Navigating Toddlerhood with Confidence with Dr. Cathryn Tobin

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I got to hang out with Dr. Cathryn to chat about some of my favorite humans. We got to dive into toddlers. Dr. Cathryn has over 35 years of experience as a pediatrician and mother of four, and the founder of Healthiest Baby with 1.2 million followers over on Instagram.

[00:00:21] Dr. Cathryn has dedicated her career to raising emotionally strong and happy kids. She's the author of three parenting books and the host of Toddlers Made Easy Podcast where she shares big hearted insights and strategies to simplify parenting. Dr. Cathryn has chosen to specialize in toddlers because this crucial, informative period is often misunderstood.

[00:00:44] Her mission is to demystify toddlerhood for parents everywhere, providing the tools and knowledge to navigate these years calmly and confidently. Check out her book. Toddlers Made Easy to dive deeper into this and. In the breakdown with Rach, I shared about a resource that is totally free for you right now and available.

[00:01:05] If you head to seedquiz.com, you're gonna answer some questions. You can take it for any age, human, baby, toddler, teenager, adult, and understand that unique nervous system more so maybe you and your partner see the world differently or move through the world differently. That's what happens in my household.

[00:01:24] My husband is a details person. He notices all the details of things. I am here like making piles of clutter. His nervous system is so overwhelmed by my piles and just wants them put away, even if they're not actually put away, like hidden in a closet for the love. This is all because of how our nervous systems work.

[00:01:44] You get to learn more about your unique nervous system, your kids' nervous systems, so that you know what's gonna be most supportive for them when it comes to regulation that it's not a one size fits all. What helps one kid in the moment is gonna be different than what helps another kid. Head on over to seed quiz.com to take our free questionnaire and learn more about your child's unique nervous system.

[00:02:09] Bonus points for learning more about yours too. All right, folks, let's dive in.

[00:02:18] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:02:35] Let's dive in together.

[00:02:40] Dr. Cathryn: We're in Toronto. Yeah. Okay. And I have four kids who are sweet. All adults now. And yeah, I have one amazing little grandchild. Sweet. And a big, huge golden doodle who 

[00:02:53] Alyssa: consumes a lot of my time. Okay. We are, I think we're gonna move into the golden doodle life. Yes. Uh, yes. I met a golden doodle recently. My son, who just turned four, is very just like, he's a tender, like gentle human and he loves dogs.

[00:03:11] They're very regulating for him. My husband and I also both grew up with dogs like we're dog people, like, all right. I think. We'll move into like getting a dog soon. And then we met a goldendoodle recently and I was like, this is it. I think this is 

[00:03:24] Dr. Cathryn: the dog. Well, I mean, I love my dog terribly. However, they are really, uh, he was really challenging in the first, ah, three, four years.

[00:03:35] Alyssa: Sure. Tell me more. Tell me what to expect here, Dr. Cathryn. Well, 

[00:03:39] Dr. Cathryn: they're so loving that there's no boundaries. Sort of like a toddler, isn't it? Sure. So he would just, you know, he would jump over couches to sit on somebody's lap. He still, he's 82 pounds and still sits on people's laps. Sure. A lot of nipping, a lot, a lot of nipping and loving and, but a lot, so much like a toddler.

[00:04:02] So much. I used to think of when, in those toddler years of a dog's life, it, it really reminded me of a toddler and a teenager at the same time. 

[00:04:11] Alyssa: That's so funny. I love that. Well, I love your work around toddlerhood. My master's is in early childhood and I like found my home in the infant toddler space.

[00:04:20] Like that's just where my heart was. I kept, I was teaching kindergarten and then in preschool and I was like, I wish I had these kids when they were younger. I wish I could have supported X, Y, and Z development. And then I kept going younger and younger and then just fell in love with them. Right now my daughter is 15 months and just in such a fun stage.

[00:04:39] Yes. And it is not without challenges, but I, I have found that we estimate what an infant and toddler is capable of and overestimate what a preschooler is capable of. 

[00:04:57] Dr. Cathryn: That sounds like a really good generalization. 

[00:05:00] Alyssa: Yeah. Thank you. 

[00:05:02] Dr. Cathryn: I agree with you. Yeah. 

[00:05:03] Alyssa: Yeah, I am. I'm curious 

[00:05:05] Dr. Cathryn: what. Drew you to the toddler years as a pediatrician, I look after, or I did look after all ages, but I found that there's something special about that time and also something super important and I was drawn to that time because I feel it's a really critical period for both mothers, well for parents as well as for the child.

[00:05:29] And I consider it a turning point and wanted to make sure that parents got off on a good start. 

[00:05:37] Alyssa: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think often when we don't have that foundation in the toddler years, that's possible. Then we go into those preschool years and we'll hear a lot of, and and beyond of like, oh, they're old enough to know better, or things like that when we didn't support those toddler years.

[00:05:53] It's funny you said that 

[00:05:54] Dr. Cathryn: because I'm just writing a post this morning, uh, using the term about knowing better. As a matter of fact, I think it's posted today. 

[00:06:01] Alyssa: Oh, perfect. There you go. It's, it's one of those like biases. We hear a lot of esp, esp we hear the most, I would say in middle and high school, but it starts to show up pretty early.

[00:06:11] We're like, are you old enough to know better when it comes to those toddler years? What, what about it do you see that is so formative? And that really lays that foundation for what's to come. I. Well, I'm 

[00:06:25] Dr. Cathryn: just gonna step back a pinch and just totally say one thing, which is, you know, when a baby is a little infant, we we're so protective of them and we see them as so vulnerable, and we'd run to the room a million times and never complain.

[00:06:40] But there's something that happens psychologically when they get up and start running around, and that we stop seeing them as really just big babies, which is what they are, but we start to treat them like little humans and or little adults. And it's that transition where I think, um, kids are misunderstood.

