The Danish Approach to Parenting & Screen Time with Jessica Joelle Alexander

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village. Today, I got to hang out with Jessica Joelle Alexander. She's the bestselling author, cultural researcher, parenting expert, and co-founder of Raising Digital Citizens. Jessica's work around emotional wellbeing and positive digital habits has been featured everywhere from the Wall Street Journal to BBC World News, and her book, The Danish Way of Parenting, is one of my all time favorites.

[00:00:26] It's no wonder it's been translated into over 33 languages. In this episode, we dive into the Danish approach to parenting and screen time, exploring how we can foster healthier, more connected relationships with technology for both ourselves and our kids. I love Jessica's work. It is truly life-changing for me.

[00:00:48] I've taken so many bits and pieces into my everyday life. I've learned so much from her, and I'm so grateful for this and am jazzed for her new book The Danish Way Everyday. I'm gonna be doing a book club with my husband to dive into this bad boy as well. Remember to stay tuned for the breakdown with Rach at the end.

[00:01:09] This one is full of goodness today. It's a longer breakdown, but we really dive into a lot of jazz in this one. Folks, let's dive in.

[00:01:24] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:41] Let's dive in together.

[00:01:47] Alyssa: What inspired you to like come into the parenting space? Like what kickstarted that for you? 

[00:01:52] Jessica: Uh, so I mean, just to give a little base background, so my, I'm, I'm American obviously, um, but my husband is Danish and I've lived in quite a few different countries and I've always been interested in cultural differences.

[00:02:04] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:02:05] Jessica: Um. Fascinated by how culture shapes, how we see things, et cetera. But then when I became a parent, I really noticed how profoundly parenting is different in every culture. 

[00:02:18] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:02:18] Jessica: How profoundly the culture shapes the way we see parenting and how dogmatic mm-hmm. It is. Mm-hmm. In every, in different countries.

[00:02:27] And so I think, well, a couple of things. First, becoming a parent, I don't know about you, I'm sure I'm, you know, it rocked my world completely. 

[00:02:37] Alyssa: Mm. 

[00:02:37] Jessica: Um, I, I, I've often said that when I became a parent, I gave birth to myself. 

[00:02:43] Alyssa: Hmm. 

[00:02:44] Jessica: That's sweet. 'cause it was such a, you know, it was such a transformative period for me.

[00:02:49] And, um, and, and living in different countries. I was very. I was just sort of studying for a while, these different parenting approaches. Um, and I had sort of deduced, I'm, I'm also psychology background. I'm very interested in psych. You know, I was reading so many parenting books and, and what I was finding was that I really, I really was preferring the Danish approach.

[00:03:13] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:14] Jessica: And there was like a way they all seemed to know. And it was very sort of, it just made for me, it just made sense. And it was, it was straightforward. And so just over the years I sort of stopped going to the books. I stopped looking. I, I was quite convinced that this was really something magical.

[00:03:34] Plus if you've ever been to Denmark or anyone's been to Denmark, the kids here are just incredibly happy and serene. And you rarely hear, like, screaming or, I mean, it's, it's, it's almost weird. Yes. 

[00:03:49] Alyssa: Oh, I'm so curious. I wanna break this down a little bit with you. What are the cornerstones of it that really stuck out to you, and where in the states did you grow up?

[00:03:59] Jessica: I'm from 

[00:04:00] Alyssa: Florida. 

[00:04:01] Jessica: Okay. So Sunshine. Yeah, 

[00:04:05] Alyssa: sure, sure, sure. Yeah. What, what about the, like, Danish way of parenting is so vastly different? 

[00:04:16] Jessica: Well, we have an acronym parent. Um, I, uh, I, I won't do my, my cheerleading, um, for each of the letters, but there's some very basic, straightforward differences I would say. Um, one is just play, which is, you know, we, we talking a lot about play, now we're understanding the importance of it, et cetera.

[00:04:37] But back, back when I wrote the book, and also in Denmark, play is absolutely the most important thing that a child do. Mm-hmm. So it's actually, it's, it's, it's kind of like we talk about it now and the importance of it, but this is actually a country where you can see that they've embraced it. Yeah. It's a cultural difference.

[00:04:57] It's like the way this kind of over programming that we have mm-hmm. It, it seems weird to a Danish person. Mm-hmm. Because they think, why would you not? I mean, children are sort of innately they want to play. It's how they learn best. 

[00:05:14] Alyssa: I'm wondering, do the adults play too? So I studied abroad in Austria a couple decades ago and lived there for six months and have maintained really close friendships.

[00:05:25] We actually just took the kids there last fall and my husband's been back with me and whatever, and. What I am so drawn to in Austrian culture is that the adults play that there's just such a priority. The the focus is not on like, what's your job? What do you do? It's on like, who are you and what are you up to?

[00:05:47] Like how are you shouting up in the world? What are you doing? What are you interested in? There's a culture of adults playing, and so naturally children are expected to and allowed to and given the space to play because the adults aren't overscheduled. And that's what I find such, just like a vast difference from Austria to here is this like shift in, they're like, what do you mean you have two paid vacation weeks a year?

[00:06:16] Like what? Like that's bonkers, right? Or that we don't have paid leave and thus like parents are jumping back into work and there isn't. There's just such a. Packed schedule, uh, and agenda here that doesn't allow not just the kids to play, but the adults to play and relax and just be. 

[00:06:39] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think, you know, the concept that I would say most correlates to that, so the tea and parenting is togetherness and hygge, you've probably heard of hygge.

[00:06:47] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:48] Jessica: Mm-hmm. And hygge is this Danish word that went into the dictionary, the English dictionary, I think 2016. And it's essentially, it is very much sort of about that, which is this idea that it's really important that we, we give time to be together, to not be striving, to be in the moment, to have fun, um, to not be in, not have anything subtly divisive.

[00:07:16] So no, like bragging, no politics, no sure nothing controversial. It is really like, so play is a perfect example of something that's very. Because it, it, it gives us that time where we can, um, I call it, okay. This is gonna sound cheesy, but um, you know, you've heard of mindfulness. Yeah, sure. And it's, you know, being in the moment not thinking about anything else.

[00:07:39] And it's, it's very popular now and everybody says that it's, you know, it's very tied to happiness and wellbeing. I feel like the Danes have kind of evolved. Mindfulness and it's hygge is not mindfulness. It's willfulness. Uhhuh. So it's being in the moment with the people you care about. Yes. Without other thoughts, without thinking about myself.

[00:08:02] Sure. So it's a little bit like giving up a piece of myself for the whole, 

[00:08:07] Alyssa: it's like my dream and I, another Austria just comes up for me 'cause it's like my, like cultural tie in here. One of the things I also feel so drawn to, that's tied into the, like, overscheduling in the states. For instance, in the States, somebody will be like, we're gonna have like a play date.

[00:08:24] I will come, we're gonna come over at 10, and there's like a, we're gonna leave by noon. And it's like this set, very structured. And in Austria it's like, yeah, we're gonna get together for coffee. And sometimes we're then hanging for hours and just kind of like seeing where the day takes us and what happens.

[00:08:41] And I found for myself in relationship, I feel the most connected and relaxed when there isn't a timeline on it. When it's like, yeah, we're just gonna, and my best friend shows up in this way. She'll just be like, Hey, I'm gonna pop over with the kids. And sometimes they're then staying the night, sometimes they're staying for dinner, sometimes we're playing for a little bit and then they're heading out like, but it isn't a, we're gonna pop over for from this time to this time.

[00:09:08] And I've just realized for myself to feel connected and at ease. When I know it's coming to an end in 15 minutes that somebody has to go or whatever, I don't relax into it. The like overstructured nature of that prevents my, like, what was it, edness or mm-hmm. We, we Yeah. That like prevents that when there's a timeline on it.

[00:09:31] Jessica: Yeah. It's funny. So I was living in Italy actually when I wrote the, the Danish way of parents. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, you know, you can apply this anywhere. I had my American hat on still. Sure. And so I really had to sort of, because I, because I had seen the Danes had been voted as the happiest country for so many years.

[00:09:48] This was really what inspired me to think, oh wait, maybe it's the parenting that makes them so happy. By the way, Austria is very high as well. 

[00:09:55] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:56] Jessica: Um, and so I, you know, made me a believer, right? Like, okay, but, so let me, let me try to apply this anywhere. And one of those things was just what you said, like this unstructured play.

[00:10:06] But I had to get some friends. To do it with me. 

[00:10:09] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:10] Jessica: Because just like you're saying, otherwise you get into that overscheduling and I had an American friend visiting me, um, and we had had a birthday that just ran into the night and everybody was just playing and the adults were hanging out and, and she was, she was, was so shocked.

[00:10:29] She's like, this would never happen. This would never happen. It wouldn't, she's like, we are like, okay, you come at six, you go at eight. You know, we've got, 

[00:10:37] Alyssa: you know, every day. She was 

[00:10:38] Jessica: completely, it was really funny. 

[00:10:40] Alyssa: Yeah. It's like, well, the kid's bedtime and we have to get back for this or for that and whatever.

[00:10:44] And it's so. Hard for me to just connect in that way. I've, I've learned, and I yearn for so much more of just that here, 

[00:10:57] Jessica: but I think, you know, it's, um, the, the way I think it's possible is just by sort of what you said, surrounding yourself by other parents who also sort of believe in it. And fortunately it is becoming more talked about.

[00:11:10] Now we have the science that backs it up. Mm-hmm. Um, and my thing was always like, okay, hold on. We have these countries that are voted as the happiest in the world for 40 years in a row. Yeah. Where free play is actually embraced as an educational theory since 1871. Never gone out of style. But now we have science that's also showing, Hey, hold on.

[00:11:30] This is actually really good for children also when parents are not stressed. 

