh, yeah. That's real. That is real. Actually, when I reached out to parallel, they had just started their perimenopause line. I was like, you know, who's got big kids with bigger feelings? Folks in perimenopause? 

[00:59:44] Rachel: It's so ridiculous. Like, what is this design where like my kids gonna be going through puberty while I'm going through perimenopause, or basically going through puberty and reverse puberty together, reverse puberty.

[00:59:57] The emotions are. And like she's just barely, and I don't even feel like I'm in perimenopause yet. And she's like, just on the cusp of puberty. Yeah. But like I know we've got some heated ass years between us coming up. Like I just can feel it. Totally. 

[01:00:12] Alyssa: Yeah. And you both have some fire to you, so it's could be really fun.

[01:00:16] Rachel: And I'm also like, I'm her emotional point person, which means I also am going to be the person who she brings her like very hormonal. Correct. Yeah. Emotions to. So I'm just like, woo. Buckle up baby. We're both gonna be hormonal monsters. Woo.

[01:00:33] Alyssa: Oh my gosh. Uh, who are we chatting about today? 

[01:00:36] Rachel: Okay, this is Melinda. 

[01:00:38] Alyssa: Oh yes. Love her. Hello. Cruel world. Yes. Yeah, she's great. I think it may have been Vanessa, actually, Kroll Bennett, who introduced me to her. She was like, you're gonna love this gal. And she wasn't wrong. I do, I dig her. 

[01:00:51] Rachel: I dig her too. I love her focus on research, obviously.

[01:00:55] Um 

[01:00:56] Alyssa: mm-hmm. Yeah. She's a giant nerd, which I love. 

[01:00:58] Rachel: Same. I love it so much. I love making parenting decisions based on research. That's my, that's my jam. 

[01:01:06] Alyssa: What a wild world we live in. That that might be controversial. Uh, ILOL Wild. Oh yeah. I also love that. And having been on the backend process of doing research Mm.

[01:01:24] And navigating the IRB and just all the BS of the stuff Yeah. That I'm like. It feels like bs. And it's so much red tape and I'm so glad we have it Uhhuh. In fact, one of my pet peeves is when someone's like, oh yeah, we researched X, Y, and Z for this. And they mean like they put out surveys or did a poll and like, that's not you.

[01:01:45] No. Nope. And so I have so much respect for the world of research, having seen the backend, and I think one thing that feels really hard in today's political climate is the lack of understanding of what goes into the process to even do research or how to interpret that research. Correct? Mm-hmm. 

[01:02:11] Rachel: Yeah. The other thing that I struggle with is like, if you are only looking at research that like supports what you're trying to, like, that's just confirmation bias.

[01:02:22] I feel like we're in this time period where people are like, Hey, here's what the research says, but it's only like, it's just like cherry picked. 

[01:02:29] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Exactly. 

[01:02:31] Rachel: I can't. And 

[01:02:31] Alyssa: they're just finding can't what they wanna find, 

[01:02:34] Rachel: right? Like you just looked for research to support whatever you're 

[01:02:37] Alyssa: trying to get across and it was like a study that followed three kids or whatever.

[01:02:40] I'm like, yeah, that's, we need a larger sample size. Right? I recently met this journalist who, what did she call it? Solutions focused journalism where their goal is not to just be like, everything sucks. And instead to like look at like, yeah, these are the pain points or the challenges, or these are the systemic barriers or whatever, and what would it look like to move forward?

[01:03:07] What does progress look like? What does doing work to Fidelity look like? Like all that jazz and finding solutions. And I met her because Vermont is leading the nation in the childcare space that we passed a really monumental bill that carved out sustainable funding for childcare in a way that doesn't exist anywhere else in the country and reaches more families than any other state in the country in a sustainable manner.

[01:03:36] And the only other state that's doing things similar is New Mexico, uh, and we're just like farther along in the process than they are. And so she was here in Vermont, she's kind of studying and learning what is it that we're doing, how did we do it? How did we get this done in a bipartisan manner? And what can maybe other states learn from this knowing that every state is different with its population and.

[01:04:06] But when I think about Melinda's books, both How to Raise Kids who Aren't Assholes and Hello Cruel World, they feel like solution focused or solution space journalism where it is not just like doom and gloom, it's also the, yeah, here's what we can do. Yeah. Here's the strategies for raising these terrific kids in terrifying times and not just like The World's on Fire.

[01:04:37] Good luck. 

[01:04:39] Rachel: Yeah. Which it does feel like that so much in parenting. Yeah. Particularly right now where like every news story is really dark, it feels like. 