[00:07:00] And to answer your question, I, ugh. I, I would say we're misunderstanding them because we're seeing them as little adults instead of big babies. And a lot of what happens, a lot of what we call misbehavior is just immaturity, and they just need some time, you know, to get used to what's happening on planet earth here.

[00:07:23] Sure. 

[00:07:24] Alyssa: Yeah. They've been here for like 18 months. Exactly. It's all so new. Yeah. Okay, let's, let's break this down. So, when you say, because I have so often, I, I call them tiny humans and I call them tiny humans because I think we. Often forget that they are human, that they have feelings, that they have experiences that, you know, they're not trying to do something to drive you nuts.

[00:07:51] They're curious or they're exploring or whatever. And so when we're looking at this from that perspective of like, we see them as tiny adults. Yeah. It's like once they're up and moving and can talk to us. Exactly. Then we're like, oh, they have all of the knowledge and capabilities that I as a 36-year-old have, or whatever.

[00:08:10] Yes. And, uh, I, I love that perspective. So when we come into this, with that shift into, alright, they've been on planet Earth for 18 months and yeah, they can, right, right now my daughter's doing this thing. She's loves snacks and Right, like toddler snacks and she'll eat anything. She loves a chip. She will eat.

[00:08:34] Peppers. She'll like, it doesn't matter what it is, but she will ask for a snack all the time and she will, she knows where the like snack cabinet is for dry goods and she can't reach to open the fridge, but she can reach to open the snack cabinet until she'll go over and she'll go snack. Snack. And if we say it's not time for a snack right now, we're gonna have dinner in a little bit the like full.

[00:08:59] Body on the ground, she'll roll over and then she'll like pause in the middle and look at you like, do you see this? Do you see how mad I am? That's cute. And then if you're like, oh man, you're so mad. You really wanna have a snack, she'll go right back to it. She's like, I am so mad. 

[00:09:16] Dr. Cathryn: Good speech. If she's saying that, well, she won't 

[00:09:18] Alyssa: say, I am so mad.

[00:09:19] Okay. She just yells. She'll say mad. Um, she'll yell mad and then snack. And then whatever snack she's dreaming of, yes, a chip or Cheerios or whatever. It can just feel like it's so dramatic and so over the top and so frequent that. There are definitely people in our lives who are around her a lot that are just like, come on, we've been down this road.

[00:09:42] You know how this goes. Like, we're over it. We don't need this big of a reaction for such a little thing. Like, you can't have a chip 'cause we're having dinner in 30 minutes. Uh, what do you say to like that? I feel like the toddler, like big meltdown, overreaction is for people, it feels really dramatic and is often dismissed.

[00:10:01] Dr. Cathryn: Well, I I think there's two parts. There's one seeing it from the child's point of view, but the other is just reality. We're human and you know, there are times we're gonna get frustrated as well, but from the toddler point of view, they don't have impulse control, they don't have emotional regulation and they basically hold one idea in their head at a time.

[00:10:22] And when that idea gets in there. It's hard to get out of there. But from my way of thinking and that's certainly how I approached tantrums, was, you know, the way you think of them really shapes how you respond to them and the way you respond to them really actually shapes the tantrum as well. And so tantrums typically are shorter and faster and less frequent if you are relaxed and calm and, you know, just be reassuring and comforting, it'll be over quickly.

[00:10:53] And when you think of the day, how much of a time is really spent in a tantrum? Not very much. Oh, that's good perspective. Yeah. So I, I just try to be very patient and understanding. You know, it's interesting 'cause a lot of the things I'm experiencing now as a grandmother for the first time I, is similar to what I say to parents, which is it's much easier to be.

[00:11:14] Objective with my little granddaughter and not get sucked into the emotions and just see her as a little toddler having a moment. And that I think is something to learn that I've learned from being a grandparent that is helpful for parents. I. 

[00:11:28] Alyssa: Yeah, I think there's this idea out there, and honestly, I think social media parenting's a part of the problem in what I'm about to, to say.

[00:11:36] Agree. Like whatever it's, you're about to say just Yes. I love that, Dr. Catherine. I think that there's this idea that we will do all the right things or say all the right things, and then our kids gonna just like, accept the boundary and say like, oh, I'm really frustrated about this mom, but I get it. You know?

[00:11:59] And like, yes, it's not gonna happen that way, or That's never gonna happen. Never gonna happen. They're not gonna be. Thank you so much for having my safety in mind. I can tell you're really thinking about me. And so looking at this, I, I, I think a lot of folks feel like they're failing as a parent when their kid does have a meltdown.

[00:12:18] And when I, when I was on the book tour for tiny humans, big emotions, I. Someone asked me a question in the audience of like, well, how can I set the boundaries so that they aren't screaming and crying when we leave the playground? And I was like, that honestly isn't my goal. We can give you some tools to prep them and to support them, and ultimately they also are allowed to be disappointed and screaming and crying when you leave the playground.

[00:12:42] I think that's a wonderful approach. You know, and I, but I think that part of the social media parenting has led people to believe that there's a perfect way you could say or do something so that your kid. Doesn't have a tantrum or meltdown. I think you're right that, and I'm 

[00:12:58] Dr. Cathryn: sure I'm partly part of it, that I understand the perception that if you say the right thing or handle it the right way, your child will trot off or skip off happily.

[00:13:08] Alyssa: Sure. Gleefully I, 

[00:13:09] Dr. Cathryn: I agree with you. Allowing them to have all those feelings is part of the goal. 

[00:13:13] Alyssa: I'm curious for you as a pediatrician, have you seen a shift in the parents coming in in terms of concerns they have or anxieties they might have or questions they ask, or has there been a shift there from the parent side of things?

[00:13:28] Generationally, 

[00:13:29] Dr. Cathryn: having just retired my office, it's a little harder to answer that, but if I could say over the 35 years of practicing, or 36 years, parents have always. All, they always just wanna do whatever they can to have a happy kid. And so while the ways of dealing with problems have hugely changed, I don't think the concerns or worry or even uh, expectations have changed dramatically.

