Helping Kids Navigate Punishment/Reward-Based Environments with Jon Fogel

Before we dive in: this episode includes a discussion of sexual assault. Please take care while listening.

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and in this episode, I got to hang out with my pal, Jon Fogel, to chat about helping kids navigate punishment, reward based environments, even if that's not what you have in your household. That what if they go to school and that's what they're exposed to or out into the world, how do we help them navigate that?

[00:00:19] Jon is a parenting influencer, a husband and a dad of four who knows that parenting is not about perfection. He has a following of over 1.5 million by making neuroscience and psychology research practical and applicable. Jon's the author of  Punishment-Free Parenting: The Brain-Based Way to Raise Kids Without Raising Your Voice

[00:00:40] He is the host of The Whole Parent Podcast and founder of The Whole Parent Academy where he helps thousands of parents from all over the world ditch the power struggles and build relationships that actually work. Jon and I got into some nuance that you don't generally see on social media. I love that about him.

[00:01:00] Sometimes we dance on some topics and often find that we have the shared values at the root of each topic. Thank you, Jon, for joining us for this conversation. I'm super jazzed for y'all to tune in. Come on over to the gram. You can snap a screenshot of you tuning in and tag Jon @wholeparent. Tag us @seed.and.sew, and let's continue the conversation over there.

[00:01:23] I wanna hear what your biggest takeaway is after you tune in. All right, folks, let's dive in.

[00:01:33] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:50] Let's dive in together.

[00:01:55] How are you doing post? I feel like I haven't super connected with you post book launch in like, the craziness of life. 

[00:02:02] Jon: You know, book launches are a weird thing, weird that people have big feelings about, and that's, that's great that they have big feelings in both directions. And so in one way, I'm incredibly grateful for my book launch in that, uh, we sold close to 5,000 copies the first week.

[00:02:18] Alyssa: Awesome. Of, 

[00:02:19] Jon: of the book, which awesome. Um, I didn't, I didn't know what to expect, but, uh, that was really cool. And really the, the most positive piece, not just sales are one thing, but people buy books all the time that they don't like, uh, the overwhelming majority. I think I have like over 150 reviews on Amazon and all of them are five star reviews.

[00:02:41] And, uh, the number of emails that I get every day of people just saying, this book is changing my life. Um, that's awesome. It's just so beautiful. And, and what I like to say is that there's really nothing in the book that has not been said before in at least five places. Um, tiny humans, big emotions. If you've read that, you prob you, you're not gonna hear anything in my book.

[00:03:00] May, maybe a little bit of the, uh, of the updated just because of timing. Some of the updated stuff about autonomy in kids and the links to clinical depression later in life when they don't have enough autonomy. Some of that stuff was really new when I was writing the book in 2023. Um, but other than that, by and large, most of what I said was said in, you know, 2012 by Tina and Dan and the whole brain child.

[00:03:25] But it's, but it's to a different audience. It's to a different, uh, population of people who, who have not heard this message in this way. And so, um, people are like, yeah, even, even though I may have known everything in this book. Somehow reading it this way is making, is making it feel like it's more applicable to me or, or I have a better chance of actually doing it this time.

[00:03:45] And so that's been the real benefit. But looking back now, a month after the book has been released over a month, um, I look back and I go, I don't think I would change anything in the book. There are plenty, plenty of things that are still yet to be said, and sure, I feel that way, but I also, uh, am very proud of, of the book that is out in the world and more so even in the book.

[00:04:08] I'm proud of the work that people are doing as they read it. I'm proud of the people who are changing the way that they parent. Uh, and if I can be any part of that journey, that's a beautiful thing. 

[00:04:17] Alyssa: That's the coolest part, right? Like when you hear from, we just had somebody who reached out. I'm doing a speaking engagement in a couple weeks for all the, the social emotional learning department for New York State.

[00:04:30] And there was just like some parent who had found tiny humans who works in this department and like heads this department and it spoke to her. It's just like hearing their reflections on this and then the places that it can go and can serve in effect that now we're gonna talk to the, everyone is gonna be doing social emotional learning in New York state.

[00:04:51] Right? Like that is so rad to get to hear people's feedback as they dive into the work. I, I also love the note, this is something Elisa had said when she was publishing her book, when I was interviewing her before it, she was like, this isn't new. Like this is psychology that has been around for a long time.

[00:05:11] I just put it together in a nice package. Mm-hmm. And served it up for you and like. In a different way than I had found it had been served so far. 

[00:05:22] Jon: Yeah. 

[00:05:23] Alyssa: And I have such respect for that of like, there are a number of folks in the parenting space who are like, we have a new something. It's like, actually no, that's been around for about you packaged it differently, which like, rad if that hits home for people.

[00:05:39] But I, I loved that acknowledgement. 

[00:05:41] Jon: Yeah. And I think that you can kind of speak to this too. You, you're, you are one of the few people who I feel like really writes in the way in which I write. I think you can pick up tiny humans. I think that you can pick up punishment free parenting as, as a, a parent who's got a kid on a hip.

[00:05:59] Alyssa: Totally. Like, give it to me fast. Who's 

[00:06:00] Jon: washing dishes doing that boundaries chapter or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you're like, you got the, you got the headphones in and the noise cancellations on. You know what I mean? And the dishes are going, oh, I know what you mean with the one hand. I got something I can use right now for the next, yeah, it's applicable for the next moment.

[00:06:16] Alyssa: Totally. I want to be able to give people actionable, digestible information that they can take away right away and say, okay, mm-hmm. Here's what I can focus on. Here's what I can apply. And I appreciate that about your work. One thing in our team meeting we were chatting about with your work, and I'm really curious about from you is within our spheres and in our homes, we're really operating as often as possible from a punishment free space.

[00:06:44] Yeah. And then when our kids go out in the world and they live in these punishment, reward-based systems, they're going to school and there's rewards for whatever, and punishments just the, like, what does it look like to have the both end of like, they're gonna go out into the world, into a punishment reward system and have a punishment free home?

[00:07:07] And how do we essentially prepare them for what they're going to encounter? 

[00:07:11] Jon: So that's an amazing question. And you know what, no one's E ever asked me that. That's so rare. Oh, I'm shocked. It's so rare that, that, that I get a, I mean, you know this, right? Like as you go and you talk to people, you kind of get the same, like I I I, when people start a question like that, usually they go, but what about when they like do something real dangerous?

[00:07:31] But I think that your question is much better. Which is? Which is what, how, if we're preparing kids for the world, what, what do we do with that? And I think that kind of three pieces. Number one is the systemic answer to that question, which is, you have the scoop now, but all signs of my book too. If we're gonna be punishment free parents, how do we fix a school system that's mm-hmm.

[00:08:01] So based on punishment and rewards. Yeah. And so it's much more drawing, not off the work of like interpersonal neurobiology. Taking those fundamentals, uh, interpersonal neurobiology, and then going into the work of people like Peter Gray, Alfie Cohen, and saying, okay, so, so now what? Mm-hmm. Like, how do we fix, how do we, how do we fix our school system and, and how do, how do we prepare our kids for a broken system?

[00:08:27] Yeah, totally. And so I'm thinking a lot about this and I think that the, the, the answer to that is, you know, number one, we can try and change that system, the systemic answer. Number two, we can name and be honest about the brokenness of the system. And I just ran into this with my son and just like a personal story where he goes to a kind of an alternative outdoor school for a school.

[00:08:54] And so I have to deal with so many fewer examples of punishment and rewards. Totally. There's no grades that like, I, no tests. So like I don't have to deal with a lot of the, the stuff that most of your listeners are dealing with on a day-to-day basis. But there's still things like, there's a rule that when we're on a hike, you, you have to be behind me.

[00:09:13] And if there's, you know, if you don't do that, then I'm gonna, you know, we're gonna stop the hike, or we're gonna do this, or we're gonna do that. Like, there, there are still these kind of ultimatums that are presented in, in a way that, I'm not even saying they're not some form of function of boundaries, but, but the way in which the ultimatum is presented is coming from a person who was raised with punishment.