[00:11:35] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:35] Jessica: Because you're allowing your children to actually do what's the most natural thing for them. Yeah, totally. And they're able to relax and it just, it's becomes like this cycle of. More calm, more relaxed, less stress, more wellbeing.

[00:11:48] Alyssa: That's it is like, if I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, you know what? I'm like checking my clock and we gotta get back, we gotta make dinner, we've gotta whatever. Just yesterday when we were in this, like outside hang time, right after my kiddo came home from school and we're playing and my neighbor has four young girls and she, we kind of like, will share a backyard and the kids come and go and, and play, uh, in each space.

[00:12:15] And she was like, oh yeah, my husband's traveling for work right now. He's gonna, I'm so parenting for the next couple days. We're like, great, what do you need? Right? Like there's just like a natural kind of give and take between us. And I was in making dinner with my daughter and my son went over and was playing at their house and she texted me, was like, he's in our house.

[00:12:34] If you're looking for him, I'll let you know when he is coming home. And I was like, great. Send other kids over. If you're like, there are too many kids in my house. Like, just like whatever needs to happen. And that like ease and flow of coming and going and what do you need? Do I have it? Can we combine and share?

[00:12:56] I'm wondering if the Danes kind of naturally operate in a more collective manner. I feel like so often we're in isolation. Like I'm gonna the grocery store by myself and preparing food for my family for the week. And, uh, driving my kid to school by myself rather than like, who in my neighborhood's going to the same place for school.

[00:13:16] And we can carpool and we can connect and just like be in community with each other. Wondering if that's something you've seen happen more naturally. 

[00:13:24] Jessica: Yeah. And I think it's also, it's um, it's seen as such, it's seen as something that's also important to teach. Mm-hmm. Which is what I've seen is really different and what has made me more aware also as a parent about, about what we teach.

[00:13:38] So they have something here called. I'd love, I, I put this word up as like the most crazy word. It's called uhhuh. And, um, yeah, it's a fun word and it means obligated togetherness, uhhuh or, or responsible togetherness. And it's, it's something they see as important to sort of transmit and also teach in schools and at home.

[00:14:00] And basically it's this idea that we're not alone on a deserted island. We need each other. Um, we also learn about ourselves through other people. We're all part of a sort of system. Our family is a system. 

[00:14:16] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:16] Jessica: Our class, like we're, we're part of a group. And whereas this very opposite of the American way, which is sort of much more individualistic, you know?

[00:14:26] Yeah, totally. And so, so they, so they have this thing where they, they find it very important to teach and model. This responsible togetherness, which is basically this idea that sometimes it's also a bit like huga, but huga is more fun. So Huga I think is the fun version of this. Uhhuh, this is when it's easy to do because you're playing a game.

[00:14:45] Sure. It's easy to do, doing a puzzle. Yeah. Or you're with people that you love or that, you know what I mean? Responsible to togetherness is like when you have to do chores together. Sure. Or when you, when you as a parent do something for your child that maybe you don't wanna do. 

[00:14:59] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:00] Jessica: It's giving up a little piece of yourself for the, or going to the relative's house and being Yeah.

[00:15:05] Right. Being part of the community and, and so it's some, it's really, it's really kind of interesting to see. So we've just moved back to Denmark the last couple of years and it's so interesting to see the difference in my son, the younger one of like how much more helpful he is. You know? Yeah, totally sign me up.

[00:15:30] Part of like the society, it's part of really what's being taught this idea of, you know, again, yes, it's fine to do well and you should do well, but usually we're operating in a system. Yeah. And whereas you may be great at math, you may be terrible at soccer. 

[00:15:50] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:52] Jessica: So yeah, it's about like helping each other.

[00:15:56] Alyssa: I love that and please sign me up. It just, just like resonates so much. So my, a little bit of my background, I did research in building emotional intelligence in kids with a colleague and we co-created what we call the collaborative emotion processing method. And that's what we researched and just believe so deeply that we are social beings and things happen collaboratively, that we lean on each other for things, even if the collaborative part is we're not talking or touching, but we're just sitting in the same room next to each other.

[00:16:29] And you have a safe place to cry or to express and know that you're not gonna be shamed or that you're safe to do so, and that you have someone here in whatever capacity you need them. And it's been interesting to see my son and daughter are two just very different humans at very different nervous systems.

[00:16:50] And my son. Really for him, A lot of the times, like there's a plan A, there's no plan B, like cognitive flexibility is something we have to work on a lot. And with that comes a desire for control over the space and the environment. Because if Plan A is, I'm gonna build this elaborate like track and car thing and I have this whole thing built out in my mind, allowing somebody else to come in and provide input and their own perspective and their own strengths into it is something that he needs support in building that skillset.

[00:17:25] My daughter's driving factor is connection. She's just constantly like, how can I be in a hang? She doesn't care what she's playing with. She doesn't have a like plan A for this is how this has to happen. She's just like, cool, how do I fit in so that I'm doing this with you and I feel included and feel like I belong and feel connected to you?

[00:17:46] And watching them like navigate the world is so interesting because he's a human who wants like one solid close friend and she's like, give me a hundred. I want all of them. And then seeing like, how does that show up in school? How does that show up in everyday life? How does that show up in, um, our household and in family gatherings and things like that?

[00:18:10] When we're looking at kind of that Danish way, what is there for understanding, acceptance, flexibility around different nervous systems around Neurodivergence, 

[00:18:24] Jessica: that's not my specialty. Um, sure. But I think there's, um, I would say there's a massive focus on definitely they call it different, different differentiating.

[00:18:35] Mm-hmm. Um, between different kinds of kids. And also the schooling system is not nearly as rigorous. Yeah, sure. There's a much bigger focus on the whole child. Yeah. So a big shock for me coming, coming back, you know, I was in the American system before and, and particularly my son struggled quite a lot with the whole rigorous academics.

[00:19:00] Yeah. Um, and I've written, I've been writing about Danish education for many years and I've been studying it and in and out of schools, but I hadn't had them experiencing it, Uhhuh. And so when he started there, it was so amazing because he had previously always considered himself kind of like challenged with learning, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:19:24] And after like a month in the Dayner school, you could just see he was so much more confident, um, because they do, they do so many different things than just. Academics. Sure. Yeah. So, so they're outside a lot. They're building with wood. They're, they have food, art. Yeah. Um, I think it's generally easier because everyone is, it's easier to include everyone.

[00:19:52] Correct. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. It's not just, okay, these are the, these are the three things that you can be good at. Sure. These are the three things you can be talented at. The teachers are even trained in something called, which means they're trained to see how to do activities, group kids in order to foster this community.

[00:20:15] Sweet. To foster this collaboration, to bring out their strengths. 

[00:20:21] Alyssa: Is there, I feel like here, talk about overscheduling, like our school system is so heavily data focused and. It's really designed for one type of learner and we're just trying to fit everybody else in with quote accommodations. And it's so overscheduled, right?

[00:20:40] Like I was, I had a coaching call with a kindergarten teacher the other day and she has a little guy who's been navigating a lot of life transitions. She's been having a hard time at school. And she was like, I just feel like he has not learned anything academically in the last like six weeks. And my like challenge for her was to, for the next month, not focus at all on his academics.

[00:21:04] And I was like, here's what we're gonna focus on instead. And really about his regulation and connection and feeling safe and free at school rather than, I have to go from this task to this task. And I know I can't figure this out. You can't focus on stuff right now. I was like, you can keep doing this over and over.

[00:21:24] We're just gonna get to June and you're like, oh my gosh, has he learned anything? Or we can shift and say like, what if the learning he needs right now is not the focus on academics? What if what he needs to learn is how to be in his body and how to be in this space and how to feel connected, how to be regulated in this space, how to process what he's experiencing.

[00:21:44] And so I'm wondering from that Danish perspective, as you shifted from that American back into the Danish school system, is there that same focus on like data tracking and uh, making sure they're hitting these certain markers and milestones and that that then means success? And by the way, those markers and milestones we're looking at are of very few subjects, right?

[00:22:08] It's reading, it's writing, it's math, it's science, it's history. It's not, do you know how your body works? Do you know how to navigate things collaboratively? Do you know how to be in a group? So I'm curious what that shift is. 

[00:22:22] Jessica: Well back to actually when my daughter was in kindergarten, um, and I was, I was that parent, like this was when I was sort of on my transitional phase to becoming a Danish way of parenting convert.

[00:22:35] I was that what, what is she learning? You know, why isn't she, you know what? I was having my mom bring me all these like, educational toys and make sure she had her letters and all this stuff. And then I speak to my Danish family and they were like, um, I mean, you know, just let her play. Right. And the more I learned about how serious play was considered and how elevated and important it was seen, that's when I had like a paradigm shift.

[00:23:05] And I thought, wow, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually really believe this and I'm gonna back off and I'm gonna let her. Play, and I'm gonna start really, you know, believing in this and surrounding myself with others that also believe in it. And I think what I discovered, the big shift, and I think what I've really learned from, from Denmark in this is that, so there's a characteristic that they believe is very important for a child here.

[00:23:30] It's called it, I said, and it means to rest well within yourself. Okay. And they believe that you get that from, again, it's kind of like allowing a child to be a child. 

[00:23:41] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:43] Jessica: And not adulting them being a machine of productivity, not 

[00:23:48] Alyssa: putting on them 

[00:23:49] Jessica: our measurements of what we think, you know, is gonna prove something to who I don't know.

[00:23:58] And so it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of, it reminds me a little bit of this, you know, orchid in the dandelion analogy, or seeing children as organic. They're all different and they have to grow in different ways. And we're talking a lot now about the hurried child syndrome. 

[00:24:14] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:14] Jessica: Where, you know, all kids, most children will learn to read by, usually it's around age nine.