[00:13:58] It's just how we treat them. I, I guess one difference is allowing the feelings. Like before you didn't even see it as something you should think about as allowing feelings. But I think it's a huge improvement that, uh, that is now a priority with parents is recognizing that it's okay to feel sad. Yeah. Or anger.

[00:14:18] Alyssa: Yeah. It's so hard to do and we didn't experience it, you know? Exactly. I was driving sage to childcare and he's three-ish, three and change. And he said, mom, I'm gonna be at school and I'm gonna feel sad. I'm gonna be all alone and I'm gonna feel sad. And in that moment I'm like. I don't need this. We can turn around.

[00:14:41] I don't have to go to work. Right. I quit this job and because it's so deeply painful to, it hurts. Yeah. Oh, it hurts to watch somebody you love, feel sad. Yeah. And instead I had to lead into the Yeah, bud. You wanna know what's so cool about feelings, you know that none of 'em stay for a long time, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:15:00] And that it's okay to feel sad, but it's really hard to do that when we didn't receive that growing up. 

[00:15:07] Dr. Cathryn: I don't even know if it would be easier if we did receive it. I don't know. I think it's just hard to see your child be upset. Yeah. And there's lots of things we do to try and avoid them feeling upset.

[00:15:20] Alyssa: Yeah, I hate it. Um, it's also like always inconvenient, right? A toddler's not like, Hey mom, do you have a spare 20 minutes for me to have a hard time? Exactly. It's a good time for you. Is this, does this work in your, in your schedule, uh, when it comes to parenting and, and looking to raise these humans with intention, what can you say around the world of like perfect parenting and perfection and so many folks will say like, oh, well, I said this, or I messed this up this morning, and they're just carrying that guilt then afterward with them.

[00:15:58] Can you speak to that? I, 

[00:15:59] Dr. Cathryn: I find myself now as a parent of. Uh, but adult children, so to speak, it's great to be able to see the, and also in, in my practice, saw children go from infants to new parents themself. And I can say that there is a, a huge gigantic pressure on parents to be perfect. And you really don't need to be perfect.

[00:16:24] And I don't even think we should be trying to be perfect. 'cause kids need real parents with real feelings. And we're allowed to have the feelings too. And I think that's something we forget. We're so focused on our kids, we forget we're human beings. Mm-hmm. We get triggered. We have adult tantrums, so to speak.

[00:16:44] And that's okay. Your kids are looking for a human. Not a image of a perfect parent. Oh. And I think parents are so hard on themselves. That's one thing I really, I'm not sure how much it's hard to do it on social media. Sure. But it's one thing that's very much a priority for me is for parents to realize they are doing such a great job and trying so hard and forget about perfect parenting.

[00:17:11] Your child doesn't need or want that. Yeah. It's not 

[00:17:14] Alyssa: actually beneficial for anyone. Yeah. Not achievable. Also, I don't want our kids to think that they have to be perfect in any manner. Exactly. Or the perfect 

[00:17:24] Dr. Cathryn: child. 

[00:17:24] Alyssa: Exactly. Exactly. When we're looking at those toddler years, we know. We know from like a brain development perspective how formative they are, right?

[00:17:35] How we're laying these sort, it's why early intervention exists and why it can be so impactful and effective. When we're speaking to parents who might have like a one or a 2-year-old right now, what are some things to really prioritize in those toddler years or to really focus on that will lay that foundation for the years to come?

[00:17:57] Dr. Cathryn: Really, I would focus on the connection and the relationship, and that's a very jargony thing to say these days, but I really do mean it's not learning your alphabet, it's not preparing for nursery. It's really about your relationship with your siblings and with yourself as parents and with other adults in your life and.

[00:18:18] You know, kids are on this path to learning and we don't have to teach them so much as guide them and be there and love them. And that's what's important. Not your ABCs or saying things the right way. And we all mess up. My kids still remind me of the things I messed up when they were kids. 'cause they do remember.

[00:18:39] That's one of the things that, uh, has surprised me. But, but they also forgive you and laugh at it with you. That's so sweet. They're a little annoyed at you. 

[00:18:52] Alyssa: Yeah, sure. All of it's welcome. Uh, yeah. I'm one of five kids and, uh, same. We all, we bring it up to mom and to dad. Yes. And like all the things that they get to hear the good, the bad, and the annoyed.

[00:19:06] And they all have a place. I love that focus on connection. I think one thing. That can get in the way of it is, this sounds silly, but I, what, when I first had Sage, my, um, little guy, my 4-year-old, it was like a month in, and I remember saying to a friend, I was like, the parenting part isn't hard. It's the doing life part and the parenting part that feels harder.

[00:19:34] And I think life can just get in the way of the connection piece sometimes where we get stuck in logistics mode. We come home from school and it's like, all right, we gotta have, we gotta make dinner, we gotta have dinner, we gotta do tubby, we gotta do bedtime effort. Yes. Like the time can feel like it goes so fast and we're just doing one thing to the next.

[00:19:55] How can folks incorporate and build in connection? With life, with the day-to-day ongoing life tasks that also have to happen. I think 

[00:20:08] Dr. Cathryn: you have to sneak them in there and sprinkle them in throughout the day. You don't, I do like this magic time or spending a few five, 10 minutes with your child and letting them lead the way.

[00:20:20] But we didn't do that in our day, to be honest with you. But I would say you just, you find those moments. It doesn't take 20 minutes. It takes a hug, a kiss. I love you love. Oh that was amazing. Oh, that's so sweet. Or you know, just acknowledging the moments and there's a million little moments add up. 

[00:20:40] Alyssa: Yeah.

[00:20:41] It's so real. I think in our heads it, it often feels we, we do a lot of work in nervous system regulation, so sensory regulation and a think people will often be like, oh my gosh, well I don't have time to like do a workout or go for a run and. We undervalue what we can do in 30 seconds or a minute. Yes.