[00:09:33] And I don't know about you, but, but all, most times when I'm providing my child with an ultimatum, even if I'm thinking in my head, this is a boundary, really the way I'm presenting it as punitive, because that's my whole paradigm, right? Like, I don't have, it takes so much conscious effort to not do that.

[00:09:51] So all of this to say, we, we prepared them at it, them, and go, look, you're gonna go out into the world and there are going to be systems here. And I'm, I'm, I'll explain to you why that is. And so it took a long conversation of saying, okay, this is probably the reason. Why that rule is in place. And then him saying, well, so do, are you saying I have to follow that rule?

[00:10:12] Say, well, I'm not telling you what you're gonna, what you, I mean, I, I'm not there, so I can't make that choice for you. But when you're walking on the hike, think about the consequences not only to yourself, but also to others of violating what feels to you like an arbitrary rule, which we've now established together as maybe not an arbitrary rule.

[00:10:34] Now you understand why, but even if you don't understand why with the next rule, ask yourself, is this the hill to die on? And, and, and maybe the answer is, you have total. And, and he we're working with the him on this of just this very respect based paradigm. And this is very woo woo. If you're thinking about getting my book, and you're like, wait, I don't know if I'm this far.

[00:10:55] My book does not go as far as what I'm gonna say right now. In my own family, in my own world, and, and this is two years after punishment free parenting was written. If I wrote it today, I'd probably be more like this. But when I wrote it, I was not at this point. Where I am now is kids deserve total and complete freedom.

[00:11:15] That that said, we have to protect our kids. Obviously we need to create boundaries. Obviously we need to hold our kids accountable, obviously, but guess what? Your kid actually has total and complete freedom already. It's just coming to terms with the reality that they do and realizing that not presenting them with a false version of I actually can control you.

[00:11:41] You can't. And, and so when you operate from the truthful perspective of you can't control your kids, you can only guide your kids and all of your levers of control ultimately are gonna fall short even if they don't fall short Now at three. They're gonna start, you know, fracturing and fragmenting at eight and nine, 10 and they're going to fail completely at 16.

[00:12:03] When you understand, then you start treating your kid with total and complete respect and autonomy and explaining to them the consequence you know of, of whatever they're doing. Then you actually get to go to your kid, which is exactly what I did. And I said, and by the way, that's still freedom. Choosing to follow the arbitrary rule, even though you think it's arbitrary is freedom.

[00:12:24] You have the freedom to choose to be compliant. You have the freedom to choose to be obedient because it serves you. And so now make your choice. Do you want to go on the hike? Do you want other people to go on the hike? Well then be compliant even though you don't 

[00:12:46] Alyssa: wanna be. Yeah, I love this so much.

[00:12:48] 'cause this is something we were chatting about in the meeting of like we of the things now, sage's younger, he is. Almost four. And he's in a really rad childcare program that I feel privileged to get to have him in. And so we haven't encountered a lot of the like punishment, reward, jazz in school. But I do a lot of work in elementary schools and in middle schools.

[00:13:11] And a lot of what we're doing is a culture shift away from punishment, reward systems and into emotionally and sensory supportive environments. And so we are navigating this a lot from a work perspective. And one of the things that has continued to come up that I've really pulled also into our household is this idea of like, yes, I want him, my child and all children to be free to be themselves and to show up fully as they are.

[00:13:44] And I want him to have skills and them to have skills to thrive in whatever they wanna do. And sometimes that's gonna mean that he might wanna work at this one job down the road, and he might have to know how to work in a group with other people, even with people who maybe aren't pulling their weight or aren't doing X, Y, and Z.

[00:14:07] And he, we were talking about this today with like receiving gifts and mm-hmm. The difference between like gratitude and the like. Polite thank you. Where it's like, I don't really feel deeply grateful for this thing, but I've learned to say thank you for this and that there's differences in sji, and I talk about this at home of like there's, you can say that same phrase multiple ways.

[00:14:31] And I could come in and say the same phrase multiple ways. I could come in and I'll change my tone and I'll get really big and I can say it like this and I can say those same words like this and drop my body and communicate differently. And we'll tell him like our bodies respond differently to those things.

[00:14:49] And you get to choose when you come into that space, if you are going to say, I need this, or I want that, or I'm using this, or can I please have a turn with that? Mom, can you please help me? Me Beans took my toy. Yep. And that the people around you, their bodies, even before their brains are thinking about it, their bodies are gonna respond differently depending on how you say something.

[00:15:14] And you get to choose in those, in those moments what you wanna say, how you wanna say it. And I think that this can get, uh, for some people it feels like we are making everybody show up in a certain way or like, oh, they're gonna say the thank you and not be grateful. And it's like, right. And also that thank you might just serve them in life.

[00:15:33] Jon: This is such an amazing point. Thank you for saying all of what you've just said. Um, I, I cannot agree more. I feel like I'm finally having a conversation with a person who is not an extremist, really. Like, I, I really do. Because, because this is like, this is so fundamental. I think when you move past the paradigm shift of kids are really defined by how adults view them.

[00:16:00] Once you've moved out of that, you get to, to get to the nuanced middle, which is sometimes you have to deal with annoying people who are not healed, who are, who are going to cause problems. And I want you to be able to identify those people so that you don't wind up in some sort of toxic relationship.

[00:16:17] Absolutely. I want you to be able to identify how you don't feel good around this person. I also want you to realize that like not everything has to be the hill to die on. 

[00:16:28] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:29] Jon: Because just because you feel a certain way, your feelings can be totally and completely valid. And also you can consider how those feelings are going to be received by people who like are just not where you are.

[00:16:44] And, and, and that level of nuance for a child is what they're asking us to teach them. And what I am concerned about, I'm not, I'm not concerned about like. Oh, kids are gonna be like, ungrateful, or kids are gonna be this, or kids are gonna be that. I think a lot of that is, is noise. Um, and, and it's a lot of it's talking points that justify punishment.

[00:17:07] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Uh, 

[00:17:08] Jon: I, I think what I'm more really trying to say, or what I, I, where I am in my journey is realizing that being prepared for anything means that you have to be honest with your child about what's out there. Mm-hmm. And so that's why, that's like my 0.2, which is 0.1 is we can fix the system to be less like that.

[00:17:29] We can, we can have a, a better world for our kids to be in. Point two is you're not, even if we change that system, you're not gonna change all the people in it. 

[00:17:36] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. And so 

[00:17:37] Jon: you have to be able to realize, like, you know, that you, you're working that first retail job and that person's being a real jerk to you because they're really mad at your company and you're just smiling and you just go, okay, thank you.

[00:17:50] Because that's way better for your life than being like, Hey, so you're being a jerk right now. Which may be true, but is that what you want? You want totally. You want the fallout for what's gonna happen then in the same way where it's like, oh, it's not okay that your little brother steals your toy. It's not okay that he did that.

[00:18:09] I can go take it back from him. He's gonna scream for three minutes, or we can come up with a better solution to navigate this problem in a way. That way you don't have to listen to him scream. It's not even about what, what your little brother's gonna feel. It's about are we all on the same team here of saying we don't want him to screams Yeah.

[00:18:27] For four minutes Totally over this. And if the answer is yes, then like, okay, well let's figure out a, a different way that we can do this. Yeah. And, and, and that actually empowers kids, right? When they feel like, and my son, even when he feels like, oh, sometimes I have to like, accommodate the grownups in the room who are acting like toddlers.

[00:18:48] He actually feels empowered by that. He feels like, oh, I actually get a sense of like, oh, I get to decide how. How I wanna be perceived. And that's a totally different thing than you must, that is, you can do this in this way. This is a social skill. You wanna learn how we can navigate this conflict. You wanna learn how dad deals with that person who emails 'em.