[00:24:21] Right. But we push them and push them and compare ourselves and compare them. And the kids feel our stress and they feel our worry and, and what they find is that it all evens out. But of course they learn differently at different times. But the kid that's not pushed, that's not pressured, that's not graded, that's not stuffed into this expectation.

[00:24:45] They are calmer, they have less anxiety, they rest well within themselves. 

[00:24:50] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:52] Jessica: And if you think, especially now with how the future is changing, what is really gonna matter in terms of being successful? Is it gonna be the person that strived to meet all of these adult expectations of boxes to fit in squashing in a way, you know, your own growth?

[00:25:10] Or is it gonna be the very self-confident, the person that rests well, that can go out and handle lives? Yeah. Stories. Um, so I, I, that's one of the biggest things I see is, is this importance of really, it's like allowing a child to be a child. One of the things I'm, I'm actually talking about in a next book I'm, I'm coming out with, um, which I think is very interesting and relevant for this.

[00:25:40] So they talk about the difference between self-esteem and self-confidence. In Denmark. Mm-hmm. At the start of school, it's like a big thing that headmasters will talk about it, teachers will talk about it with parents, so they wanna make sure the parents understand there's a difference between the two, and that they're both equally important.

[00:25:59] Now, as an American, I didn't really think there was a huge difference between them, and the way they often describe it is with a diagram of a tree. 

[00:26:07] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:08] Jessica: So we talk about self-confidence as being the foliage of the tree. And this is like all the things that you can do, all the things you're good at.

[00:26:16] Okay. This is the things also that you demonstrate to others. So it's like your grades, it's, you know how popular you are. It's, it's, you know, your trophies, your awards. Sure. All of things you're good at that you can show status things, status, symbols, all those things. That's, that's huge. Your self-esteem, they describe as the roots of the tree.

[00:26:35] Sure. And this is like how you feel about yourself when you're not. Having all of these things, 

[00:26:42] Alyssa: the hobbies, you, but even when you are 

[00:26:45] Jessica: Right. Like 

[00:26:46] Alyssa: even when Yeah. Even so it's, it's how you feel de 

[00:26:48] Jessica: despite those, yes, exactly. Yeah. How do you feel about yourself as a person? How do you feel about your meaningful relationships, the hobbies you like to do because you like to do them, not because you're getting a trophy.

[00:27:03] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:04] Jessica: And they say it's very important that we nurture both. Mm-hmm. And I think, so they try to get balance between the roots and the foliage. And I think in America and in many other cultures, we assume that when a child has a lot of things that they're good at, that they're, they feel great, they must be so happy, they've got this rich foliage.

[00:27:23] And what they would, Danes would say is that, but if you look underneath, sometimes you'll find they have these little tiny roots because they've spent so much time building these things up that what happens when the storm of life comes. Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:38] Alyssa: I, I love this so much because this was me. I experienced a lot of this.

[00:27:44] I was a star student and athlete and president of student council and had a job all the time and like on the outside high achieving, doing all the things I was supposed to do, and especially in my teenage years, like drowning inside very low self-esteem. I wasn't like, oh, wow, I have these great, I. I must be so skilled or smart or talented or whatever.

[00:28:13] That was not the story inside. That's just what was projected outside. And I think you're right. In the states there's such a focus on like that outward projection with an assumption that that means here's the inward narrative and that so often that's not the case. I mean, we see it, there's pretty good research looking at like Harvard students and these high achieving students, and then the anxiety, the depression, the internal narratives don't match the external projections.

[00:28:44] And it's, for me, it felt like. If I keep doing all these quote right things and showing up in this way, I'm gonna feel differently at some point like that's gonna hit. And it didn't until I was in my twenties and got to navigate therapy and dive into that and build self-esteem. And it was something I had to nurture internally.

[00:29:06] There was no external accomplishment that was gonna shift that internal narrative. I, I love that. I love that. It's a part of your next book. What's your next book called? The Danish Way Every Day. Cool. I love that. One thing I'm curious about, I know you've done work in the digital space, like raising digital citizens.

[00:29:26] You have the CARE acronym. Mm-hmm. And the R being respect. Right. I, I love this and, and you say that there's breaches in agreements that are normal. We all push boundaries, make mistakes, and forget to model good behavior. Raising digital citizens aims to help you avoid power struggles and manage conflicts and consequences in a way that fosters closeness and trust, not distance and hostility.

[00:29:53] I see so much of the screen time narratives being like, they're gonna lose access or they're gonna lose screen time, and it's this reward or punishment. System, which is so common here in the States. Uh, can you speak to this and how that does create the distance or hostility and how do we write that ship so that we can navigate this in a way that fosters that closeness and trust?

[00:30:18] Jessica: Absolutely. So, uh, just tell a little bit about the background of how the raising came to be. So, obviously I've, I've written about the Danish way of parenting and I wrote that when my kids were younger, more like your, your kids' age. And, um, and a lot of people have said that that book is very much, it could, it's a, it's a philosophy really, and the Danish philosophy.

[00:30:36] So I think it, it's got a lot of things that I think are useful just for people in general. The, and so that was really, you know, that was kind of my, my, my passion project. That was what I felt. That was my, you know, my life's purpose. But my kids started to get older and as much as I was following this, this, uh, this philosophy, I started to come up against the screens.

[00:30:58] And my daughter was getting up into the age where everybody in her class had a phone except for her 

[00:31:06] Alyssa: Uhhuh. 

[00:31:07] Jessica: Um, and I think any parent listening who gets to this point will know exactly what I'm talking about. You start to realize, oh my gosh, there's only so long I can mm-hmm. Put this off. And I think even if, you know, you wanna wait a long time and, and, and you wanna hold out like, like I, I really believe in the legislation that's happening in the, the school, the stuff that's happening in schools.

[00:31:29] However, I also believe that at some point we're gonna be facing the reality of this. So I did what I usually do, and I, I tried to find out what they were doing in Denmark, and I was so impressed by the digital citizenship program because it was very much also based on this, um, in Denmark, the word education has two meanings.

[00:31:50] So it's, which is academics. 

[00:31:53] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:54] Jessica: And Daniela, which is like how to be a good human. Mm. Love that. It's like 50, 50% of their education. So you know, that's why they teach empathy in school. All of these things we kind of touched on. So I knew that kids were getting a really good learning how to be a good person also in the digital world.

[00:32:13] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:15] Jessica: And I thought this was really fascinating and I wasn't living in Denmark at the time and I really wanted to give my daughter that access to what they were learning. Yeah. So I studied and studied, studied, and I got the program together. And like I said, any parent that starts to feel when their child really wants more digital freedom, you will feel the pressure.

[00:32:37] And so I talked to my daughter and I said, look, I made these conversation cards that cover all of the kind of what it means to be a good person in the digital world. So it's like critical thinking, safety, wellbeing. Consent, and I wanna go through these with you. We're gonna talk about them so that we get a, you know, I didn't tell her this, but like, so we got a relationship around her digital world Yeah.

[00:33:05] And our family values and what we thought was okay and not okay. And I said, when we finish them, we'll make an agreement and then you can get a phone. And she was like, yes, please. Done and done, ma. I'll work it. Let's talk. Come on. So it took about a month. It was very like, it was HOA not homework. 

[00:33:28] Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:30] Jessica: And we sat down and like, like I said, it was based on this Danish approach. So it's very much, it's very much coming in on their level, listening, being curious, having your child tell you what they know. Mm-hmm. And learning together, because actually there's so much that we don't know. And I think that right now the discussion is so fear-based because of course fear sell and there's a lot of truth to the fear.

[00:33:58] I, like I said, I don't discount that, but we also know from research that actually the best protection is a good relationship with your child. 

[00:34:08] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. The best 

[00:34:09] Jessica: protection is if they trust you is if they've been able to talk to you. And even though you hear a lot of times, even from like Jonathan Hyde and all of these people, you hear them say, make sure you talk to your kids.

[00:34:22] So many parents like myself, find themselves in a position where they're like, I don't know where to begin. Yeah. I don't know how to cover all of this. So for me that was like a huge missing piece. And like I said, I thank Denmark for giving me the, you know, the input for the, I feel like you should be sponsored by Denmark this month.

[00:34:42] I should be sponsored by Denmark. I, it, I mean, you know, it's, I think it's, it's really interesting because it's such a non-commercial country. 

[00:34:51] Alyssa: I was like, the irony of 

[00:34:52] Jessica: that is hilarious. Yeah. It's such an un country. Yeah. And, and I think because the language is so difficult, like it's, it's been in this little bubble 

[00:35:00] Alyssa: mm-hmm.

[00:35:01] Jessica: And I've kind of like discovered it and I feel like I have like treasure in my backyard. Yeah, sure. The world. Um, but so that's to preface the, we were talking about the, um, the r in the care. Yeah. So after we had all these discussions and we made this agreement together, right. Because this was, this was the idea was that, that she also had some agency Yeah.

[00:35:26] That she, it was very much about us being equal. This is also a very Danish approach. This thing about seeing your child as competent, seeing, giving, learning how to trust your child. 

[00:35:36] Alyssa: Um, talking about it just feels like respect for another human. For me, it's like such a basic like, oh my gosh, yeah. This is something that is, I will die on this hill with you.

[00:35:48] It's, it's 

[00:35:48] Jessica: such basic, but this is, this was one of the really big paradigm shifts for me. 

[00:35:54] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:56] Jessica: Coming from with my American hat on to the Danish approach, which is so respect based. 

[00:36:02] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:03] Jessica: And wow. Um, realizing how much of the way we approach kids and like I have to keep myself in check. Yeah, sure.

[00:36:12] Because of course we have our default settings and we are programmed by our culture, 

[00:36:15] Alyssa: and we grew up a lot of us here in the states. With the idea that respect is only from the bottom up and that it's compliance actually. And that's not how I see respect. So I think when, when you're saying like the Danish culture is so respect based, that it's not what we would traditionally align with respect here in the States.