[00:21:00] And I think that's true with connection as well, that there, we do a lot of work with teachers and in classroom settings, and they'll be like, well, I have a classroom of 25 kids. Like I can't give everyone one to one connection. But it is possible to walk by and say, Hey bud, I'm so glad that you're back.

[00:21:20] We missed you when you were sick. That's huge. Or it's huge and it's so small. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I think that's such a beautiful gift to give parents is that like, if you didn't have that one-to-one time of five or 10 minutes with one of your kids today, that that's okay. It's enough to just let them know you notice them and.

[00:21:46] That can happen in 30 seconds. Exactly. Like 

[00:21:49] Dr. Cathryn: in my own example, I had a very busy practice and you know, would be gone from early morning to later in the day and you still find, even though you're gone so much of the time, there are endless moments to connect and it doesn't take all day like this image of doing one craft after another to be close and loving and to have a good relationship and to raise really great kids who feel good about themselves and contribute to the world.

[00:22:21] Alyssa: When you look back now Yes. As a mother of grown children, what did you learn from your motherhood journey that you didn't get from maybe the pediatric world or as a pediatrician, but that you really learned through practice as a, as a mom? I hate to say almost everything that's, 

[00:22:43] Dr. Cathryn: uh, I don't mean to say that in a bad way about my training, but as not to the pediatric training.

[00:22:48] Well, the training is really. Uh, you know, focused on ill children and how to manage them. And next came the emotional part. But I think I really learned the vast majority of that through life, through raising my own kids and helping, you know, thousands of other parents. Um, which is not, I had wonderful training.

[00:23:09] I have nothing bad to say about my training. It was fabulous. But the focus is really on, you know, unless you go into developmental pediatrics or something that focuses, they're just, and things have changed. In my day, we didn't do what community or ambulatory pediatrics. So out in the community where you learn these things from being with parents, with healthy kids, with everyday problems.

[00:23:32] Yeah. So I think things are different now, but, um, certainly my, my personal experience taught and my patients, my patients taught me a lot. I must thank them. 

[00:23:43] Alyssa: Is there anything looking back, I, I interviewed my mom when I was. When the podcast was really early, and it's one of my personal favorite interviews I ever Lovely have the opportunity to do.

[00:23:52] And there's 13 years between the oldest and youngest in my family. I have four brothers. Uh, the first three were really close in age, like 18 months, two years apart each, and then a gap, and then four year gap, and then me, and then a five year gap in my little brother. And so I had just gone to kindergarten when the youngest was born and I asked her, looking back, is there anything that she would shift or any like advice she would give her wisdom to share?

[00:24:20] And her answer was. To have just slowed down that it took her to the fifth kid to just slow down and be like, oh, it doesn't matter if we're in our pajamas all day, or we eat grilled cheese and tomato soup for three days in a row. Or Yeah, if, when the big kids came home from school and they would say, Hey, what'd you guys do today?

[00:24:39] And she would say, oh, Zach and I played shoots and ladders or whatever, that we just slowed down. And she was like, I always was like in a rush to do things to get the errands done or to make sure we went to the library hour or whatever and like get outta the house and do something. And it was by kid five that she realized like, I'm gonna actually do mostly nothing and just be, and that's gonna be everything.

[00:25:07] Uh, and that's been so helpful for me. I like took that into parenthood for myself. That's nice. And I'm curious if you have anything looking back that you're like, this is something I would've done differently or that I learned. You know, over the years 

[00:25:23] Dr. Cathryn: there's a lot, a lot of things I would've done differently, to be honest with you.

[00:25:25] But yeah, I mean, it's easy to look back and say, I wish I did this, or I wish I did that. Um, but probably one thing, and one thing that just comes from my current situation of almost losing my husband 

[00:25:38] Alyssa: mm-hmm. Uh, 

[00:25:39] Dr. Cathryn: is realizing just tell them you love them a lot and often and always, you know, I make it a point every, well, we've become very big huggers and I love you and, you know, checking in and checking out with each other all the time.

[00:25:54] Um, but it's made me really. Realize life can change quickly and it's important for you. Don't leave in a fight. You don't go to bed angry. You, you, yeah. You say I love you and give a good big hug no matter what. Oh, it's so real. But one of the things I would wanna tell parents, this is not really an answer to your question, but I think myself, I was the one that I didn't take the time for myself.

[00:26:17] 'cause ah, I was already gone at work all day and I wanted to make sure every single second was spent with my kids. And I would encourage parents to make sure to not put themself on the back burner. You know, in the end it's not good for your health, it's not good for your sanity, and it's not good for the family.

[00:26:35] Alyssa: I feel that so deeply. Yeah. Of like I, whatever hours or minutes, I'm not working. I want to be with the kids and I have to very consciously. Carve out. Yeah. Time for myself and find where that's gonna be. And even sometimes just the logistics around it, like how do you do it? Whatever can feel harder than honey 

[00:26:57] Dr. Cathryn: sometimes it's the same thing we're saying.

[00:26:59] It can be that little sprinkle of something for yourself. It doesn't have to be a afternoon offer a day off. Yeah. But just be kind to yourself. I 

[00:27:08] Alyssa: love it. You'd asked this question to someone else in my sphere. Uh. Who is now a great grandparent. And he said, it took me to being a grandparent to really realize that like nothing really matters.

[00:27:22] Yes. That there was so much that I would like harp on my kids about or be annoyed with or whatever. And he was like, at the end of the day it didn't matter that they pulled off the couch cushions and now the living room's a mess. 'cause they made a fort and I'm so annoyed with this 'cause I know they're not gonna clean it up or the cleanup process is gonna be annoying and I'm gonna have to ask them 17 times.

[00:27:41] Yes. Uh, he was like, at the end of the day, it didn't even matter if they cleaned it up or I did. Yes. It just didn't matter. And that I try to embody and sometimes miss it, but that most of these things that we are so worried about Yes. Don't matter. I was giving a talk in New York City recently for a group of parents and I had a parent ask a question and it was down the like q and a line of like, we'd just gotten into the minutiae of stuff and I said, I am happy to answer like how you could respond or support.