[00:19:11] He is a real, you know, not, it's nice, this is how dad does it. Oh, I, what, here's what I could say, but how's that gonna serve me? And so that's, that's number two. And then the, my number three thing, and I think this is like right, right, where we're about to land. So those, one, two, number three is you can always still have a safe home.

[00:19:32] And what my good friend pitch her book too, Eli Hardwood says, um, really our job is to be a, a safe home base to go back to. And the overwhelming majority of the time, what your kid needs is a place to go back to, to refuel, to fill up. And so if you're worried about like, oh, but their school is gonna be this, but there.

[00:19:54] Friends are doing this, but they're gonna go to a play date and the parent might say this, or they're gonna go to my in-laws. And my in-laws might say this. Yeah. And they're gonna come home. And if you have an open and honest relationship with your kid where they tell you this stuff because they know that they're not at risk of being punished, then you can actually process that stuff like I did with my son.

[00:20:15] Again, nothing against his teacher. His teacher was actually doing probably a really great job in that moment, but in his perception it felt punitive. Um, we can process that later. And, and basically that, that becomes a non, what we call a, a, a non-toxic stress moment. What we're trying to avoid with our kids is toxic stress.

[00:20:34] The only difference between toxic stress and tolerable stress is the presence of a supportive environment according to the Harvard Department or whatever, developing child, uh, I'm forgetting the title, but yourself, developing human whatever. Um. But, but you know, that's, that's what Harvard tells us is that, is that the presence, the presence of a securely attached caregiver is is, is it?

[00:20:55] And so my thing is, if you want your child to be prepared for the world, you, the best thing that you can do is make home that secure environment. It makes them more resilient. Versus a lot of parents think, if I'm my child's first bully, well then that'll toughen them up for the world. 

[00:21:10] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:11] Jon: Uh, we just know from the research that this is just, I'm preaching the choir with your audience, I'm sure.

[00:21:16] But, but we just know from the research that this is, this is the opposite. Yeah. Uh, so that, that's, that's what I, that that was a long answer to your question, but 

[00:21:24] Alyssa: No, I love it. It, I love it so much. I, it's interesting. This might be a little trigger for people. I'm gonna mention sexual assault, but I was having this conversation with a friend of mine the other day.

[00:21:35] I was raped when I was 14. She was sexually assaulted also in her teens. And we were having this conversation and she was like, oh my God. I was about sleepovers and like, what are you gonna do about sleepover? Is he gonna let him go? Are you gonna, whatever? And I was like, oh yeah, no, I'm, that's not something that scares me.

[00:21:50] And she was like, really? Like even given your experience. And I was like, yeah, this might sound bonkers, but my goal actually isn't to make sure my kids don't experience sexual assault. My goal is to make sure that they have a place to process it and come to, no matter what happens in their life, do I want them to experience it?

[00:22:10] Of course not, but it's not my goal to prevent it. Ultimately, it's to make sure that they have a place to process and turn to. And I think about this in the world in general, that like. Just recently we were with my family and, uh, bless my parents are incredible, and also this is very new stuff for them.

[00:22:33] And something had come up and my mom was scared about something with Sage. And so she had said like, oh, you can't go do that, but that's not safe. Your body's not gonna be safe up there. And he came back later and was chatting with me about it, and I was like, oh, yeah, sometimes Grammy feels scared, and so she might tell you that she doesn't think something safe, even if inside your body feels like you're safe and you know that you're safe doing that, Grammy feels scared and she doesn't know what else to do in those moments when she's feeling scared.

[00:23:01] She wants to try and keep you safe. And ultimately it was just like this blip of a conversation that was like a passing moment, but I was like, how rad that he knew. That he could come, he could talk to me about it. He could process that. And I'm not like, oh yeah, you don't have to listen to Grammy. I'm just like, yeah, this is something when she feels scared and now he knows that there are gonna be times where she says that you're not safe.

[00:23:24] When inside he does feel safe, and then he gets to choose, do I keep climbing up that ladder or do I come back down? Like, what's the choice I'm gonna make if I keep climbing up? Grammy still feels nervous. That's a choice he can make. Or do I come down, even though I know that I am safe to keep climbing and Grammy doesn't feel scared in that moment, and that's a fine choice to make too.

[00:23:45] I don't need him to stop what he's doing for her comfort. And also if he chooses to do that, I'm okay with that too. Love, uh, that he gets to make that choice. I 

[00:23:54] Jon: love that. I love that. Well, and yeah, I, the, the one, the what, what you said about sexual assault, I think is so profound, and especially as a survivor, like this is, this is so profound for you to be the one who says that I think.

[00:24:10] I would say kind of two things to that before we go into what Sure. I'm gonna call the family equity model, which is, I think, I think exactly where, where we're headed. The first is, I am coming into that place of the sleepover. Mm-hmm. Like, okay, how do I feel about this? And if you had asked me two years ago, I'd have said, no, my kid will never go to a sleepover.

[00:24:30] And if you asked me today, I'd say my kid will probably go to a sleepover. And obviously there's, the dangers are different when it's a boy versus a girl, but the dangers are, there are, there are other dangers that are mm-hmm. Kind of going to be there. What I would say is, number one, raising your kid to be not unquestionably obedient.

[00:24:52] While that is not going to prevent all sexual assault, that will prevent certain types of sexual assault. Mm-hmm. Certain types of predatory behavior where adults utilize and use. Obedience as and, and the authority of the adult. Totally. As the tool of abuse. And so if you really want to protect your child, not that you will be able to unquestionably protect them for everything.

[00:25:19] You will not, but if you want to do better, it's actually less about keeping them out of those environments because you don't know where those environments are. That environment could be at their school during second period, like you don't know where it's going to happen. The same thing as a parents tell their teenagers, you know, like, you were a teenager, I was a teenager.

[00:25:43] You know, you can't, you be at our house with your girlfriend at, you know, uh, 10 o'clock at night. 

[00:25:50] Alyssa: Well, guess what? That didn't prevent. 

[00:25:52] Jon: Yeah, you totally, you know what we were doing at eight o'clock in the morning, you know what I mean? Like, like, this is not, this is not going to change. Right. You can think about the environment.

[00:26:02] Oh, the environment is, that's it. That's the thing. It's not. Your kid, wherever they go, they're gonna be there. And so if you train them to not train them, but if you foster deep resilience to obedience first mindsets, that's a huge protective thing. And then the second thing is that other predatory behavior, it can sometimes be prevented by the predator knowing this child's gonna talk.

[00:26:31] And so having a kid who feels they're from a punishment free mindset, I can bring anything to my parent because there's no reward or punishment that's associated with that. Yes, that can be its own deterrent. Now again, like you said, my very good college friend, 4:00 AM waiting at a bus stop that you're not preventing that.

[00:26:51] Yep. Like there is totally is just, it's hor, it's horrifying that we live in that world and in the midst of that. There are also things that we can do that can be protective to what you said about, about, you know, sometimes you climb down because it messes with Grammy, what I teach my kids. And, and one of the things I didn't get super into in the book, but I, I allude to it in passing reference and something that I definitely was going to do in a book about siblings, which is somewhere down the road for me, is this concept of a family equity model, which is everybody gets what they need.

[00:27:20] And I get so much pushback from the gentle parenting community because they're like, no, the parents should give all of their selves and they should just, just pour out until they have nothing left and then give some more, you know? Yeah. That's why I hate the term gentle parent. Yeah. I know. I also, I also hate to put word gentle parenting.

[00:27:36] Uh, somebody asked me yesterday, they met me and they were like, oh, so you wrote a book about parenting as Yay. Yeah. And they're so you're gentle parent. And I was like, don't love that. In fact, in fact, when Tina wrote the forward to my book, she was like. This is distinct from gentle parenting for the following five reasons.