[00:36:41] Like being respectful here often means you're quiet. It's, you respect upward, not downward. And that it's not a, we respect each other as humans. 

[00:36:54] Jessica: A hundred percent. It's funny. Um, so one of the parents that did these, these, these, the cards by the way, I'll just show you. 

[00:37:00] Alyssa: Oh, sweet. I wanna get some. Yeah, I How old are your kids?

[00:37:04] Uh, they're one in four, but my next book, so I do research in Tiny, it's my master's is, is early ed, and my next book comes out in the fall, big kids, bigger Feelings, and it's the five to 12-year-old range. Oh. And so in doing that, we did a lot of research with schools and with families and whatever, and I just feel like it's a great resource to be able to bring into the space.

[00:37:22] Jessica: Yeah. It's for that age, it's, it's for the, for like five to 12, or I would say seven to 12. It's very, yeah, it's perfect. But, um, I was talking to a parent who had, who, who did these cards. She has a, a 9-year-old and 11-year-old. And, um, and she said when she first gave, when she first came with them, her son was like, he thought they were a box of rules, of course, because she was so negative about technology and she was always so, um, that when she realized, she said, okay, it's, it's not, I'm actually interested.

[00:37:52] I, I wanna talk to you. And so I interviewed him as well. The son. And uh, and he said, I, I mean, I'm so happy my mom is showing interest. Yeah. And she said she had to completely change her approach because, to be respect based, because he thought it was going to be a quiz or he thought it was gonna be some, but when, when he realized that it was much more of this exchange, this sort of flat exchange.

[00:38:19] Mm-hmm. And I asked him, I said, if there's something you could recommend to parents about how to approach this, what would you say? And he, and he said, maybe if they took a card, took one question and they said, teach me. And I thought, wow, that is the respect, 

[00:38:40] Alyssa: ah, for the adult to say, teach me. So the kid gets to teach the adult.

[00:38:45] Yes. I love that. Oh gosh. About your digital 

[00:38:48] Jessica: world because you really, I could really see it in his eyes. You could see it. He's like, we've always known more. 

[00:38:54] Alyssa: Yeah. Nobody's listening to us. Nobody's listening. Right. It's so real. 

[00:39:00] Jessica: So real. Yeah. Oh my God, I'm so, the boy was in his pajamas. He like crawled in on the call and I was like, oh my God, I wanna use this.

[00:39:06] Alyssa: Yeah. Um, 

[00:39:07] Jessica: yeah, it was, it really, it touched me because it's, it's exactly, particularly in the digital world, I think also when we're afraid, because we don't know, parents sometimes have the tendency to become even more controlling. 

[00:39:20] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:21] Jessica: And in a way, I think from what I've learned and what I've seen, we actually need to become more humble, a hundred percent more flat listening to what they have to teach us so that we have that trust so that if something bad happens or if they're afraid or we want to influence them, we, we've created that respect and trust not just been wardens and gatekeepers.

[00:39:49] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:39:50] Jessica: Yeah. 

[00:39:52] Alyssa: Oh, I love this. Just truly from the place of respect for humans, it, I said, this is a hill I'll die on. I, I've told this story before in here, but when I had Sage, my oldest, and he was like a fresh newborn. We were at like a gathering with folks and everyone wanted to like hold him, and I felt this resistance and I like, couldn't put my finger on it at the time.

[00:40:19] And then was chatting with a friend later and she was like, yeah, because he, that's not how he feels safe. Like my daughter for sure. She's like, she didn't care. She's fine to be passed around. She wants to like look at everybody in the space and for him, closeness to the people that he knows, which is not shocking now knowing him down the road and how he continues to show up in the world.

[00:40:41] And it, she was like, you just have such respect for kids that passing him around for other people's pleasure is not respectful. That's not how he feels safe in the world. And I was like, ah. Yeah. Like it felt disrespectful to him to be like, oh, but this person wants to hold a baby, even though that's not how you're gonna feel safe and comfortable.

[00:41:05] Right. And so we do, we just do this from such, from the beginning. We're, we're, this is why my book is Tiny Humans, big emotions because I want us to realize that they're still humans. Right? Yeah. Like they, they're 

[00:41:18] Jessica: always humans. Yes. And you know, and what I have seen here is from the time kids are babies, they are so respected.

[00:41:29] I love that children are seen as so incredibly competent and I. You know, and I was observing it for years, even before I had kids. I was, I was coming to Denmark and I was like, something is really different here. You know, it would be something I, my friend, her 2-year-old would come to the table. We would, I remember this, we were talking, you know, having, the adults were talking, right?

[00:41:50] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:50] Jessica: And the 2-year-old came up and interrupted her, you know, not, and I, and I thought like, oh, okay, this is when you say, shh, don't interrupt. But, you know, she turned and, and just communicated. It's just a silly example, but of this idea of like, it's real. When you give respect from when they're very young, it just comes back.

[00:42:15] Yeah. Actually, they're better behaved. They're happier. You are happier. Like it's, it's this cycle that comes back. 

[00:42:24] Alyssa: Yes. I. We recently had friends live with us for a month, and they both work in the early education, like parenting space, and they don't have kids. And there was one night where we were just like hanging out and kids were playing.

[00:42:43] And my friend Clem, uh, Clementine said, I, one of the things I've noticed in being here is that the kids are a part of the family. And I was like, what do you mean the kids are a part? Like of course they're a part of the family. And she said exactly this. She was like. When they have a need or they whatever, she's like, they're so often where I'm in a group of friends of mine who are parents and a kid's asking for something over and over and over, and no one pauses to be like, Hey, I hear you.

[00:43:10] Like what's going on? And she was like, you don't immediately stop what you're doing in a rush to them as if everything's an emergency, but you'll just pause and be like, yep, I hear you bud. You can come on in here. I'm gonna finish putting this on the stove and I'll come check out what's happening, whatever, that they're included, that they're a part of our family dynamic and community.

[00:43:30] And I guess it was something that for me is like a, yeah, it just comes back to respect again, I'm gonna die on this hill and. I have now that she mentioned that, started to notice it in other spaces in a way that I hadn't, and find myself like in conversation with somebody. And if they're not pausing to attend to a kid who's asking for something, I do it.

[00:43:52] I'm like, just a second and I'll turn into it. Yeah. And now that it's been brought to my attention more, I'm like, oh yeah, this, this is, it just feels disrespectful of like, there's a time and space for you to talk and it's not right now. 

[00:44:08] Jessica: And you know what I think, I think also just from the cultural perspective, so this is one of those things that I, you know, I talk about cultural default settings.

[00:44:17] So there's things that are also programmed into us, not just from our parents, but from how we grew up. And so this maybe is our belief, belief about education, you know, and again, America's huge. So you don't, there's not really an American way. Denmark is very small. Yeah. Um, but I think there is something about this, like, I win culture.

[00:44:36] Mm. And, and the sort of more authoritarian style culture and this more that kids should obey me and kids. This is very much also coming from our culture. 

[00:44:46] Alyssa: Yes, yes, yes. Power is something you're striving for. Yes. Power control. Yeah. Absolutely. 

[00:44:53] Jessica: Yep. And I think if we could take off those, I would say like take off your cultural glasses and try on a different pair and see the effects of when you have that really respect based, you still have clear boundaries, but you treat others with.

[00:45:11] And when you see the results of that, if you look through other cultural lenses, like it's hard to unsee it. 

[00:45:18] Alyssa: Yeah, 

[00:45:19] Jessica: sure. And then it just becomes like, it's an awareness of oh, that's how I'm programmed. I can change that. 

[00:45:25] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:26] Jessica: I'm getting that from this is just because like maybe this is around me and my society.

[00:45:31] If my child doesn’t doesn't wanna eat their peas. I don't need to make them eat their peace. And also in front of my mom or in front of, to prove to somebody else. Like, we have a different thing going on. Yes, we have a different agreement on what respect is. And now that my kids are teens, I can honestly say like this approach.

[00:45:52] So for Danish parents, if their kids fear them, that's sort of like the worst. Yeah. Because they don't feel that real power is coming from having them fear you. It's much better. They don't think about power anyway. It's like it's much better if your child respects you. 

[00:46:09] Alyssa: Yes. And again, respect in the way of.

[00:46:14] Not a compliance obedience. Right. I, I think that's something too that I think a lot of parents don't see fear as fear that like, it's seen as, it's seen as respect when a kid is actually afraid to make a mistake, to say the wrong thing, to not say thank you when they get that present, because then they're gonna lose something or have it taken away to not say sorry to not that it's, we're seeing compliance and obedience and I think a lot of people don't recognize that that's fear, not respect, that they're not saying, I'm showing up this way because I have respect for the boundaries of the humans around me or whatever.

[00:46:54] That they're showing up this way because they're afraid not to. 

[00:46:58] Jessica: Yeah. No, it's, um, I mean, I'm, I'm totally agree with you. Like I always say, teach respect, be respectful and it, and you will be respected. And, and the place that I see it a lot here is, is when you see parents with teenagers. Yeah. In all of those years of raising them, treating them like a human being and not someone that had to obey them, you know, you don't see these, these, these like power struggles.

[00:47:23] Yeah, power struggles. Yeah. Um, I mean, of course I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but, but, uh, it like, wow. It, I think actually another thing that had inspired me way before I had kids was literally watching the toddlers here and the teenagers Uhhuh. Sure. Because I was like, okay, first of all, what's going on with the toddlers?

[00:47:48] Alyssa: They're not being 

[00:47:49] Jessica: rushed and stressed, don't hear and yeah, crazy pronouns every left, right? Parents are speaking to them. When they come to the table, they're talking calmly. What's going on with the 

[00:48:00] Alyssa: toddlers? What's, what's in the food? Well, what's in the food is that those parents and families are nurtured and taken care of as well.