[00:28:13] This child in this instant. And I want you to know if you never do anything differently from what you're doing right now with this, it doesn't matter. Like it will not down the road be something that changes who they are or how they show up in the world. And she was like, oh, thank God it, but I think we can just get into the minutia of like, oh my gosh, I said you're okay instead of whatever.

[00:28:37] But there's just like so much minutia I think we can get caught up in, in these details that really don't have a big impact. Absolutely. 

[00:28:45] Dr. Cathryn: But it made me think of something which is, and it sort of goes back to question you asked me a little earlier, but I think one of the biggest impacts on my kids' behavior and who they've become as adults isn't the things we said to them or how we dealt with the hitting.

[00:29:00] It was who we were as parents and how we interacted with others. You know, the waitress or the person in front of us in line and that. Made the biggest impact or anyways, made a big enough impact that it's very obvious. Um, and it's something we just don't pay as much attention about. We're so fixated on fixing our kids such a huge impact on our kids as who we are and how we interact in the world in life.

[00:29:28] Alyssa: Yes. It's so real. My dad told me when we were really little, I, I distinctly remember him saying, I notice who somebody is by how they treat somebody they can get nothing from. Yes. And. He modeled that like he will, he's a very social and just like kind loving human. And he lived and breathed that. And recently I was talking to my husband about behavior we were seeing in my son and I was like, well, here's what we've been modeling.

[00:30:02] And he was like, Ugh, do we always have to model everything? I was like, we don't have to, but he's gonna pay attention way more to what we do than what we say. I think it's so much 

[00:30:11] Dr. Cathryn: those unconscious things that things you don't even recognize you're doing. 

[00:30:15] Alyssa: Totally. Exactly. Um, it's, it's so real. When you are connecting with families of toddlers through your work as a pediatrician and then and now, um, through social media and your work that's carrying on, what is the most common thing you hear from them that you feel like, ah, this is a piece that's misunderstood about toddlers.

[00:30:40] Like, what's the thing that people turn to you the most about in that space? 

[00:30:46] Dr. Cathryn: It's when parents have tried everything and the behavior isn't fixing or, or improving. So, you know, a child hitting at daycare or biting, and so much of, so many of these behaviors are because kids don't have speech yet. And once speech will come, the behavior is going to settle down.

[00:31:08] And so it's very common to think a child's behaving badly when it's really immaturity. And instead of, we do have to fix biting and hitting, and I am not permissive parent whatsoever and don't want to give that impression. But a lot of these behaviors are things that we need to look at. What can I do in the meantime till maturity kicks in instead of how can I, uh.

[00:31:35] Bash this problem to go away. 

[00:31:37] Alyssa: Yeah. I think we're really good at jumping ahead to like, they're gonna be 16 and have no friends and no's gonna wanna play with them. Yeah. But, and we forget that they're 18 months old right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's so easy to jump ahead to that or, or be nervous about what does this mean?

[00:31:53] Or will this ever stop? Yes. 

[00:31:55] Dr. Cathryn: I don't even like Saint Toddlers misbehave, to be honest with you. Mm-hmm. Because I don't think they misbehave. I think their being and their way of learning is through testing things out and trying things. And some of them are okay and some aren't, and that's what we need to teach them.

[00:32:13] But to stop thinking it as misbehavior as a young kid, I'm not talking as an older one, but as a toddler, I think that's the, probably the biggest misconception is that they're misbehaving and need to be fixed as opposed to taught. 

[00:32:28] Alyssa: I love, I love that perspective so much. My daughter is. Deeply connection seeking.

[00:32:34] She just wants to be a part of the hang. She wants to feel included. And she's been this way her whole life. And my son is the opposite, where like he is more like sensory regulation seeking where he can get overstimulated in a space and he walks into a space of a hundred people he doesn't know. And he's like, get me outta here.

[00:32:56] Like I wanna go hide. And she walks into a space of a hundred people she doesn't know and she's like, hi, isn't an interesting thing. Kids, different temperaments. Yeah. So cool to just like witness. But she will go up from the minute he is up and he's around, she wants to connect with him. And one of the things we've been talking a lot about in our household lately is that she's always asking for connection and she starts off asking for it in kind ways.

[00:33:26] She'll go up, she'll say hi. She'll bring him his sloth stuffed animal. She's trying so hard to connect with him. And if she doesn't receive connection in those ways, yes, her body will keep trying to connect. Yes. And eventually it ends up in her taking a toy or hitting him or biting him. And we talk to him a lot about this, like when she comes up and she's saying hi, and you ignore her, and you ignore her, and you ignore her, her need for connection doesn't go away.

[00:33:54] Just the avenue in which her body seeks it out shifts. How do you say that to him? Yeah, we talk a lot about our needs as either needs for connection or to feel included or needs that our body need inside, like food or sleep or to go to the bathroom or if it's feeling overwhelmed and we've talked about that for a long time, and he will tell you like, I feel overwhelmed.

[00:34:19] I need a break. And he'll go and take that. And we've talked for a while about how a lot of the times, what her body needs is to feel connected or included. And so when we see her come up and say hi, we'll say, oh, I see her saying hi. It looks like she wants to feel connected to you. And sometimes he'll turn and say, I don't wanna connect with you, Mila.

[00:34:41] We're like, yeah, that's fair. She's gonna keep asking for connection and we'll say, sometimes I can pop in and I can give her connection and that fills her cup. And sometimes she'll keep asking for it from a kid. And so if he's the only kid around. She'll keep asking for it. And when we remind him of that, he at this point will usually pause and say like, do you see my new crane truck?

[00:35:04] He just got this crane truck for his birthday yesterday. And he'll say, are you curious about it? And we've talked, told him like, she's gonna be curious for one minute. Yeah. And she's gonna play with it. And then she's gonna move on. And he's seen it happen enough times in practice now that he is starting to believe like, okay, it'll only be a minute.