[00:27:51] Yeah. Love. So, yeah. Yeah. So no, we, we, we too, uh, not a big fan. Um, uh, yeah, but I get in big trouble when I say that too. But one of the things that I get in trouble with those folks about beyond just saying I'm not a gentle parent, is when, when, uh, when I talk about kids should be aware of the emotions that they trigger in you, not because they should try and prevent those, but because they should be aware that saying something rudely is going to warrant or is going to incur such a response and or reaction.

[00:28:24] And so the family equity model is just, how important is this to me versus how important is this to you? And if this is a one out of 10 importance for me, but this is a seven out of 10 importance for you. The ethical, moral, relationally strong thing to do is to actually defer to the other person. Now. As a parent, if you're in the family equity model, you also have to be aware that sometimes stuff that's gonna happen with you, probably just like a three out of five or three out of 10 inconvenient that you're gonna go to, uh, you know, have to go out to the car for them at night because they left their whatever in the car.

[00:29:06] It's three out of 10, it's cold. You gotta put your shoes on. You already put your peaches on, you don't wanna go out. There you go get it yourself. You're the one who left it there, but it's a nine out of 10 dis uncomfortable for them. 

[00:29:16] Alyssa: Hmm. The family 

[00:29:16] Jon: equity model says you better get your slipper on. You're going outside, so it's, you're going outside.

[00:29:22] So, so it's not just about, you know, the parents, the child. It also extends to grandparents. They're climbing up that tree. You know, what, how important is it that you can climb that tree right now? Well, this is the only time I've felt brave enough to do it, and I really want to capitalize on that. All right, then keep climbing.

[00:29:41] You know what, I do this 14 times a day. Probably don't need to do it when grandma's here. It's an eight outta 10 stressor for her. You don't give a crap. So just don't. And so this is the, this is the real thing that's part of like every hundred gatherer tribe. We, we do this, we do this relational bargaining, where we go, how important is this to me?

[00:30:06] However, and I just saw somebody, a social media relationship person say that they do this with, with, uh, couples who are trying to debate over what they get for dinner. Well, you want Indian or Thai? I don't know. What do you want? I don't know. What do you want? Okay, well, what is it for you? Well, like two out of 10 want Indian.

[00:30:21] Eight out of 10 want Thai. Oh, I was like a 50 50 split. We're getting then. Yeah. 

[00:30:26] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:30:26] Jon: But if we're not honest, we wind up accommodating and becoming people pleasers. Because if you don't tell your kid when they're bothering you, then they're just going to try, especially if they're a highly sensitive kid, they're gonna just try and please you all the time.

[00:30:41] Mm-hmm. And so it's another one of those paradoxical things. Like punishment. Punishment actually makes kids misbehave more because now they're trying to figure out where the line is. Hide all your feelings from your kid. They're just, they're just going to be more and more people pleasing because they have an inbuilt desire to want you to like them.

[00:31:01] Of course. Is it okay? Survival. Yeah. And so because of that, we have to be willing to be honest with our kids now. We also have to do our own work. We also have to apologize when we take that too far. All of these things can be true at the same time. But I think that that's, that, that's, to me, the next step in autonomy building with kids is like, yeah, did it feel safe to you?

[00:31:22] Great. It didn't feel safe to Grammy. And, and I love what you said. It's not that you're just gonna ignore what she's saying. This was the fight that I recently got in, in my own family where it was you're, you're telling the kids not to listen to me? No, I'm just telling 'em that they have the option.

[00:31:36] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:37] Jon: That's the difference. If you say, stop doing that. Why? Because I said so. I'm gonna tell 'em that's a bad reason. Keep doing it. If you say, stop doing that, it grosses me out and I'm trying to eat right now. Okay, now they got a choice to make. Let's make that choice together. Let's, let's be vulnerable enough to let kids actually know what we're feeling and wow, will they make really good decisions.

[00:32:01] Alyssa: I love so much of this. I wrote about, because I said so in tiny humans. 'cause I grew up in a, because I said so hassle. And just actually yesterday we're doing a team retreat in May and our whole team's coming together. A lot of the people on our team have never met. We're a fully remote team and we're all coming together for a long weekend.

[00:32:22] And one of the folks on our team had done a lot of the legwork for like figuring all this out and finding the Airbnb and all that jazz. And she was like, all right, once you book this, just send me the stuff and I'm gonna put together like itinerary and stuff for the weekend for everybody. And I send it over to her and she reached back out and she was like, oh my gosh, the additional rules section, there are 7 million rules.

[00:32:44] Like what is this? And I was like, oh, hilarious. I. Saw that there were additional rules and then just didn't look at them because I don't care. And she was like, in what world could somebody just not look at them because they don't care? And I was like, I mean, I know how to operate at an Airbnb and at a house and I'm just gonna be respectful of this space and not do anything really dumb.

[00:33:05] And that's it. Like I'm not going to just like follow this random rule that might be written on this thing. It's so not how I operate as a human. And she was like, oh my gosh, the opposite. Like, I will follow all of these rules because she grew up in a punishment culture. And she's like, I can't not like the idea of not following this rule and knowing that it's a rule is so stressful for me.

[00:33:28] And I was like, oh my gosh, hilarious. So the opposite for me. And so growing up, and a, because I said so household, anytime I got that as a response, I was like, okay, cool. So I can still do it because, so it doesn't matter. That's not a reason. Yeah, it doesn't matter. And I want to know the why. I also just think that like.

[00:33:47] It's a form of respect with people. Like if my husband said, because I said so, I'd be like, over my dad body, like absolutely not. Is that gonna be how we have a conversation? And I'm not gonna do that with my kids of just the like, why can't I do this? Oh, because I said, so just insinuates, I have power over you.

[00:34:08] Mm-hmm. And I am going to assert that just because, and me personally, no, I will not follow that. Um, my daughter is the exact same way. My son will follow it because he is afraid of stepping outside of the, he's interceptive sensitive. And so if there's a shift in somebody's tone, if there's a shift in their body language, he is hyper aware.

[00:34:32] He really notices those things. My daughter and I are not neuro sensitive humans, and we're just like, eh, yeah. Everything's gonna be 

[00:34:38] Jon: fine. So sometimes, sometimes people get mad. Yeah. Yeah, it's fine. I, well, so I think, I think like, you know, two things about that. Number one, I think you're, you're dead on that this is for, for many people, that is the reason that they un unequivocally follow rules.

[00:34:52] I think also there's, there is a, there are personality things here. Mm-hmm. I'm not a huge, I'm not a huge proponent of any individual personality typing system. Um, but I have found, I have found value in the Enneagram. I've found value in the Myers-Briggs. I've found value in, in kind of these different birth orders type stuff.

[00:35:10] Mm-hmm. Um. I have never found any value in, in astrology. I'm sorry, I just have no, sure. I'm, I have zero respect for the planet's input on my temperament. Um, to which, to which all of the people on the thing are furiously Googling when I was born. And so I was such a Capricorn. Um, you could just say something vague and then everybody will agree Totally.

[00:35:34] Um, but, but I do find value in like the Enneagram and, and my, and the Myers-Briggs. Yeah. And, and the thing with the MNBI, the Myers-Briggs is that I, there's this, uh, intuitive versus sensing like the s versus the N And what I've found, at least in my work with, with parents, is that folks that are like you and I who are intuitive, clearly, like we don't read the rules because we can kind of just guess at them and like mm-hmm.

[00:36:00] That just kind of makes sense. But, you know, ends do not. Usually make great surgeons, um, ends do not make good, uh, compliance officers at nuclear reactors. Absolutely not. Because, because there is a level at which when something gets so complex, you can no longer intuitively just kind of guess. Sure. And, and when it's an Airbnb that's like, oh, no harm, no foul.

[00:36:24] But when it's like a nuclear reactor, like we don't want that. Like, just because you don't intuitively know why you shouldn't do that thing doesn't mean you shouldn't just press that button. Yeah. And I'm for sure not reading the directions, so. Right, right. And I think that there's a, I think that there's a, a place in the world where like, totally those folks can thrive now if they're following the rules because they feel it's the right thing to do.