[00:48:08] They're not stressed about, do I have healthcare? Do I have access to education? Do I have access to supports I need? Are my basic needs met? And we live here in the States in a culture where so many humans are like, oh my gosh, can I afford food with the egg prices now? Right? Like they are so worried about their basic needs that that stress and anxiety comes out in the parenting and how we show up in the world.

[00:48:31] And so, of course, the kids experience it as well, I have to keep this job. I have to get to work. I cannot be late to this. And so I need you to get your stuff on and get out the door and get to childcare because I gotta. Make sure there's a roof over our head because there's no safety net here. 

[00:48:48] Jessica: Totally.

[00:48:48] No, I mean, I, I think also in terms of like changing your default settings mm-hmm. The first thing is, the only way, the only way you can even do that is to have a minimum amount of surplus. Yes. If you don't have surplus, guess what? Just like a computer, you go straight back to your default settings.

[00:49:08] Correct. You know what I mean? Like of course. Why Of course. That's what we do. Right. So, yeah. I mean, it's a luxury, I think to even to, to even be able to, to change your default settings. Such a part of the problem, you know? Yeah. And I know that it's like, yeah. I mean, I, I didn't live in Denmark for many, many years, so like it's, it's real and it's hard.

[00:49:34] Mm-hmm. And, and I mean, already it's super hard to be a parent, but then to be a parent Yeah. In the US and you know, you have to create. Your village or you have to create, I wish, I wish society knew more what it meant for a parent to have surplus. Mm-hmm. You know, just emotional surplus. 

[00:49:53] Alyssa: Totally. Or even like, I was just chatting with a friend whose husband is so stressed right now, and the only reason he, there's another job he could take, but it doesn't offer healthcare.

[00:50:06] It's a smaller company and the only reason he's staying at the job he has now is 'cause it offers healthcare. And it's like that's a systemic issue here, that this whole operational system within this family could have more ease, less anxiety, less stress that's gonna trickle down to the kids. We're gonna see that play out in the kids down the road.

[00:50:26] And it comes back to, we don't provide healthcare as a country here. Uh, it's all tied to your work. Like what? It's so many systemic things like that. The then, yeah, they don't have surplus. They don't have bandwidth and capacity to be able to try something else 'cause they're stuck in autopilot with no capacity left.

[00:50:48] And uh, it is, it's exhausting. It's exhausting to think about. I see our, some of our greatest work at SEED is working in school systems and looking at like, how can we shift things within statewide systems, within individual schools. And you know, the kindergarten teacher that I was like, abandon academics for him for the next month and focus on these things, she can only do that because we have her admin support.

[00:51:23] Right? Her admin isn't standing over her saying, you're not tenured. Are you gonna have a job next year if your kids aren't performing in this way, et cetera. And. Having access to cultural shifts in school systems, I think could take us a long way here. 

[00:51:38] Jessica: Huge. I think it would be huge. And I think that's probably more likely than other things happening.

[00:51:45] Like our country having healthcare and safety, social safety, like look who's running a lot of those things. Correct. Taking a turn of the 

[00:51:54] Alyssa: other way, I think right 

[00:51:55] Jessica: now. Um, but I think like, you know, maybe when more schools Yeah. Adopt, realize, I mean, just to tell you DD Danish kids don't get grades until like age 13.

[00:52:08] Mm-hmm. Think about that for a second. Yeah. No grades, very few tests. Mm-hmm. All the way up until age 13. 

[00:52:17] Alyssa: So what's their school day like? Hours kind of structure. 

[00:52:20] Jessica: So it's like from eight 30 to like two. Mm-hmm. And then they go to free play school. Okay. Um, so, so for the younger ones, it's earlier, it's like one, but then they have this free play school, which is where they just go to choose what, yeah.

[00:52:35] Alyssa: So the eight 30 to one or two is mostly 

[00:52:37] Jessica: structured. Um, yeah. So that's, that's the structured day. And then, so like as they get older, um, then they go from like, yeah, I think it's like eight 30 to, is it two 30? Yeah, two 30. And then they can go to something called the Club Uhhuh, which is basically free play, but for older kids.

[00:52:55] Cool. So it's like ping pong and, you know. Yeah. But again, it's still this belief that they need a lot of time to engage in different activities and I think activities. And so there's just not the same pressure. Yeah. Right. Because, because the, the school system is then just another pressure on the parents.

[00:53:15] Totally. Totally. Right. So like, I think if you can make any difference in the school system and, and, because again, like, I mean, what, what are we doing All of this. Testing in grad, what are, what are we doing for, it's so much stress and you know, all the research is coming out, like showing homework for Yeah.

[00:53:35] Is really that, um, you know, they saying, like I'm saying here is like it's who could not homework. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Take some time so you don't have to stay on the ride their butt to do their homework, but like, actually sit down and play a board game or just have some time where you're being like, you, you know what I'm saying?

[00:53:55] Um, structure, 

[00:53:55] Alyssa: just being, yeah. Where it's not like, okay, you can go be for 45 minutes and then you gotta do your homework. Uh, Jessica, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. I'm drinking your Kool-Aid over there. I want some of that Kool-Aid. Uh, I, I love this. I'm so excited you're putting another book out into the world, the Danish way every day.

[00:54:19] Super jazzed about that. Thank you for pouring your heart and and soul into this and helping serve others with different glasses we can try on. And, uh, an opportunity to do that. Where can folks find you, follow you, learn more about your work? 

[00:54:38] Jessica: Yeah, you can, um, go to the danish way.com, um, or at Jessica Joelle Alexander on Instagram.

[00:54:45] And then if you're interested in the, in the conversation cards, if your kid, your child is closer to digital freedom or you want to have a relationship that's more based on trust and not just banning, banning everything, um, then it's, it's raising digital citizens.com. Thank you 

[00:55:05] Alyssa: so much. 

Thank you so much for having me.

[00:55:07] Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:55:17] Rachel: So a Ukrainian couple that we are friends with are getting married next weekend or like this coming weekend. 

[00:55:25] Alyssa: Yeah. And a parent, I can't with you drinking that coffee this whole time. Now it's tea. My stomach's really upset. I dunno what's going on. Just careful when you set that down. 

[00:55:36] Rachel: It's gotta be stress.

[00:55:38] I don't know what it is, but things are not Yeah. Stress makes a lot of sense. Okay. So, um, we're invited to this wedding and I guess like culturally it's not seen as like rude to wear like white or ivory. Hmm. In fact, we, like, we've been asked to, like the guests have been asked to wear like ivory or um, cream, things like that.

[00:56:01] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:56:02] Rachel: So I had to get over feeling like I was being rude 'cause it's not so she's asking totally. Um, so anyway, my friend lent me. This like really dressy like pants suit 

[00:56:15] Alyssa: that I'm gonna be wearing. Oh my gosh. Fun. I was hoping you were gonna say pantsuit like a jumpsuit. 

[00:56:19] Rachel: Yeah. It's so cute. But I need to wear Spanx with it because, not for like my body shape, but for like modesty.

[00:56:25] There's no other way to wear underwear that won't show. And I don't wear thongs 'cause I hate them. Yeah, no, I, um, so I need to. Get Spanx or, or, or something similar, like a shorts type underwear. Um, yeah. Okay. To this also, I'm, I speak this, I'm wearing the highest heels of my life to the wedding. 'cause my friend also gave me heels.

[00:56:46] Rich. I'm so 

[00:56:46] Alyssa: excited for this. This is so offramp. 

[00:56:47] Rachel: They're actually stilettos. They're not even heels. They're like stilettos. Um, it's so often this outta the house. I, I, I love it. But she has like, she's so, okay, so this is my friend Alina, and she's so sweet. She's like, okay. All my main friends, like, this is your chance to like ditch the flannels and get really glamorous.

[00:57:06] She's like, please. Yeah. She's like, please don't look like a maner. It's like, what? She's not saying. Um, so yeah, I'm going, I'm going hard. 

[00:57:16] Alyssa: Okay. I have a few things. Yeah. First of all, um, I have ventured into the Spanx world since having kids. Mm. And I tried other brands first and I tried like a target, like off brand, whatever.

[00:57:28] Mm-hmm. And I have found my way to Spanx and I will say the brand name makes a difference here. 

[00:57:34] Rachel: Okay. Yeah. Uh, 

[00:57:35] Alyssa: I also tried Nix 'cause I love the brand. I love the founder. I, I love, that's the like yellow zipper top suit I have, you know, like I love a lot of their stuff. And they ripped, they just like tore in the like thighs or up the butt, that's what it was.

[00:57:53] Mm. And like within like two layers. And they were so gen, they like just sent me another pair for free. They're like, don't worry about it. Um, but quality, that would totally happen to me too. Yeah. Yeah. I will say the like quality, sustainability, like longevity and frankly like contouring, which I'll take in this moment.

[00:58:13] It, Spanx is unmatched. Yeah. 

[00:58:15] Rachel: I'm gonna try it on tonight for Cody. Um, with the heels and stuff and so I'll have him take a picture. The heels are so just out of character for me. 

[00:58:26] Alyssa: I can't wait. Describe 'em to me real quick. They are like chunky or stiletto, stiletto. What? I didn't see that coming. Okay. And pointed around it.

[00:58:36] I wish I had them, um, pointed. Rachel, 

[00:58:40] Rachel: I'm obsessed with this right now. Wait, hold on. I have to grab them. I know we're recording, but they're literally like right there. Hang on. Yeah. Go.

[00:58:50] So they're definitely gonna hurt, but, um, there's not like dancing at this wedding. So I think like I can, oh my gosh. 