[00:35:22] And so I'll say, are you cur, it's almost like a script where he's just like, are you curious? Do you wanna see it for a minute? Would you like to touch the buttons? And then sure. Now she touches the buttons and she'll move on and she's smiling and off she goes. And then we reinforce that of like, she did wanna feel connected and included you for sharing that.

[00:35:39] But love Big Brother. Oh he's, I told you like tender, just like gentle. But it takes a lot of coaching. There's a lot of that led up to this of just like him screaming and saying No and go away and that's mine and I don't want you here. And it's a lot of the outside, those moment conversations. Yeah. Then we can bring into the moment.

[00:36:00] Yes. 

[00:36:00] Dr. Cathryn: That's a a very good point because that's how kids learn. 

[00:36:04] Alyssa: That's right. In the moment. We can't really have much of a conversation if we haven't laid any foundation for him. Yeah. Yeah. But that is one where I'm like, we often, and, and even in our work with schools, as kids get older, we see a lot of bits for connection or requests for regulation that are done through behavior that are just ignored or not seen.

[00:36:29] And then it escalates. Yes. And now we have a kid who's asking for connection in a very annoying, inconvenient way or is so dysregulated, and now it's very clear as they're like trying to run out of the classroom or throw a chair or whatever. And what we've observed so often is that there's little, um, moments or invitations to meet that need that happen.

[00:36:54] Well, leading up to the big one. Yes. 

[00:36:58] Dr. Cathryn: Do you ever feel that asking your son to give when he doesn't give emotionally when he doesn't feel like giving? Is unfair to him. I'm not suggesting it is. No, totally, totally. I'm just wondering your thoughts. 

[00:37:13] Alyssa: We will ask him. Well, he knows he doesn't have to. Right.

[00:37:15] Okay. We'll, him know, you don't have to share. You don't have to let her. It doesn't mean she's gonna stop. Yes. Right. Like she might continue to ask to be included and really present it for him as a choice. You can choose to pause and include her for a minute here, or you can ignore her and see what happens.

[00:37:33] I will try and connect with her. That might not feel like enough for her. I'm not sure how this will play out. And then he gets to make the choice of like, does it feel worth it for him right now to pause and connect or to wait and see what happens if he doesn't wanna connect with her. And we do the same thing even with like.

[00:37:52] Recently he was climbing up a ladder and my mom was there, and I know he's safe to climb that up, that ladder and to grab the thing he was gonna grab and to come down. He's done it a million times, but she feels nervous about it. Yes. And so she was stepping in and was like, oh sage, it's too high. I can't let you climb up there.

[00:38:11] We gotta come down. You're not safe up there. And I was nearby, but just let them do their thing, play out. And then later I chatted with him and said, Hey bud, Grammy feels nervous when you go up places that are high. Even if you feel safe in your body, she feels nervous about that. You get to make a choice.

[00:38:31] You can say, Grammy, I'm safe up here. My body feels safe up here. And you can keep doing it and see what happens. She might step in and pull you down or help you down, or you can say, okay, and you can come down and you can go up that ladder later with mom or dad. 

[00:38:47] Dr. Cathryn: I love, I love that you've chosen to deal with it that way because there's so much emphasis on grandparents changing 

[00:38:53] Alyssa: that 

[00:38:53] Dr. Cathryn: you've laid, made space for her feelings, which is Yeah, and just 

[00:38:57] Alyssa: like he's gonna be out in the world and everyone else around him is gonna have different ways of responding to him or different experiences in their own life that are gonna, I can't control their reaction.

[00:39:07] That's right. I just wanna prepare him for like, he's got a choice to make. Yeah. And sometimes it's gonna be that he says, man, I know in my body that I am safe to climb up there, but it is not worth it to deal with Grammy sphere. You know, like, that's not worth it for me right now. Yeah. And he gets to choose that.

[00:39:25] Dr. Cathryn: But I think what you're doing is you're, you're vocalizing the things somebody thinks inside. Mm-hmm. Especially an adult thinks inside, not necessarily a three-year-old, but, uh, I think that's really cool. 

[00:39:37] Alyssa: Yeah. Thanks. Uh, I am just trying to give him all the information I can for him to make a decision and yeah, sometimes it means he ends up pausing and like, I also feel like when he does pause his play and include Mila.

[00:39:55] He gets connection out of that in the end too, even if it's not what he wanted to do and wasn't his like first choice when she leaves and she's got a big smile on her face and she feels connected. Yes. You see him soften too. 

[00:40:10] Dr. Cathryn: That's probably good. Also, if that's not his tendency, it's sort of bringing him out a little bit.

[00:40:15] Alyssa: Yeah. He wants to control the play through and through and it, I feel like gives him practice in pausing and including somebody else in a way that he doesn't get to control necessarily. And it really, I really do feel like it, he feels connected in the end. 

[00:40:32] Dr. Cathryn: And does it turn out too many choices throughout the day?

[00:40:36] Like if he's always having to, to think and decide? 

[00:40:41] Alyssa: Not so much. I feel like she, once she gets that connection, need met, then she's off and she'll just like go and play and do her thing. Yeah. And she's not like more, more, more, more, more. She's only asking for more, more, more when that need isn't met. Yeah.

[00:40:55] Dr. Cathryn: Very interesting. 

[00:40:56] Alyssa: Nice. Yeah. And I think he's seen that play out enough and we have like neighbors and stuff that then like it's not always on him to connect with her. Yeah. She'll go and play with the neighbors and that sort of thing too. Uh, yeah. I think with practice and watching her get that need met and then leave him alone essentially.

[00:41:17] Mm-hmm. He's like, okay. He's learned. Yeah. He is like, this is worth the one minute. Yeah, exactly. Uh, it's, it's fun to have little test subjects here to like watch it all play out. Um, but I think there's a lot of. Nuance in the conversation that's missed on social media where it's like no forced sharing or not making a kid step out of their own plan ever.