[00:36:48] That's beautiful if they're following the rules because they're terrified. Totally get that. Then we got some work to do. Totally. 

[00:36:54] Alyssa: Then we got some work to do. 

[00:36:54] Jon: Yeah. 

[00:36:55] Alyssa: But I think you're right. There are just like, my husband is a rule follow, he also, like, we get a new game, he's reading every direction and I'm like, we can figure this out.

[00:37:02] It's a game. Right? Like, and he will read every rule are the stakes. Yeah, exactly. Stakes feel so low. But for him it feels important to read the rules and play by the rules and whatever. And that is, and it's not, I mean, we're playing a game, right? It's not from a place of fear that he's gonna get it wrong or in tr he's gonna be in trouble.

[00:37:20] It's just us at home. It is how he's wired. And my son is very similar 

[00:37:25] Jon: and, and that's, that can be beautiful. My, my shut outside right now. The doors are really messed up and I have to rebuild the shed basically. Mm-hmm. Because, uh, I just started putting together and I was like, this is not gonna be a problem.

[00:37:36] It was a problem. Um, the, the, the shed doors didn't work and then I tried to work around them and then I destroyed them and then like, now they, they are terrible. And so like. Now, like, am I gonna trade the however many, $200 that I'm gonna have to pay for new shed doors? Like, probably not for like, all of the hours of my life that I've not spent reading directions, but, or, or not carefully enough reading directions.

[00:37:57] But, uh, you know, if that had been the world's largest building, I want, I don't, I don't wanna make that mistake. And so, you know, airline, airline safety checks, uh, don't put us in charge. So, so like, I think that there's a place for that. And then also, you know, a place for other people to step in and say, you know what, this is my, this is my spot.

[00:38:18] This is my time to shine. Let me read the additional rules. And so I think it's, I think, I think that that's, that's like the beauty of, of this paradigm and, and coming to a truly accepting place of oneself and others, is to just be able to say, you know what, um, read the rules. You, you go ahead and do that, and maybe it'll save us some headache.

[00:38:38] I'm gonna have another cup of coffee while you do. Correct. And that's, enjoy reading the rules and it's not, and it's not bad, right? Yeah, no, exactly. It can be, it can be both. But, but if you're, it's coming from that fear-based, punishment based thing. 

[00:38:52] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:38:52] Jon: You're, you're, to me, that's, that's actually like a violation of that person.

[00:38:58] And, and just the last thing that you said, I know that we're kind of out time, but, but the last thing that you said where you said, this is just a, a piece of respect. Mm-hmm. I think if you take away anything from my book, and I think if you take away anything from your, the thing, main thing that I took away from your book, that the place where they're the most similar is that both of us just have an intrinsic desire to treat the tiny humans, as you call them, with respect and dignity, as if they are people.

[00:39:27] And, and to me, children are not future people. They are not. Someday people, they are not. Well, you know, if we, uh. Condition them well enough. Then there'll be people. They are people, plain and simple. They are people who sometimes make irrational decisions, just like the grownup people. There are people who sometimes have emotions that are beyond their control, just like the grownup people.

[00:39:52] Now they are also people who are, you know, in construction to an extent. There are gonna be places where like there's gonna be holes in the floor that you can fall through. And of course, that's why we talk about neurobiology. That's why we talk about psychology. That's why we, that's why we develop the strategies.

[00:40:08] That's why you did the training. This is why we both write the books. And none of that changes the fact that they are deserving of respect and dignity just because they are. And I think that that's because they're, that that is if, if if nothing else. When people, nobody has ever people frequently ask me, so why did you write a book about going punishment free?

[00:40:31] And usually it's, well, because that was like. Was the easiest thing that I could point to and go, if we stop this one thing, then it's the trickle down. But if you want the real answer, if you just respected your kid as a full human, you probably do pretty well. You don't read any books. You don't need to read my book.

[00:40:50] You don't like reading the book. You don't need to probably, you know, I'm you going off script here. Yeah. Probably don't have to read tiny human big emotions. You certainly don't have to replenish for free parenting if you just respect the heck outta your kid. You're gonna realize very quickly how much of the parenting problems come from a profound lack of respect for children and just a lack of respect for their personhood.

[00:41:12] And if you can just get that one thing. Boy, so much stuff, and this by the way, is why like Book two is gonna be about the school system. I don't think we would do that to any adult. I don't think we put any adult in a, in a building where we said you can't leave. I don't think you did put any adult in a bunch of classes where you say.

[00:41:31] Hey, whether this is interesting or not, you are stuck here for an hour. I don't think any adult is told You got 30 minutes for lunch. I'm gonna start screaming at you to stand up. If you don't, I don't think we, I don't think you put any adult who wants to get up and move around freely and you say, you sit here and if you need anything, you raise your hand and ask for a pass.

[00:41:51] And if you don't get one then you just pee in your pants. We don't do this to adults and I think that's where, as a society mm-hmm. We are reaping what we sowed. 

[00:42:01] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:02] Jon: When we, when we see kids spiraling into mental health issues and feeling like I'm unworthy when all they have been told by our actions is, you are unworthy.

[00:42:15] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. Two things just came up for me real quick there. One, I had this moment when Sage was a newborn and we were in like a family gathering and. People wanted to like hold him and it just didn't feel right. And I just kept saying like, no, but making up excuses for why not. And then I turned and was talking to Zach's cousin and was just like, oh, I feel so uncomfortable with this.

[00:42:47] And she was like, yeah, because you respect him as a human and you don't wanna pass him around like a doll. And I was like, ah, yes, yes. He's a person and I'm not just gonna pass him around so that people can get their hands on him. And it was just like a ah, yeah, like respect is at the cornerstone of all of this for me.

[00:43:10] Um, and I also thought of, there's, there's one school we've been doing a lot of work with that has a real high needs population. Um. A lot of the kids have at least one incarcerated parent, uh, two, and a lot of intergenerational parenting, low income community that we're doing a lot of work with. And there was this one interaction with this little guy.

[00:43:34] He's in kindergarten, and he had just gotten into an argument with one of the lunch, uh, aides, one of the lunch staff working at the lunchroom, and he was kicked outta the lunchroom and his teacher happened to be walking by at that time, and she popped down and she was like, what's going on? But he was like, uh, no.

[00:43:54] And like, just not able to like talk to her. And she said, Hey, I'm gonna snag your lunch. Do you wanna just come hang out with me in the room and we can have lunch together? And he just like nodded his head. She grabbed his lunch and she walked back. And it was just this beautiful depiction of like, you're not in trouble.

[00:44:14] I'm not mad at you. You, mm. You're having a hard time. Why don't you just come back to like the safe space in our room and we can be in safety together so that your body can get back to feeling safe without having to like talk through things, without having to like let him know what he's not allowed to do or why he was out there in the first place, or yada yada.

[00:44:33] She just met him with respect and supported his regulation and I was like, sometimes it's really that simple. Like it's really just that simple and we overcomplicate it with like, what's the reward system gonna be to keep this kid in lunch or whatever. And I'm like, can we just be in relationship with these humans as 

[00:44:54] Jon: I think that that's beautiful.

[00:44:55] The foundation That's That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. It's such a good place to end, I think. Yeah, because that's like one of my kind of foundational principles is just wait for sure. Like if you wait five minutes, everything is better and. How, how often does that little guy go into that room and have his lunch, and maybe it's today or maybe it's tomorrow, but eventually says, why did that happen?

[00:45:24] And then you go, yeah, because you got in that argument. What was that argument about? It's about this. Hmm. Well, how can we prevent that from happening again? This is why one of the things that so many people like to throw around is say yes to the feeling. You don't have to say yes to the behavior. You could say yes to all the feelings and not say yes to all the behaviors.