[00:58:57] Alyssa: Fun. Right? So fun also as a human who used to wear heels a lot and now just doesn't. Um, but then has like, I've recently like dabbled a little bit where I'm like, oh, I'll wear it for like this part of the presentation or whatever, like this presentation.

[00:59:15] Mm-hmm. But not all day. What I have found is that I don't put my heels on until the very last minute, until I have Sure. And second of all. The minute that I take them off, they're not going back on. Mm-hmm. So if I'm like, oh, let's give my foot a break. Nope. Mm-hmm. That's it. It ends there. Yeah. It's like my body starts to realize how horrible this has been and is like attacking itself.

[00:59:42] And so those are my only words of advice. 

[00:59:45] Rachel: Oh. It's gonna be torture. I'm gonna, so I have like super thin, comfortable, like blister tape, patches that I use when I'm hiking. Yeah. And I am going to prophylactically, wear blister tape. Tape up your 

[01:00:01] Alyssa: feet. 

[01:00:02] Rachel: Yeah. That's smart. Smart. Because my feet are not like used to heels.

[01:00:06] So. 

[01:00:07] Alyssa: Yeah. Do you, when we get to like mid thirties and beyond, are there like Dr. SHO's patches we can like put into heels that help us? I don't 

[01:00:16] Rachel: know. I just tried to listen to what my friend Janelle says. She's very glamorous and she always looks super put together and she was like, yeah, try these. Just wear these heels to the wedding.

[01:00:26] Like it'll look really nice and whatever. Wait, I'm just having like an epiphany. So we've been having like some personal stress in our family and I've been feeling like super panicky and nauseous and just like gross. And I was thinking like there was a period in my life where I literally felt like this all the time.

[01:00:45] You lived that way. Yeah. And now it's like so foreign that I'm like, whoa. Like I feel like garbage. Like what is happening? And it, I literally used to just exist like this. 

[01:00:58] Alyssa: Isn't it wild? It's like when I. I did a time where I drank no alcohol and then I, we were like hanging out with friends and I had two drinks and it was my, like, first time drinking in a, a while.

[01:01:13] Mm-hmm. And I slept terribly. I woke up the next day, it was just like, oh, so groggy and slow. And I was like, why am I so tired? I actually had like, been in bed for longer than usual and just not sleeping great. Yeah. Right. And I was like, oh, right, like this. Now all this to say, I still enjoy a beverage here and there, but it has for sure shifted for me.

[01:01:39] Mm-hmm. Where I'm like, yeah, I, I just, I know I, I said to Zach the other day, I was like, I could see a world in which at some point I'm like, yeah, booze isn't for me anymore. Like it is there. I just, it's, it's something I enjoy. Yeah. The taste of like the, like an old fashioned, you know, you can't relate 'cause you don't drink.

[01:02:00] I drank for a long time. I just, yes, but you like high school and like college drank, which is different than like adult drinking where I'm drinking. 'cause I enjoy the taste of something. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Yes. And now it's like, I love the taste of an old fashioned, I've also tried like non-alcoholic options for wines that I like and stuff.

[01:02:21] And it just, I haven't found something that compares. 

[01:02:24] Rachel: I feel like you have to do a ton of like, troubleshooting to find, I mean, I 

[01:02:29] Alyssa: did a ton to get here, I guess from the booze world. So probably need to pour a little more energy into it for the non booze world. I mean 

[01:02:37] Rachel: also like maybe you just, you have one on like very occasionally.

[01:02:42] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? I think that's realistically what it'll end up being is just like, I'm gonna let myself enjoy that sometimes. Mm-hmm. And it's just not a part of our regular routine. Um, I've already shifted to the, like, it's not a part of our regular routine. Because it does, it becomes routine where it's like, oh yeah.

[01:03:00] Especially summertime for me, when it's nice out and it's like, oh yeah, crack open a cider or whatever, and we're gonna grill and hang in the backyard with the kids. And I was like, I don't need that. It just don't, I'm gonna crack open a seltzer. Yeah. Yeah, totally. 

[01:03:14] Rachel: I also like, if I'm gonna, I mean, of course I haven't had a drink socially in so long, but when I'm like being social and I want to like, share time with people and whatever, and, and enjoy something that tastes good for me, I really want it to be like a food, not a drink even.

[01:03:29] Like, ah, even outside of alcohol. Like I don't wanna have like a, a sugary drink drinker. Like Nora right now is really into boba and like, I like the flavor of it, but if I'm going to like, indulge in something, I really prefer it to be something that I'm like chewing and eating. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally.

[01:03:46] Drinking, totally. Just a beverage doesn't like give me that same dopamine experience as like a, and I'm the opposite food. Yeah. I'm the opposite. We have such different. Experiences with eating and food anyway. Like, that's not true. 

[01:04:00] Alyssa: I literally, I, Gabby and I were just talking about this, uh, she and I are the same on this, where I was like, I just wish there was a pill we could take that would give us the nutrients we need, and I would not have to eat food because I don't care about it.

[01:04:11] It becomes a thing where I'm like, all right, I have to, I have to eat lunch today and like now I have to think about it and put together a lunch and be intentional, and like actually eating food brings me almost no joy. Like, it's very rare that I'm like, oh man, a lobster roll. I love a good lobster roll.

[01:04:33] Rachel: That's about it. Okay. So I'm like the polar opposite of you. Also, I've recently had this like weird, like five day obsession with Fritos and scoops, not the originals. Hmm. I don't know what happened. I, we had them on vacation and I was like, yeah, I like Fritos. Like I'll have a handful of these. It became like I literally had to force myself to eat other things.

[01:05:00] Like I wasn't wanting ice cream usually. Like beach and ice cream are like, yeah. Totally synonymous for me. Like I, I think I had ice cream once the 10 days we were there, but you know, that I was hitting up that bag of Fritos, like it was my job. Okay, so random. It was, you are an ice cream lover on vacation.

[01:05:18] I know. I don't know what, like, I don't know if I was sweating a lot and my body was like, these are salty. Let's keep it coming. Like, I don't know what was happening, but I was in a relationship with Fritos. 

[01:05:29] Alyssa: I love this for you. You know what I'm into right now? Min Nina chips. Uh, in fact, oh, bougie Doritos.

[01:05:35] We should be, we should be sponsored by them. So they have bougie Doritos, but I like the jalapeno agave. Yes. And then if you pair it with, uh, the salsa grande, like sour cream based dip, uh, is it cavo? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it, I mean, a good fer eating my Cabot dip. But I am obsessed with that combo.

[01:06:00] That is, that is, that is a food that I do really enjoy right now. 

[01:06:04] Rachel: But like you being like, oh yeah, I forget to eat. And then I'm like, oh, I have to eat lunch. That's never for me. Sometimes I feel annoyed that I have to prepare food for myself. Like I'm like, oh, I really wish somebody could just do this for me.

[01:06:13] But never am I like, oh, forgot to eat. No. I'm 

[01:06:17] Alyssa: literally always 

[01:06:18] Rachel: like, Hmm, what am I gonna be eating next? 

[01:06:21] Alyssa: I mean, I, if I do forget to eat, my body will naturally start to like find snacks. 'cause it gets hunky, but I'm not, oh, weird about food. You don't like starving strange. But then it'll just like snack on whatever is most conveniently available.

[01:06:37] But I'm not like thinking about food, right? Like this is a shift in my mother-in-law, we joke about this, that we will like start a hang and she's like. What are we gonna have for dinner or like planning the next dinners to come. And she grew up in a family that was like really focused around food, where like they talked about food a lot.

[01:06:57] A lot of their family hangs happened around food. Her mom loved to cook. She spent a lot of time in the kitchen with her mom. Like food is a big thing. It's so the opposite for me that I'm like, yeah, I don't know. Or care really. Whatever we have is great. 

[01:07:10] Rachel: Yep. Well, I live with a human who's always like, what's the, what's the next meal?

[01:07:15] What are we eating? Yeah. Do you wanna go out to eat? Are we getting takeout? Are we cooking? Like, what are we doing? You know, 

[01:07:21] Alyssa: partially 'cause you 

[01:07:22] Rachel: just can't stop moving. Never stops moving and never stops eating.

[01:07:28] Alyssa: I love it. 

[01:07:30] Rachel: Oh man. Who are we chatting about here today? Okay, so this is Jessica Joelle Alexander. 

[01:07:36] Alyssa: Oh yeah. Okay. Are you obsessed with her? 

[01:07:39] Rachel: I honestly, do you wanna move to Denmark with me? That's, that's what actually came out of it. Like, I was just feeling sad about my current location. 

[01:07:48] Alyssa: Same, it's the same, uh, that I just, like, every time I was listening I was like, wait, why don't we live in Austria?

[01:07:56] Because I have friends and like I speak German and like, it just was like, we could actually just live in Austria and have way more of this. 

[01:08:05] Rachel: I know as the norm. I think that's like, that is what's so, feels so frustrating and disheartening to me. Is that like our work is still counter-cultural here. Yes.

[01:08:20] And it's just not always that and just 

[01:08:22] Alyssa: like lifestyle, right. That like when I share about my mother-in-law who like we chose to move to Burlington, Vermont to be right next to my mother-in-law to raise kids with her because I knew for myself, I lived in New York City, I'd lived in Boston. I was like, it's not the lifestyle I want.

[01:08:41] We both left jobs that don't exist here. We both had to do career pivots. I started seed when we moved here. 

[01:08:48] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[01:08:49] Alyssa: And there were no architecture positions available for Zach when we moved up here. We both had career pivots to do this because I knew for myself, I'm not meant to raise kids alone. Like I need family to call on.