[01:04:52] Alyssa: And I think we have seen, I mean, we've seen books like Anxious Jen, which. I think there's a lot of good that's in there and a lot that needs to be talked about and addressed.

[01:05:02] And there some solutions. Like you look at New York state's like policy where every school now in New York State has to have a policy for phones. 

[01:05:09] Melinda: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:09] Alyssa: To have a phone free school. And the school itself gets to create the, their own policy, but they have to have one in place and like that's cool, right?

[01:05:18] Like I don't hate that. I do think we're missing the mark on a lot of it of like what purpose is the phone serving and how do we really make sure those needs are met? Is this a connection need? Is this a safety need? Is this an anxiety need? How, like how are we actually meeting the need instead of just taking away the coping mechanism?

[01:05:39] But I think some good has like come from that. And also most of the humans I've talked to who have read it ultimately feel more anxious and stressed. And I feel like I left Melinda's book feeling Hopeful. 

[01:05:53] Rachel: This one is hard for me. Tech is hard for me because I, I mean, Nora's 10, so we're still at an age where she doesn't have a phone.

[01:06:04] Um, I feel confident in not allowing her to be on social media right now. Yeah. But thinking about when, you know, she's a later teen, I don't want it to be that, like I've sheltered her, sheltered her, sheltered her. 'cause we've talked about like, she can get a smartphone when she's 16 and she'll probably get a flip phone before that at some point.

[01:06:27] Just 'cause we'll be separated and logistically like her to contact me, whatever. What I don't want to happen is like, she gets a smartphone at 16 and has no idea how to be safe on it. How to set boundaries. Yeah. How to recognize how it makes her feel when she's using certain apps. And so there's this push pull for me of like, I do want to.

[01:06:52] Keep her off of social media for a long time, not just because of the research in anxious Jen. A lot more just my own experience of social media and how like addictive it is and how most times I come off social media and I'm like, I feel good, right? Like I come off social media and I'm like, Ugh, I'm drained.

[01:07:11] It's depressing and I don't want her to experience that. But I also, and this was touched on in this episode, like you can't go from zero to a hundred with these kids of like, you can have no access and now you're 18 and you have all the access in the world and no skills for how to navigate it. 

[01:07:29] Alyssa: I agree.

[01:07:30] And that makes me think of Ash's work and power on, I'm like, we have to give them the skills to navigate it. Yes. Uh, and yeah, I just feel like we're in a time now where there's a lot of anxiety parent-wise and just like polarization of like, do this, don't do this. Mm-hmm. And Melinda's, her first chapters on how to foster self-compassion.

[01:07:51] Like what an incredible way to start the book. Right? That self-compassion and our, our ability to foster that in kids then allows them to take risks, make mistakes, come back to us, love who they are, have intrinsic motivation, like it's so key for so much else. And I'm like, that's not covered in a lot of spaces.

[01:08:11] Mm-hmm. How to foster self-compassion and give yourself grace and the key to really, I think, loving who you are, which is key to not living day to day with anxiety. 

[01:08:27] Rachel: Totally. And I think when kids do love who they are and feel like they have intrinsic value, that makes them safer when they are then navigating things that happen on the internet.

[01:08:39] Alyssa: A hundred percent. Actually, this came up in a conversation with my niece. She is. 13 and we were chatting and she had said, somebody had like made a comment about her and I was like, oh man, that sucks. Like, how you doing? She was like, oh, I'm fine. That's not real. And I was like, what do you mean that's not real?

[01:09:00] She was like, it, it was, it was about her athleticism. She was like, I'm the best athlete in like my group. Mm-hmm. I know that. And I was like, red, like she's confident in who she is. And so that comment couldn't take her down. 

[01:09:16] Rachel: Yeah. 

[01:09:17] Alyssa: And I was like, I love this, that like, she was so firmly in her space of like, here's who I am, here's what I am bringing to the table.

[01:09:26] And I said to her, I was like, oh, that makes sense. Like there are things that if somebody said them about me or to me wouldn't hurt my feelings because I don't believe it to be true about myself. And I was like, honestly, there are also things that. I have a hard time loving about myself or where I don't feel like I'm doing a good enough job.

[01:09:45] And if people made comments about those, it would really hurt my feelings. And she like sat with it for a little bit and she was like, yeah, I don't know what those would be for me. And I was like, so cool. That's great. Oh man, jealous. So jealous. Yeah. And I'm sure there will be things, right? There'll be things that could hurt her, feelings that she doesn't feel confident about, that she'll discover.

[01:10:10] We can navigate those. But I was like, she has, and they have grown up in a household where self-compassion was very much fostered. 