[00:41:42] And I just don't think that helps actually prepare them for life. Um, I 

[00:41:47] Dr. Cathryn: agree. I mean, it, it, let's face it, these little, uh, bits and pieces that Yeah. Are on Instagram are not the full picture. 

[00:41:57] Alyssa: Yeah. There so much. They're the, the I nuance 

[00:41:59] Dr. Cathryn: missing. Yeah, yeah, 

[00:41:59] Alyssa: exactly. I'm like, yeah, largely we're not gonna force sharing, but also it's a good place to start to think about it.

[00:42:06] Yeah, totally. And I want them to have cognitive flexibility and include other people in their play and know how to do that and all that jazz. Yes. Yeah. Well, I am so grateful that I got to hang and chat with you. And can you share with folks where can they find you, learn more about your work and find your podcast?

[00:42:28] Dr. Cathryn: My podcast is Toddlers Made Easy. My new book is Toddlers Made Easy. Uh, but you can find me on Instagram at healthiest underscore baby. I did start off Instagram with babies and as time has gone by, grown up to toddlers. 

[00:42:44] Alyssa: Yeah, grown up to toddlers. I love that. Thank you so much, Dr. Catherine. I love getting to learn from you.

[00:42:50] Thank you. It's been a real pleasure. Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:43:02] I need to hear all about your wedding and the heels, the picture I saw you're not wearing the heels, so Yeah, I know 

[00:43:09] Rachel: I wore different heels because, um, I didn't realize that, so I had to be there at one to like practice with our. Um, piano player, pianist. Oh, did you sing? Yes, we sang a group of us. Oh. Um, and then the reception was quite long.

[00:43:29] Um, so I knew I was gonna be there from like one to eight 30, so I still had like pretty decent sized heels on, but they were open toe instead of pointed toe. Yeah, totally. So that was a strategic move. Um, yeah. That was smart. Yeah. How was the, how was it all, all of it? It was, it was good. Um, it was fun. It was a beautiful wedding.

[00:43:50] It was cool, um, just to see like culturally there were some differences 'cause they're a Ukrainian couple, so it was cool to see. Um, and yeah, it was great. We didn't bring the kids, so it was nice to kind of just. B, the wedding without the kids is the move. Yeah. Um, and there were some kids there, but like they were gonna be in a separate room like having childcare and I just felt it would be better to just not Totally.

[00:44:20] And so Cody did have to leave before me to retrieve our children and get them to bed at a decent time. But, um, it was still fun and fun. Good. Yeah. 

[00:44:32] Alyssa: Sweet. We actually have a family wedding that's gonna be a blasty blast 'cause it's like a blast family reunion essentially. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it's a kid free wedding, like around 4th of July time and we are bringing the kids but they're not gonna come to the wedding.

[00:44:49] Right. So, 'cause we'll go out for the weekend. And I'm so looking forward to just like, I love to dance. Zach's a very good dancer and it's like a fun thing that we used to do a lot. We had every like pre-kids, we had Friday night dance party at our house to like kickstart the weekend and like just the two of us and legit, we'd like put on music and dance and eat dinner and get ready and whatever, and going with friends and we don't dance anymore.

[00:45:21] Yeah. You know, unless it's to like truck tuned the ambulance song or whatever. Totally. And it's 

[00:45:27] Rachel: not the vibe. 

[00:45:28] Alyssa: Not the vibe. And, and we went to a wedding last fall and it was just the most rejuvenating thing we'd done for our relationship in so long where we were kid free and we just danced the night away.

[00:45:41] Yeah. Uh. Yeah, and it was incredible. I, we like barely left the dance bar and I'm super stoked to just like, have that again. 

[00:45:49] Rachel: Yeah. I love dancing and Cody has some hilarious moves. Um, yeah, it's just really nice. I think like I, we're not kid free very often. Mm-hmm. Um, honestly, we should be more, but I find it challenging.

[00:46:06] But yeah, just sneaking in those little times to be a couple like Yeah. Instead of parents. Yeah. It's different 

[00:46:16] Alyssa: man. It's different and it's so nice, but also 

[00:46:18] Rachel: it's so hilarious. So by the time they got to the wedding where they were like, stand up if you've been married for X number of years. So I stood up and Cody was gone at that point.

[00:46:27] And it was just like such a perfect illustration of being parents, right? Yeah. Like, yep, we've been married for 12 years and he's gone because our kids need to go to bed 'cause it's a school night. You know what I mean? So real. Um, it's just, yeah. It just, but it is nice to occasionally not be like in mom mode.

[00:46:43] 'cause it's really hard for me to be in mom mode and partner mode at the same time. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Like mom mode, like shuts off my like same sexual and romantic side so fast. Mm-hmm. Um, like I am just a biological nurturing machine and there's not a sexual bone in my body, you know? And it's like so hard for me to 

[00:47:08] Alyssa: make that switch.

[00:47:10] A hundred percent. Zach literally said the other, I was like, we were parenting. And he like, kind of jokingly was like, you wanna make out? And I was like, right now, no. Like just, and he was like, I know. I mean, I was kidding, but like, I'm like, 

[00:47:26] Rachel: I'm parenting. Like no, I don't. I know. It's so hard for me actually, like one thing that I've been wanting to do more is like just have the kids see Cody and I like hug and kiss like in greeting.

[00:47:36] Mm-hmm. Because we hardly ever do that in front of them. 

[00:47:39] Alyssa: Yeah. I'm like, 

[00:47:39] Rachel: I would like that to feel normal for them. 

[00:47:42] Alyssa: Yeah. We do that. But every hug is then Mila is feeling very left out. Mm-hmm. And she immediately sprints over and she wants a family hug, but then she pushes the Zach out of it and she just wants to hug me.

[00:47:56] Rachel: I have this video of Abel and I'm holding Abel and then Cody comes over and like hugs me and kisses me on the cheek and Abel starts crying and pushing us apart and it's just such a perfect illustration of what it's like trying to keep the spark alive when you have have children. 