[00:45:49] I, I kind of despise that because mm-hmm. To me, I'm like, no person wants to be out of relationship. You don't have to say no to the, the behavior. The behavior says no to itself. You put that kid in a better environment and, and all of a sudden they'll say no to the behavior. Yeah. They'll have choice. That can be its own beautiful healing thing.

[00:46:14] Yeah. 

[00:46:15] Alyssa: Yeah. Oh, I love it. John, thank you so much. I am so stoked that your book is out in the world for folks to snag and that you also just continue to serve and support us over on social with all the red gifts you provide us each week. Thanks for being you. 

[00:46:32] Jon: Yes. And if you're looking for my book, I encourage everyone.

[00:46:35] I don't have any sort of special partnership with them or anything like that, but I've been trying to direct people. I know people are not huge fans of big, giant multinational conglomerates. Uh, if you don't wanna buy my book on Amazon or at Target or at Barnes and Noble, of course it's available in all of those places.

[00:46:52] Walmart, whatever. You can go over to Better World Books. They also have my book, um, they support low income communities. They're a nonprofit and uh, my book is the same price as it is everywhere else. Also free shipping. So go check that out. 

[00:47:05] Alyssa: Better World Books. Love that. Shout out. 

[00:47:08] Jon: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:47:10] Alyssa: Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors.

[00:47:12] Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:47:20] I was just on vacation and growing up. My brother that is closest in age to me, he's four years older than me, was like the hardest relationship for me. We would just butt heads all the time. He would say things that were just like honestly mean. Like I would be hanging out with my friends and he'd come over and say things like, oh yeah, I paid her to come over and hang out with you.

[00:47:51] Like just, just dumb mean. Yes, like brother stuff. Mm-hmm. And, uh. It has continued throughout adulthood where like he, it was the hardest relationship for me in so many ways where I'd be like, okay, we're going into Christmas at my parents and I would have to like develop mantras and have a self-care plan for like, what does this look like?

[00:48:16] He's gonna be there. Mm-hmm. How am I gonna not just live in such a triggered, dysregulated state? Mm-hmm. And we had like a really big, messy, hard conversation after SIE was born, maybe about almost a year old. And ever since then, things have been, it was like the first, I feel like real conversation we've had of like, Hey, here's how I feel when you say these things.

[00:48:48] It's like, here's how I feel when you say these things. Mm-hmm. And I feel like you treat me like X, Y, and Z, whatever. And we just, it was gnarly and it was not done in a beautiful way, but it got to some stuff and ever since then things have been so much nicer and we just spent a week together at the beach and at one of my like reflections was how rad it was to have him there for the week.

[00:49:18] Like so nice. My kids are obsessed with him and he was so sweet with them. And every night after their kids would go down we would just like hang and chat and it was so lovely and I was thinking about how, like, how we got here and also how some of the ways that we were raised I think really pitted us against each other.

[00:49:49] That like control was really important. And respect. And there was always like punishment was looming. It was always gonna be a punishment if you did or didn't do something and we would tell on each other or get each other in trouble or things like that. And there was like, I guess this culture where we like really were pitted against each other in a lot of ways where the other person could maybe be more successful in relationship if the sibling went down for something.

[00:50:26] Rachel: Yeah. Like it's your fault, so you're gonna be the one who gets in trouble. 

[00:50:29] Alyssa: Yes. And then I will look like the good one. 

[00:50:32] Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. There was that too in my upbringing. Um, and now with my kids, I'll say like, I, I'm actually not interested in whose fault it is. No, I don't really care whose fault it is.

[00:50:50] Like, let's just, we're all on the same team. Yes. We're all trying to enjoy living together, so let's just chat about this. Um, but like I remember so distinctly as a kid, like when punishment was looming, being like, it wasn't my fault. Like he did blah, blah blah. Right. Like a hundred 

[00:51:09] Alyssa: percent 

[00:51:09] Rachel: blame him because I don't wanna be in trouble.

[00:51:12] Alyssa: Yes. I don't wanna be in trouble. Exactly. And my brother and I have very different nervous systems and now that I understand the nervous system more, I like get him more. Like every single day. He didn't hang with us during the day. He would go, he likes to fro Frisbee golf. Oh yeah. Okay. Um, he like, so is that like disc golfing or is Yes.

[00:51:39] Yes. Disc golf. Okay. Yep. Okay. Um, and so he'll go like, find courses and throw discs and, um. He ho hosts his own disc golf tournament every year. Like he's very into this and he likes alone time and downtime. Mm-hmm. And he'll go and take it and do it. And growing up I just thought it was weird. Mm-hmm. And like, so antisocial, anti whatever.

[00:52:06] Antisocial. That's exactly what the 

[00:52:07] Rachel: word that was coming from. Me too. 'cause that's my knee jerk reaction is like, oh, they're antisocial. 

[00:52:12] Alyssa: Yeah. And now I see it and I'm like, oh, you know, he is so good at taking care of his nervous system. And he's like, yeah, I, if I hang out with these kids all day, I'm gonna lose it.

[00:52:23] And so I'm gonna go do this. Mm-hmm. Because that's gonna bring me joy and be relaxing for my nervous system. And then when I'm here and I'm on as the uncle I can be on. Yep. And be kind. Yep. And yeah, I just have so much respect for that now that I did not have without. Other perspective and context, but I was thinking about this in, in relationship to John's work, in his book Punishment Free Parenting and how just like ingrained punishment is in so many cultures and especially in school culture.

[00:53:02] Rachel: Yeah. My kids' school it, it's all punishment, reward based. And it's interesting to see how the two of them respond so differently because like Nora's not sensory sensitive, but she's super emotionally sensitive and able, is sensory sensitive but not as much on the emotional side. And so like he sees punishment rewards and he's just like, okay, well I'm gonna do it anyway and I'll deal with the punishment 'cause I really don't care.

[00:53:29] And then Nora is like, I'm terrified of punishment and I will do anything to avoid it 

[00:53:38] Alyssa: because I'm connection seeking. Correct. And that means 

[00:53:40] Rachel: we would be disconnected. Yes. So like Abel after school, Nora will regularly ask Abel, did you get in trouble today? And she, he's like, oh no, I don't care. That's literally, he's so indifferent.

[00:53:56] Like he's just like, he'll just be like, yeah, I had to go in timeout or whatever. And Nora will be like, why? And he'll be like, I don't know. I, I just went back to playing afterwards versus like, Nora this morning was like, mom, I have a stomach ache because I did my corrections on my spelling that I'm not sure if they're all right and if they're not all right, I might have to work on it during recess.

[00:54:14] Alyssa: Hmm. 

[00:54:15] Rachel: I was like, what will happen if you have to work on it during recess? And she's like, well, I don't want to because like not everybody will be. So if I am, then like people will notice 

[00:54:23] Alyssa: and 

[00:54:23] Rachel: then I won't feel connected to play be to other humans with my friends. Correct. I'll be isolated and I'll stand out and yeah.

[00:54:30] So it's just like interesting how we have dealt with, I. Punishments in our family with that. We don't use them, but like to see them go out into the world and navigate them so differently has been really interesting to me. 

[00:54:47] Alyssa: Yeah, a hundred percent. And like thinking about just the difference between punishment and consequences, I think it's really murky for people and it's like, well, they did something wrong and there needs to be a punishment for it.

[00:55:04] And being able to break down the difference between, yeah, I'm gonna make this punitive and I want them to feel this so hard that they will never do it again. Right. That they will deeply regret this. That it's like if punishments worked, then. O-S-S-I-S-S like in school, suspension outta school suspension, jail, prison.

[00:55:25] They're like, those would work. We'd be like, oh yeah, they went to jail and we never saw them do that thing again. Right. Or they had ISS in school suspension and we never saw them do that thing again. Like, no, what we're saying is we don't know what to do with you and this feels out of control for us. And so we're trying to assert some sort of control in dominance and power.