[01:10:18] Melinda: Mm-hmm. 

[01:10:18] Alyssa: Where they get to make mistakes, they get to drop the ball. Connection is the focus. Uh, and so there's so much opportunity then for rupture and repair and taking risk and failing and coming back.

[01:10:34] Mm-hmm. Because, you know, ultimately like. You are loved and lovable and worthy, and none of that is up for debate. Like so cool to foster that. 

[01:10:45] Rachel: Yeah, and I think there is this pull to wanna shelter our kids from anything hard or any type of adversity. And so it can sometimes feel easiest to be like, yeah, no, you're not having a phone and you're not using these apps because I can't monitor every, you know, thing that's going on on there.

[01:11:08] And I do think that it's smart to have boundaries around tech, but I also think that there has to be a balance of. Instead of trying to remove this thing that we're perceiving as being like dangerous or risky or whatever, it's like building that foundation of security in self security in I'm part of this family that loves me and supports me, and like those things are not contingent on what happens out in the world or on the internet.

[01:11:39] And for kids to know that because inevitably they are going to be on social media, they are going to be going out into the world and experiencing adversity that we don't have control over. 

[01:11:50] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. And I hate that same also as you and I were talking about, like sometimes I hate that for them, but sometimes I hate that from me, where when my kids are exposed to.

[01:12:03] Challenging behaviors or things that are going to push up against our values, and we then have to navigate those things at home. It just makes my life harder where I'm like, I don't wanna have to do this. It's exhausting. Totally. And it's exhausting. Do this. Uh, and so I hate it. I hate that. Like that's a part of this, and it is a part of this, 

[01:12:22] Rachel: right?

[01:12:23] Yeah. I, we have been navigating this on and off since Abel's been in school and with Nora to a lesser degree, but Abel is sensitive in ways that Nora isn't. And so it seems to come up more with him and it's like so many conversations about, because ultimately the reason that he's struggling with his, this particular peer is because this child lives in like a power over dynamic at home.

[01:12:52] And so. Now Abel's peer is seeking power in their relationship and it's coming out as like rude and mean behaviors and exclusion and all these things and trying to explain and help able, like have self-advocacy, know when to have boundaries around it, but also to know that like at the root, your peer is also a good person.

[01:13:16] Mm-hmm. Who these patterns of behavior are because he feels powerless at home. Yeah. And wanting to build that awareness too. And it's so much work to do that with a 6-year-old kid. You know what I mean? 

[01:13:28] Alyssa: A hundred percent. It's so much work and that's where like in Hello Cruel world, I feel like she does a good job of giving us.

[01:13:38] It's like a guide here of how are we raising resilient humans who can navigate these kind of complex issues or learn how to talk about things with kids that are hard, climate change, inequality, violence, all that jazz in ways that empower them rather than paralyze them. Like that's so tricky to do and she slays that in this book.

[01:14:07] I feel like there's this spectrum of like overprotective to like resilient. And there's a part of me that, yeah, just wants to shield my kids both for myself and for them, and instead looking at like, how do I talk about it so that they can have resilience, so that they can navigate hard things. So that I can understand too, the difference between like sugarcoating things versus constructive support.

[01:14:34] Mm-hmm. And it's. Tough to know how to do that. We're exposed to so much shit in this world. Yeah. So much information. 

[01:14:44] Rachel: Totally. And it's like also trying to figure out how far into this do I go with this kid? Yeah. Like based on their age and kind of parsing out, like here's what I can tell them in a way where like they have the facts, but then they're not like, okay, well shit, the world is like overwhelmed on fire.

[01:15:01] Overwhelmed. Yeah. 

[01:15:02] Alyssa: Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's, she really goes into like, what does the latest research say about helping kids face reality without overwhelming them? And really why like shielding them isn't the answer in a way that, for me feels hopeful. It's like, here's what you can do. Yeah. Not just, Hey, all this stuff's happening, the world's on fire, and your kids are gonna wonder about it and it's gonna overwhelm them and give them anxiety.

[01:15:25] It's not that it's, here's how you do talk to them about it in a way that's developmentally appropriate. 

[01:15:31] Rachel: Yeah. I love that. 'cause then when your kids are launching into adulthood. They have this foundation of knowledge and empowerment and also like, frankly, like that's how we change the world is for these kids.

[01:15:42] Yes. To know like, here's what's going on and here's what we can do to make the world better. 

[01:15:48] Alyssa: And that they aren't afraid of it. Right? Right. That it's not like, oh, when I hear these things, it's so overwhelming. Instead, when I hear these things, I know this isn't the first time that something hard has happened in the world.