[01:09:04] I'm also. I don't wanna have a paid village as all of my village. Mm-hmm. Right. Like that. We couldn't afford it. I worked in early childhood as a teacher, like it just was not on the affordability scale for us. And when I share things about my mother-in-law and how much she's involved in our life and whatnot, I will get comments from people like, oh, that must be so nice.

[01:09:29] Like, yada yada. I'm like, gosh, we've done this. We have done this where we've created it to be that you are lucky to have a village. Mm-hmm. To have people to lean on, to raise your kids with. And when I listen to her talk, I'm just like, it sounds so lovely and communal. I know we have 

[01:09:49] Rachel: this like obsession with individualism here.

[01:09:54] Mm-hmm. And I feel really grateful because I feel like. The community that we have now with our children, um, and their friends and the parents of their friends. That idea of responsible togetherness Yeah. Is very much a part of our school community, which has then become our friend community, where like it's just assumed that we're gonna just do things for each other together.

[01:10:23] So like if we're all getting together, everybody's bringing food to share with everybody, or like as the hang is coming to a close, everybody's like helping whoever hosted kind of like tidy up and totally looking around and seeing what destruction happened from all of the kids and just doing that kind of stuff together.

[01:10:41] Or like, it's not uncommon for. Me to get a text. It's like, Hey, can so-and-so come over after school today? I need to take my other kid to the doctor. Or I have a work meeting or whatever. And that's reciprocal. And it's really nice to not feel like for many years of parenthood Cody and I kind of felt like we were on an island.

[01:11:01] Yeah. And it's nice to not 

[01:11:03] Alyssa: feel that way. Totally. And I'm like, this is what it's supposed to be like. Right. Actually, our next door neighbor, we just started, we're like starting now. We're gonna do, we call it the compound. Our, like we have basically two shared backyards that the kids can go back and forth between and whatever, but we're doing shared meals twice a week where like one night a week we are making the food and they're off.

[01:11:31] And one night a week they're making the food and we're off. And we just plan ahead with like people's schedules of like, what are the best nights this week to do that? And yeah, I was like, oh, here it is. Like Zach's gonna be at the office late and I have something going on. Can you do Tuesday dinner or whatever.

[01:11:47] And she's like, yep. On it. It's little things like that that add up where we just get that space. 

[01:11:55] Rachel: Yeah. And it, it, living in community in that way should be the norm. It's not 

[01:12:00] Alyssa: here. It really should be. This has been a low key obsession of mine lately, is like, how do I just build out the compound that I want?

[01:12:12] And Zach asked me the other day, he is like, if you had millions of dollars, like if we were rich, where would you wanna live? What would you want? Because I, I complain about the winter and spring here all the time and I was like, bye. I hate this answer for myself. 'cause it means I just gotta accept the winter.

[01:12:31] But I would live on a compound with family and I know that means in the Northeast. Mm-hmm. I was like, I mean, if we had tons of money, I'd also have a nice old beach house somewhere we can go to and like get outta dodge more frequently. But that's what luxury looks like to me, is being able to live in walking distance and co-parenting, aging distance with the humans.

[01:12:58] I want to do life with who I wanna raise kids with, who I, whose kids I want to be a part of their life too. You know, like mm-hmm. That, that is what it looks like to me. And that was like doing this interview. I just kept coming back to this is achievable here. If I can slow down and prioritize the right things.

[01:13:29] Mm-hmm. For me and for me, that's not a more, more, more, it's not a warmer weather. Which sometimes I feel a pull to. Like, I mean when we go to Florida in February, I'm like, let's buy a house here. What are we doing up there? But it's, I wouldn't be happy with that if I didn't have the village totally to do life with.

[01:13:50] Totally. 

[01:13:50] Rachel: Yeah. I feel the same. The other thing that kind of stood out for me was that Danish parents really don't want their kids to fear them. And yes, I think a lot of us parents would also say they don't want their kids to fear them, but at the same time, conflate respect with what is actually fear-based obedience, um, or compliance.

[01:14:14] Alyssa: A hundred percent. In fact, I have like an anecdote that just happened this weekend where we are seeing some fun 4-year-old behavior. Mm-hmm. Right. Of like spitting and I. Sometimes throwing things, although not typically more like rude. I'm never gonna love you. I'm never gonna play with Mila. I don't wanna be around her ever again in my whole life.

[01:14:40] Mm-hmm. Everything is never in my whole life, um, right now. And just with like digs at people. Yeah. Right. Plus the spitting. Plus yesterday, he like twice in like a 30 minute span, chucked something toward me. Mm. One almost hit my face. Uh, and last night we were chatting, Zach and I, he was like, what do we do?

[01:15:04] And I said, well, I can tell you what I did in those moments and why I did what I did. Mm-hmm. When he threw something, I said, oh, I won't let you throw things. I will hold your hands if it's too hard for you to stop right now. And then he started spitting toward me and yelling mean things at his sister. I said, I'm gonna carry your body, or you can walk upstairs to your room.

[01:15:27] I'm gonna come up with you. We're gonna go to a space where we can be safe together and everyone else can be safe. Mm-hmm. And he's screaming at me. No, no, no. And then eventually when I picked up his body, he's yelling that I'm hurting him and I'm hitting him, which is obviously not true in the moment.

[01:15:47] Mm-hmm. And I carried him into his room and he slammed the door shut. And then it's a whole lot of never, like, you're never gonna be my mom. Like mm-hmm. Just never. It's a lot of, never. Mm-hmm. And I just sat down against the wall in his bedroom and put my body in a non-threatening position and just modulated my tone and said, Hey bud, I'm gonna stay with you.

[01:16:13] You're not in trouble. I'm gonna keep us both safe. And he picked something up and I said, oh, if you're gonna throw that, I'm gonna hold your hands. Won't let you hurt our bodies. I told Zach the things that I was focused on in that moment were my body language, my tone, and just safety. That right now he's not in a brain or a body that can think about all the things he knows in a regulated state.

[01:16:40] Mm-hmm. So I'm not like it. My whole work is not getting mad at him in that moment really. And sitting there and eventually he's like, I'm leaving then 'cause he is telling me to get out of his room. Hmm. And I said, you're not in trouble. I'm gonna stay with you. I have learned about him that he can feel shame so easily.

[01:17:05] And so if I really leave. He internalizes a lot of it. Mm-hmm. If I talk, it's very hard for him, so I have to like just be mm-hmm. As he's losing it. And then he stormed out of the room and he laid at the top of the stairs. And one of the things I wanted to do yesterday was switch out the books downstairs.

[01:17:26] And so I was going through the bookshelf in his room to grab some, and I didn't realize he was at the top of the stairs. And I came out of his room and he was laying there and he was like, go away, you can't be here. And I said, oh, I was just grabbing some books. I was gonna bring some downstairs and read.

[01:17:42] I can read one up here if you're interested. And he was like, no, go away. You can't, those are my books. You can't take them. I said, I'm just gonna bring 'em downstairs and switch them out. Uh, I love you buddy. You can read with me if you want. Mm-hmm. And I walked downstairs as he was screaming at me, and I sat down on the nugget.

[01:17:59] Which is like he can through the stairs, see me if he chooses to come down. Mm-hmm. A few steps. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I started reading and Mila came over and sat there, and then he made his way down the stairs and was listening. And then by the end of the book, I would like pause for certain words that I know he knows.

[01:18:16] And he would fill in the word and I was like, okay, we're co-regulating here. Mm-hmm. I'm just reading a book. And then later, like an hour later when he was eating food and sitting by himself at the table and I was in the kitchen doing dishes and Mila and Zach were upstairs for Tubby time and things were chill.

[01:18:34] I just said, Hey bud, I love you so much and you know what I know about you. I know that you're so kind. And when your body feels overwhelmed or frustrated, you're still learning how to be kind in those moments. It is our expectation in our family. That we're gonna be kind to each other. And if you're having a hard time being kind or being safe with your body, I'm always gonna help you.

[01:19:03] Mm-hmm. And that's it. And like I'm going to continue to remove him from situations or remove her from being around him. If he's throwing things, if he's hitting, I'm not gonna engage in conversation when he's hitting or screaming at me or spitting. I'm gonna let him know that you're with you. I'm gonna help your body feel calm.

[01:19:25] I'm not engaging in it. Mm-hmm. I'm not like, we ought be kind bud. Or let me, I'm just in the triangle of growth. Supporting sensory regulation first. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think what's hard is it feels in that moment like we're condoning behavior. 

[01:19:42] Rachel: Yeah. I think it's so hard too, to acknowledge that we don't have control over what they do.

[01:19:52] Like one thing that will come up for Cody is he'll be like, I don't know what to do. She's so out of control. Mm-hmm. When Nora's having a hard time, I'm like, yes. She's actually never under our control. We can control how we respond to her and what boundaries we set with her. 

[01:20:10] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:20:12] Rachel: But like if she's mad, she might rage and we can't actually stop that from happening.

[01:20:19] Alyssa: Yeah. And she does it 'cause we're the safe people. And that's why I said to Zach, I was like, what we keep hearing when Sage is out of our presence, when he's like at a friend's house or he is playing in a group or whatever is how kind and thoughtful he is. I watch him when I'm out of the room and it's him and Mila and I'm like doing dishes and I hear him and I peek in and he's so kind to her.

[01:20:40] Or like the neighbor's kid, he it five minutes after he was raging and threw something at me yesterday before I got him inside. He then paused and was like helping our neighbor who has a two, almost 2-year-old, like with something and like speaking to her in like a sweet voice and whatever. And I was like, yeah, this is how he shows up with us as his safe people.

[01:21:04] And I would much rather that I get this part of him and the rest of the world gets a more, maybe it's masked, but kinder version of him. Mm-hmm. They can have the best and I'll take the rest. Right. Like that is okay with me. And if, if this was happening out in the world too. Right. If he didn't have skills for navigating conflict with other humans, if he didn't have regulation skills outside of the household, I would be really focused on that.