[00:55:50] 'cause we feel like as the adults, we've lost it. Uh, 

[00:55:53] Rachel: literally. I remember actually, so the first time Abel had time out was like literally the second day of school. And he was like, I know it's so good. I mean, it's terrible, but it's also like so funny. So, um, he was like, mom, why, why did, um, he calls her the helper.

[00:56:14] He's like, she's the teacher's assistant. Like classroom aid? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I actually love her, but she's like lacking tools big time. So he is like, why did the helper put me in timeout? And I was like, yeah, some grownups don't know other ways to respond when a child does something that they don't like or that they shouldn't do.

[00:56:33] So she doesn't know how to just like talk it over with you. What she thinks she needs to do is make you sit quietly so that you realize that you weren't supposed to do that and hopefully won't do it again. And he was just like, oh. Okay. And continue. What a weird approach. Literally he was like, wow, this is so dumb.

[00:56:55] Um, and he continues to get time out and continues to not be able to, that's what's not working, not be able to change the behaviors because he A, doesn't have clear expectations from her, and B does, has not been given any scaffolding for like how to meet those expectations. So I, you know, I do what I can from home, but I'm also just like, I can't be there.

[00:57:18] So Correct. And he, because he doesn't really care. I'm just like, whatever. It's not affecting your emotional wellbeing that you're having time out right now. Totally. So whatever. If it was Nora, I would have to do something about it because she would be like broken 

[00:57:32] Alyssa: inside. But also the timeout would quote work for her as long as she had control over her nervous system.

[00:57:39] Right. Like that's where it is. If the child. Is say connection seeking, but they're overstimulated and they can't stop moving their body. Or they are in a reactive state and they literally don't have access to self-control. Then that timeout won't work, even if they're connection seeking, but if their connection seeking and they can access any semblance of control or even go into shutdown mode, that's what she does.

[00:58:07] She disassociate so 

[00:58:08] Rachel: it looks like she's being compliant. 

[00:58:09] Alyssa: Totally, yeah. And then she's so high 

[00:58:11] Rachel: masking. 

[00:58:13] Alyssa: Well, and like this is where like beans is gonna dance with the devil a little bit because she's connection seeking, but she goes into fight mode. So like her nervous system reaction is not to shut down.

[00:58:24] SIE goes into shutdown mode and so he often appears compliant and he's really just offline. 

[00:58:32] Rachel: This is actually like a point of frustration for me now as Nora's getting older and like the academic expectations are pretty high for her right now and. I like mentioned in passing to another parent that I know, but I don't know well that like I haven't pursued a diagnosis, but she has all the symptoms of A DHD and girls and she was like, oh, I would never think that.

[00:58:55] Like she's always so like quiet and organized and attentive. And I'm like, yeah, at school she is. Because if she gets to a point where she's losing control, she just shuts down. And then at home it's like all that restraint is gone. So look out. You know? And so that is like something that I am struggling with of like how I.

[00:59:18] And like, I guess my question right now that I'm trying to deal with is like, how important is it for me to try to pursue a formal diagnosis? Because as the academic rigor increases, 

[00:59:27] Alyssa: yeah. Well, what will it provide her? Like what accommodations would she receive at school if she had a diagnosis? So 

[00:59:34] Rachel: if, if I felt she needed it, which I, I kind of feel like eventually she's going to, because as the academics are getting harder, like now she's worried about her grades, which I'm like, Nora, in fifth grade, your grades are meaningless to me.

[00:59:47] Like, please don't stress about this. So she does? Yeah. Um, so it's private school, so it's a little tricky. But if she had a diagnosis, I could get her an IEP through this public school system in the town that she goes to school in, and then her school would need to honor that. 

[01:00:03] Alyssa: Um, 

[01:00:04] Rachel: but what 

[01:00:04] Alyssa: would they, what accommodations would be put into place?

[01:00:07] Right. So like that's always, I look, look at it, I have a meeting 

[01:00:10] Rachel: with them, right. And so it would be pretty easy for me because I have the privilege of being close friends with the vice principal of, yeah. So if I just, you could 

[01:00:17] Alyssa: advocate for somebody to support her with the organization 

[01:00:20] Rachel: or stimuli. I text this person who's my friend and be like, here are my concerns.

[01:00:25] What can we do? Yeah. Yeah. And but the what can we do is what I'm curious about. I think for Nora it would be like, like for instance, she's gonna come home this week with a study guide. She hasn't come home with it yet. The test is on Monday. She really should have had that study guide like Monday of this week.

[01:00:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, things like that. And like I could talk to her teacher about that, but she like doesn't want me to because she doesn't wanna be different. So it's like this balance of how, how hard do I push on these things right now? Mm-hmm. So like that's so interesting is one thing that I would advocate for.

[01:00:57] And then like her teacher has a no late work policy. Ah, you don't get credit if it's late, like period, which I think in fifth grade is absolutely bonkers. Um, and so I would advocate then also just 

[01:01:09] Alyssa: another way to have power and control. 

[01:01:12] Rachel: It's so dumb. Also, you should, she shouldn't have homework, but that's another whole situation.

[01:01:15] Um, so I would advocate for her then to get those homeworks, um, earlier. Yeah, totally. To have more time things, things like that. Um, yeah. And I haven't felt, I don't feel like her situation right now with academics is like impacting her self-worth, but like the second I feel like it is, I'm gonna have to do something.

[01:01:38] Yeah. I just keep trying to be like, I don't care if you have a d in social studies. I literally don't care. 

[01:01:45] Alyssa: What's so annoying about this is that you shouldn't need a diagnosis to receive the accommodations that you need to thrive. Right? Like that's what equity is. And it shouldn't be that you need a diagnosis to receive those accommodations.

[01:01:59] Like what a broken system we live in because everybody has a nervous system. And when we come into a space and say like, okay, yeah, how does this person learn best? I wouldn't be like, oh, actually she needs an IEP to have glasses. Um, nope. Right. That if, if what she needs is glasses to be able to see, we're gonna make sure she has glasses to be able to see.

[01:02:24] And we operate on the basis of everyone is regulated or able to regulate all the time to access the information that they need to access, whether it's social, academic, cognitive, whatever. And that's such a failure because there's not a single human on the planet that's regulated all the time and able to access those things.

[01:02:52] And I think instead, we should be asking ourselves like, how does this person regulate what is helpful for their nervous system to be able to access the academic, cognitive, social, emotional skills, and what can we put into place to help them be successful with that? 

[01:03:11] Rachel: Also, like the whole, just like academics.

[01:03:15] In general, it needs an overhaul. 'cause I'm like, Nora, think about the test that you've done really well on. Why have you done well on it? And she's like, 'cause I remember the answers. I'm like, okay, so you memorized the answers, but like, can you tell me anything about that unit? Like do you remember any of it?

[01:03:31] Was any of it meaningful for you? No, it wasn't. So it's like, I don't want my kid to care and feel like she has to do this. Like rote memorization. Yes. To get a certain letter on a report card that's gonna have no like weight on her life in any way. And like she's not even remembering the material. Like what 

[01:03:51] Alyssa: is the totally point?

[01:03:52] And we put teachers in such a crappy place where like schools receive funding, teachers have assessments that happen throughout the year, all to look at like how are the kids performing and not, do they actually know this content? Can we. Teach beyond just the test 

[01:04:15] Rachel: and, but I don't feel like they feel like they can, 'cause then they have these standardized tests and then whatever the, well, even 

[01:04:21] Alyssa: beyond the standardized tests, like teachers have to be evaluated or assessed all throughout the year by their admin.

[01:04:29] And that can determine, like we were actually just in conversation with the state recently about public school teachers and that the public school teachers, worst case scenario, like somebody from the state would come in and say like, you have to reapply for your job. Like your job can be taken away if you're not getting high scores on these teacher assessments that are about like.

[01:04:52] Do you have like, control over your class and are your kids performing well? And so then, yeah, they're in between a rock and a hard place where they have to, they can't pause this lesson to navigate the life skills in the classroom that might need to be addressed because they need to make sure this kid can perform on the test.