[01:16:01] I know that there have been hard things before and here's what I know about them, and it fosters that we can figure this out. Resilience versus there is no figuring this out. The world's on fire and this is how we die, 

[01:16:17] Rachel: which is how I often feel as an adult. So it seems like I need to start with myself.

[01:16:25] Alyssa: My childhood was not perfect. My parents are not perfect and I didn't grow up with any of the like emotional development work. I do feel grateful. I think I'm a pretty resilient human and I think that came from my childhood of like, they did foster a belief in me to like, find the answer. Figure it out.

[01:16:47] Figure 

[01:16:47] Rachel: it out. 

[01:16:48] Alyssa: Yeah. And that it was figure out, a bull was kind of the message I always got. Okay. Sometimes it was literally sending me to the Encyclopedia Britannica that was in our hallway by the bathroom and like combing through the encyclopedia to learn that. Oh yeah. That 

[01:17:05] Rachel: long learning, we had, we had like the full set.

[01:17:07] Mm-hmm. The full set. 

[01:17:08] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Yep. And diving into that, like sometimes that's where I was finding answers or trying to figure things out. Or when I was 15 and wanted to study abroad in Austria and I, we had no money, we couldn't do that. And. My parents were just like, yeah, that sounds great. Like how are you gonna fundraise for it?

[01:17:27] What are you gonna do to like, make that happen? And it wasn't a like, we can't afford this, Alyssa. 

[01:17:34] Melinda: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was a 

[01:17:34] Alyssa: Yeah, totally. How are you gonna make it? Let's figure it out. 

[01:17:37] Rachel: Yeah. 

[01:17:37] Alyssa: Yeah. And I feel like I pretty consistently got the message that things were figureoutable. 

[01:17:44] Rachel: I feel like I'm giving that message to my kids, but I don't feel it in myself.

[01:17:47] Sometimes. Like 

[01:17:51] Alyssa: mine depends on my cycle. There are days where Zach's like, oh, your period must be on the horizon. I'm PMing. So maybe 

[01:17:57] Rachel: that's why I feel very gloom and doom right now. 

[01:18:00] Alyssa: Mine's like right before my period. I think nothing is solvable world. 

[01:18:04] Rachel: Yeah. Same world. And I usually in the world really dislike everybody that I'm close to.

[01:18:09] Alyssa: Yeah, same. Yep. Like, how 

[01:18:11] Rachel: did I end up here? 

[01:18:13] Alyssa: And I wanna like quit seeded and sell the business and go into a, just a hole where all I have to think about is myself. 

[01:18:21] Rachel: Same. I'm like, I wanna go hike the at by myself. That's where I go when I'm overwhelmed. I'm like, get me out of, well, you don't like being outside.

[01:18:30] Alyssa: Do not. There are bugs and animals and I'm not here for it. Yeah. Think 

[01:18:33] Rachel: about my nervous system F alone. Oh yeah. No, 

[01:18:36] Alyssa: for sure. I'm just like, I'm like, put me in a room and give me some like milk ds and yummy snacks and I wanna binge watch a show and just be in a dark hole by myself. 

[01:18:45] Rachel: I mean, it is a dark hole on the trail.

[01:18:47] And I would also have nerd clusters. It's just I would be walking and sleeping in a tent. So nerd 

[01:18:52] Alyssa: clusters were part of my most recent, uh, s Muddy Romance, 

[01:18:56] Rachel: you guys, nerd clusters. Are my fuel of choice. Um, although I will say on Kain, I was downing peanut m and ms, like it was my job. 

[01:19:07] Alyssa: Hmm. I love peanut m ms.

[01:19:08] I'm not as much of a nerd cluster guy. I mean, wouldn't turn down a nerd cluster, but it's not my go-to 

[01:19:13] Rachel: when I need quick sugar. It just mm-hmm. It hits, 

[01:19:17] Alyssa: I'd rather some sort of gummy situation. Like a, like a sour watermelon. Like those, oh yeah. Those are 

[01:19:23] Rachel: good. Yeah, those are good. 

[01:19:25] Alyssa: Yeah, 

[01:19:25] Rachel: I can get behind that.

[01:19:27] Alyssa: Well, I'm stoked that Melinda's book is out in the world. Folks can snag it. Hello, cruel world. If you want some science-based strategies for raising terrific kids in terrifying times. So this is your book and it leaves you hopeful, from my perspective anyway. And it is fully backed by science, which we need more of these days.

[01:19:50] Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voices of your village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at seed dot and dot. So SEW take a screenshot of you tuning in. Share it on the gram and tag seed.

[01:20:11] Dot and dot. So to let me know your key takeaway, if you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.