[01:21:36] But knowing that he does, I'm like, yeah, you can melt down with me. Yeah. Same with Nora. Yes, exactly. And so I'm just like, yeah, yeah. I can't. Control you. And ultimately I wanna be in relationship with you. And I have seen what it looks like when there's conditional love or when there is a focus on trying to control a kid's behavior, the way they talk or speak to you or whatever.

[01:22:09] And what it often means is they just start to hide parts of themselves from you. And that's not what I want in my parent child relationship. And it means being in the messy, and I think it's not a permissive of like, yeah, you can just hit me or throw things at me. Like, no, I'm still gonna hold those boundaries or how you talk to me.

[01:22:29] I'm not gonna engage in conversation like this. And I'll love you and I'll be here with you and I'll still pop over and give you a hug. You can sit in my lap when you're ready. I'll read you that book when you're screaming rude things at me, I'm not engaging in conversation. Mm-hmm. 

[01:22:48] Rachel: No, it's not like I'm gonna be a doormat and you can do whatever you want because you're mad.

[01:22:53] But for me, in those moments, I'm trying to think in terms of like what will connect us and what will disconnect us, and I'm trying not to do things that will disconnect us. Mm-hmm. I mean, I've shared on here before that sometimes holding boundaries around how I expect her to speak to me or treat me means that like I am taking space and going in my room and she's repeatedly slamming the door, so then I'm holding it and letting her know I won't let her do that.

[01:23:27] And so it's certainly not like an anything goes. Situation. Yeah, more that like I don't want my reaction in those moments to be things that ultimately fracture our relationship or lead to her hiding things from me or hiding parts of herself from me. And it's really hard in the moment to think about that when you have a kid just screaming rude crap at you.

[01:23:51] Alyssa: It's so hard to think about that in the moment. Another thing that popped up, I had recently asked Sage. It was like a thing that happened and it led to me asking him the question, Sage, is there anything that you could do or a choice that you could make where you would be in trouble if you told me? And he was like, what's in trouble?

[01:24:16] I was like, yeah, like you're, I would be mad at you or you wouldn't be able to have something, or that I would take something away, that you would get punished for it. And he was like, oh, like I would go to jail. It's like, um, I was like, hilarious. That is only reference for being in trouble at punishment.

[01:24:34] Going to jail. Going to jail. Um, and I was like, yeah, is there anything that you could do where I would be really mad at you? And he said, no. Is there something? And I, he is like, did I miss something? Like should I know this? And I was like, no. I was just curious if you felt like there was anything. And I said, for me, no, there's nothing you can do where I'm gonna be mad at you.

[01:25:02] Because I know that you're really kind. And if it's hard for you to make a kind choice in the moment, that just lets me know that you need help with something. Mm-hmm. That you're having a hard time and I can help you. Uh, and sometimes I may feel frustrated or I may feel disappointed about something and we can work through that.

[01:25:21] There's nothing you could tell me that we couldn't figure something out. And he goes, yeah. And like went off and played and I was like, man. Like, duh. Yeah. And I was like 4-year-old me, Alyssa would've been like, yeah, here's all the things I can't tell you. Here's all the ways I'd be in trouble. And it was one of those moments where I was like, okay, we're already, we're shifting some things already.

[01:25:43] Yeah. 

[01:25:43] Rachel: And that, that like mutual respect seems embedded in Danish parenting in a way that Yes. It's just not here. 

[01:25:52] Alyssa: There's so much fear here. Yeah. I don't know if it was in this episode that I shared this, but at one point we were hanging out when Clem and Max from Kira's Parenting were living with us and we were hanging out the adults and the kids and whatever kids were playing.

[01:26:07] And Sie was like asking for my attention. And I paused an adult conversation and was like, Hey bud, yeah, I wanna listen to you. I'm gonna listen to Clem finish this story and then I'm gonna give you my attention. And when I came back to her, she was like. One thing that I have noticed so much in this household that I love is that you don't ignore the kids.

[01:26:30] That it doesn't mean in that moment he just gets your attention, but you acknowledge him and then you do go back to him where you're like, after I'm done finishing this, you'll go and play with him again. He's a part of the community here. Mm-hmm. Right? Like they're a part of our family unit. And I think so often culturally here it is like kids are seen as an inconvenience.

[01:26:56] Rachel: Yeah. Or like it there, it's that fear base of like, well, if I acknowledge that, that they're gonna think it's fine forever forevermore to come interrupt conversation adults. That's absurd. Okay. Adults, we do that as adults all the time. 100%. And like is my goal for my kids to eventually be like, excuse me, mom.

[01:27:13] Mm-hmm. Which like now is happening 'cause they're older. But when I was dealing with my toddlers, yeah. My ultimate goal is for 'em to be like, excuse me, mom and me to be like, yeah, just one minute and I'll be right with you. 

[01:27:23] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:27:24] Rachel: Right. And that back and forth. 'cause that's how I would speak to an adult.

[01:27:27] Alyssa: Yeah. It's a, it's just a respect for them as humans. People, they are people that exist. Yeah. The last thing I wanna touch on here that really stuck out for me was like that academic piece and what they learned in the school system and how that works. There's like a really popular account toddlers can read or something like that, I think it's called.

[01:27:49] And the dude who runs it seems super kind and Yeah, for sure. I'm sure he sees success in teaching young children how to read and cool. I kept finding myself like triggered by this account. Mm-hmm. And I was like, what is it? Somebody had brought it to my attention and they were like. Oh, do you know this?

[01:28:11] And I started checking it out and I was like, what I realized is that we have a finite amount of time for interactions, right? And so the kids get a finite amount of my time every day that it isn't forever. You know, even if I was not working, we're on vacation, we're spending all day together. They're still, it's a finite amount of time where we are awake and playing and engaging and whatever.

[01:28:36] And there are so many foundational parts of being a human that I wanna foster and support before placing that expectation on parents that this is something we should be working on. Now I have two humans who are really interested in letters and letter sounds and words, and. I am not like, well, we're never talking about letters and we're never talking about words.

[01:29:05] Right? Like Sie the other night in his bath was talking about something and he spelled a word and we were like, oh. And I was like, how did you know that? And he was like, it was, um, sat was the first one, I think he did. And he was like, well, SAT. And we're like, yeah, correct. But like how You're not wrong, right?

[01:29:29] He's like, these are the letter sounds, mom. This is what I, and then we went on to do like games with it of like, okay, what if I change the S to a P? Now, what's that word? And he could read it and we've never sat down and like done reading stuff. Sure. Right. He's been very interested in letter sounds and his brain retains them and like can connect them.

[01:29:52] And now Mila, I think just by proxy of him engaging in this is like interested in, she also just wants to talk, so she's like, how do I say all the 

[01:30:00] Rachel: sounds? Yes. Literally any sound is fine. 

[01:30:02] Alyssa: Correct. Um, and so I'm not like, well I'm gonna avoid all reading because he doesn't need to learn to read yet. Um, it's like emergent curriculum for me where I'm like, I'll follow his interest here.

[01:30:14] It's child 

[01:30:14] Rachel: led, it's fine. 

[01:30:16] Alyssa: Yes. But I don't want parents in a world where there's so much that we could focus on that's gonna be foundational to how a child shows up in the world to feel like, oh my gosh, I have to make sure that I'm doing this with them too. Totally. I don't want it to be a pressure. And the reality is it's only going to be something available for.

[01:30:36] Folks with enough privilege also either have somebody else doing it with them or the time privilege. 

[01:30:42] Rachel: I mean, the other part of this is like even, you know, North's in fifth grade and I'm still like, ugh, why is so much time spent on academics? Like, I don't 

[01:30:49] Alyssa: mm-hmm. 

[01:30:50] Rachel: Really care if you know that. Like the thing about ancient Rome, I really care more about like what's going on when there's like a conflict in your class or what's going on when hundred percent somebody's left out.

[01:31:02] You feel embarrassed. Yeah. Yes. Like, I'm just like, ugh. I, yeah. I feel like, and it's ironic too, right, because we're obsessed with test scores and we are obsessed with academics in such a boring and terrible way. And other countries who seem to prioritize it less, have way better. Scores than us. Like, I, I don't know.

[01:31:25] It's just, 

[01:31:27] Alyssa: yeah. It's as if like focusing heavily on academics isn't maybe the answer from a young age. Uh, yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. And so like, that was something that jumped out to me was about like the schooling and the pressure and like how she shared, like her children's experience when they came back to the States and they were living here versus then when they went back and just had more success when that pressure was removed.

[01:31:51] Rachel: Yeah. And like the confidence that Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's so multifaceted. 

[01:31:56] Alyssa: Um, so multifaceted. Oh, well I was like, this is a book that Zach and I are reading together next where I was like, I want you to read this with me and for us to have discussions. I love doing that. It's usually frankly led by me saying like, will you listen to this podcast episode where you read this book with me and we can talk about it and uh, whatever.

[01:32:20] I'm fine to drive that for now. Yeah. But it opens up conversations. I. For us on topics where I'm like, I wanna make sure we're on the same page and we can kind of discuss this. I think folks should snag this book and if what I just shared is something that folks are interested about doing with their partners, we have tiny humans, big emotions available now and then coming soon we've got big kids, bigger feelings, which is available for pre-order.

[01:32:44] Now I love hearing when like partners or couples co-parents are doing it together, where they're both reading it and diving into like, what does this look like? What's this look like in our family culture or in our household? Um, and if you snag big kids, bigger feelings, head on over to our website at Seed andSo and snag the book guide that we have for you to navigate it and have like kind of reflection questions as you're going through it to think about what does this look like in your household and with your family.

[01:33:15] Uh, yeah. Love it. Thanks for doing this with me, Rach.

Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the ‘Gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.

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