[01:05:14] Rachel: Yeah. It's ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. And then what ends up happening is it's snowballing. So then it's like, yes, the teacher who has them the next year mm-hmm. Now has kids who are a year older with more complex emotional and social lives who still don't have the life skills. 

[01:05:29] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:30] Rachel: And it just piggybacks.

[01:05:33] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's been really cool. 'cause you know, we do a bunch of work in elementary school programs and seeing schools that, like from an admin level down, embrace what we're bringing to the space. Really looking at like we don't only wanna look at the kids who have tier three plans, we wanna look at all humans.

[01:05:55] We wanna look at that tier one support, tier two supports of like your classroom environment, the teacher's skills. Is everyone able to access what they need To be successful in this space is what first and foremost we need to address to even be able to see academic success and true academic success where the kid can remember this content and be able to apply it and continue to grow deeper in the academics.

[01:06:22] And it's been really cool to see. There are some schools that have me come in and they do, I do like a workshop for the teachers, but they're not diving all into this. And it's like, yeah, you're not gonna see lasting change versus schools that go all into this and we get to do in-depth work with them.

[01:06:38] And the admin, it's like top down where I can say, Hey, we have the admin support for you to not worry about this child's academics over the next month. All we're gonna focus on is connection and regulation. 'cause then they're actually gonna be able to be successful in academics. Absolutely. And the teacher can only say yes to that and truly embrace that plan if they know they're not gonna get in trouble from their principal.

[01:07:03] Totally. It has to be admin down. Yeah. And it's been really cool to see what's possible when we have that. 

[01:07:09] Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. I don't blame teachers for this. No. Yeah. This is a frustration with the system. And it's also just, you know, it's the water we swim in. Like one of Nora's friends wasn't allowed to talk to her on the phone because she had low grades.

[01:07:25] And Nora was like, I have the same grades. Mm-hmm. And I was like, yep. Different families respond differently to grades and what it means for how you get to show up in the world, and I'm not gonna take away your ability to connect with friends because you're having a hard time with the material at school.

[01:07:46] Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's just punishments and rewards are everywhere. And they're everywhere. I feel like all I can do is make our home a space where like they don't. Feel that pressure, um mm-hmm. And try to help them build skills for when they do have to work under that pressure. And it is for kids who are emotionally sensitive or feel shame easily.

[01:08:12] The pressure of working in a punishment reward system is very, very intense. 

[01:08:19] Alyssa: So intense. And like of course we have high levels of like depression and anxiety in kids with the amount of pressure that's placed on them. 

[01:08:30] Rachel: Yeah. Like Nora having a stomach ache this morning over like a spelling thing. Yes. And I'm like, again, I don't care if you know how to spell those words, I really don't.

[01:08:37] Alyssa: Yeah, totally. And there isn't a punishment or a reward that's gonna make it easier for her to spell those words. Exactly. Right. Like if our goal is that she can spell those words, we gotta look at what's the barrier to entry for her? What is preventing her from being able to access that? And troubleshoot that.

[01:09:01] Mm-hmm. Oh man, it's, yeah. 

[01:09:05] Rachel: And I don't have that same like ABLE is academically like doing incredible. Yeah. And cor nor is older, so it's harder, but he also, because of his nervous system, can sit and focus on a lesson in a way that she's never been able to do. 

[01:09:22] Alyssa: Yeah. I'm so curious to see what it's gonna look like with my two, because ag is sensory sensitive and gets overstimulated and overwhelmed and he is neuro perceptive sensitive and doesn't want to get in trouble.

[01:09:40] And so I'm curious to see like how all of it's gonna play out for him and when he gets overwhelmed, he will shut down. So. It will look like he is, for the most part, fine and attentive at doing fine. But will he retain it? I don't know. Uh, in the way he's gonna be taught or in the system he'll be in, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna play around with it and see what happens.

[01:10:05] And then for beans, just like buckle up man, because she is connection seeking, but she goes into fight mode. Yeah. And so she's gonna be the one 

[01:10:13] Rachel: who like always talks out in class and a hundred percent. Yeah. This was 

[01:10:17] Alyssa: me. I was like, I got sent to the principal's office for spitting spit wats in the cafeteria.

[01:10:21] 'cause I'm trying to connect with other kids and play a game and whatever. And I am not nervous about being in trouble. Beans is not nervous about being in trouble. Yeah. 

[01:10:34] Rachel: Yeah. I honestly it man, we're hard. I actually like, I prefer. I love that Abel doesn't care if he gets in trouble. I know that I'll probably totally eat those words when he is older, but like it's so much stress for Nora because she is Yeah, totally.

[01:10:50] Always thinking about that's like, yeah. It's like sad too. Yeah. You know, just, I don't want her to think about that. Yeah. 'cause you're not in trouble ever with me. Literally. Never. 

[01:11:02] Alyssa: No. Yeah. So, so much of my work with Sji is saying things like, it's okay to make mistakes, bud. I make mistakes all the time. You get to make mistakes.

[01:11:11] I love you even when you make mistakes. Yep. And Mila will not have to say those words too. Yeah, no, Abel actually, she was like, yeah, doc, happy to make mistakes with Megan all the time. Fine. Not worried about you. 

[01:11:24] Rachel: I can't remember what Nora was telling me in the car, but it was like something that she was worried I was gonna be upset about.

[01:11:29] And so I started in with my usual spiel and Abel was like, Nora, it's fine. Mom's gonna love you anyway, because that's just like, he's just like, yeah, it's whatever. If we get in trouble, yeah. Check. Done fine. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's, it's navigating that and it's navigating the nervous systems and I used to feel a lot more like, I don't ever want my kids to be exposed to punishment ever in any capacity, and I'm gonna like protect them from that.

[01:11:54] And it's like, that's not the world we live in. No. They are gonna be exposed to punishment, reward systems. They're literally everywhere. 

[01:12:02] Alyssa: Yeah. I just wanna be their safe space. Same. And I want to create an environment where they can learn and grow. Right. And so that's what comes up for me is like. What is my best avenue as an advocate for my kids?

[01:12:20] How will they need me to show up and advocate for them? And it's different for each kid of like Sji will need sensory accommodations. Mm-hmm. To be able to thrive and beans, oh, what is beans gonna need? She might just thrive because she is a sensory, she might just speaker, she might be like, yeah, 

[01:12:45] Rachel: she might just be like vibing in school.

[01:12:47] And just like, there's so much connection and so much stimuli. Like it might, I mean, Nora academically, I should homeschool her, but socially she could never. Yes. Yeah, totally. So it's that because I could get her academics done in like two hours and then she could have the rest of the day to just like be, but she would never be fulfilled just being home with me and 

[01:13:08] Alyssa: able.

[01:13:09] Totally. Yeah. Sie would love to be homeschooled. Um, and I have no desire to homeschool, but from a stimuli perspective and a connection perspective, he's not looking for excess connection. He would love to be homeschooled. Uhhuh beans would hate it. Mm-hmm. She already, like when we do Sage's childcare drop off, she's like, why am I not going in there?

[01:13:31] Oh yeah. She's crying. She wants to stay. Uh, she loves being around other kids and humans. I think for her it'll be like, I see a lot of myself in her and I'm a very good test taker. I can learn and memorize exactly what needs to happen, but I will not retain it unless it's taught in a specific way. Mm-hmm.

[01:13:50] And so for her, if it's like learning and growth that we wanna have happen, it, she's gonna have to not just memorize for the test. 

[01:13:58] Rachel: I know. That's literally what I'm trying to like navigate with Nora right now. To be determined. I don't know what's gonna happen. CB, D, I love her school and I understand the pressure that the teachers are under and I have no desire to move her or think that she needs to be moved, but definitely some challenges.

[01:14:21] Alyssa: Yeah, it's hard to navigate those punishment, reward systems outside of our control. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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