[00:48:16] Alyssa: It's so real. It's so real.

[00:48:19] And 

[00:48:19] Rachel: now we're getting to the age where like Norris stays up later. She's harder, she's always been hard to put to bed. But now like, it's like her circadian rhythm has shifted. Totally. 'cause she's like coming up into being a preteen, whatever. So then it's like, man, by the time she's asleep, like I don't have much steam left.

[00:48:36] You know? It's like, no. And 

[00:48:38] Alyssa: when she's awake, she wants to connect with you. So it's not like she is off doing No, we, 

[00:48:41] Rachel: we don't live in a home where it would be possible for like that to take place with children. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, it's like I have friends who are like, yeah, we just lock the door when our kids are awake.

[00:48:53] And I'm like, what? Yeah. There's not a world in which, mm-hmm. There is not a world in which. 

[00:49:00] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I also, because my mom brain is still on, 

[00:49:05] Rachel: that's it for me. Like, I just, it's not fun for me. I actually don't want to, um, no. And. Yeah, I ju it's interesting how brains work so differently, right? Because I, like, I have friends who are like, no, it's kind of fun to like see like, can we, like, can we get this done?

[00:49:20] And I'm like, yeah, I don't, that's not fun to me. N not with 

[00:49:24] Alyssa: kids around. No, no. Which actually is apropos, I think because we're chatting about toddlers in this episode. 

[00:49:33] Rachel: Yeah. Navigating toddlerhood with confidence. Woo. 

[00:49:38] Dr. Cathryn: Oh my gosh. 

[00:49:40] Alyssa: Yeah. And toddlers, you know, who doesn't give a hoot? Toddlers. Yeah. 

[00:49:46] Rachel: I love toddlers so much, although I, you're the best.

[00:49:49] Like now that I'm out of the toddler, like my baby is six, I'm in this like season of parenthood where I, I feel like we all have so much freedom that you don't have when you have a toddler. But there is nothing cuter to me than a 2-year-old child. 

[00:50:04] Alyssa: Beans is so stinking cute right now. She's 16 months, 17 months, something like that.

[00:50:10] And. Just adorable and fun. Like Gabby, uh, who's a part of our family and, uh, takes care of beans. She, the other day was like, every time I just watch her do life, I'm like, why are you so cute? And it's everything right now, right? Like the way she eats or the little words she says, or just, she's so fun. I love one and 2-year-old so much.

[00:50:37] I do too. 

[00:50:37] Rachel: Their voices are so cute. Oh, so 

[00:50:40] Alyssa: cute. 

[00:50:41] Rachel: Just everything about them and that I miss, like I don't miss the newborn stage and I don't wanna go back to feeling like I need to have my boobs available at all times. But I so miss like the cute little words and the way that their lips move when they chew, just like everything they do is so damn cute.

[00:51:03] Alyssa: It's so cute. It's so cute and so fun. 'cause there's just like something new every day, right? Like I love it. We just, this weekend we have a like little play set in our backyard and there's kind of like this tower that they often call the Rapunzel Tower, the kids playing right now. And or for Sage, it's a fire tower right now, but you climb up a ladder, hoppy, you climb up a ladder, there's like a platform and a slide, and then you can climb up another small ladder and there's like a big twisty slide.

[00:51:33] And all of a sudden, like she could do the ladder and go down this slide. And in one second later she was like, all right, onto the next and just like navigated that next ladder down the big slide. And I was like, do you want me to come up? And she was like, self. And so she climbs up, she does it herself and then immediately like comes to the bottom and was like, again.

[00:51:58] Aw. And she goes around and she did it 12 times on repeat. I counted it 12 times on repeat, where she was just like up the two ladders, down the side, up the two. And I was like, okay. She just do this. Yeah. Now. And it's just things like that where every day there's something new. Yeah, it really is. 

[00:52:17] Rachel: It's so fun.

[00:52:18] It's so fun. And I think what is so challenging about toddlers. Is this internal pressure that I think a lot of us have to, um, like train them not to act like toddlers. Like don't have tantrums. Don't a hundred percent. Like why don't you have impulse control? I already told you not to do that. Stop throwing your food on 

[00:52:41] Alyssa: the 

[00:52:41] Rachel: floor.

[00:52:42] Alyssa: Why 

[00:52:42] Rachel: are you crying over the way I peeled this banana? You know, like yeah, I know. Well, I know that kind of stuff. And I think like, especially for those of us with social programming where like we were held to really high standards as really young children, it's really difficult to allow your toddler to behave like a toddler.

[00:53:02] And I don't mean to throw out rules and boundaries, but I mean like not punishing them for crying over that banana that fell apart while you were peeling it, right? Correct. 

[00:53:14] Alyssa: Yeah. And it's very interesting to see. You know, we saw this right from the jump, but to see it really unfold right now, the difference in their nervous systems.

[00:53:25] Hmm. Like sage as a toddler versus Mila as a toddler, and sage goes into freeze mode. Right. So typically when he's dysregulated, he predominantly freezes or flees he's gonna run away or he is gonna freeze. She predominantly goes into fight mode. Mm-hmm. So she looks at you and says, over my dead body, will I do that thing?

[00:53:49] Yep. And it's not a conscious choice any more than him. Running away in the moment is not a conscious choice, but man, do I have so much social program. Also, I am her. Right? Like we have so many similarities and I was called defiant and dramatic. And the idea that like I was manipulating the people around me and all of that was stuff that I heard as a young child and um, really my whole life.

[00:54:20] And she does this now. And so those things come up for me in the moment. And I want to double down and be like, you know, who's played this game her whole life? This girl, you wanna duke this out? Let's go. Like, that's my initial instinct. Yeah. Is I can win this battle. Mm-hmm. And Zach goes into freeze mode on brand.

[00:54:44] Correct. He does nothing and says nothing. At which point Mila just screams louder for whatever it is. Yeah. She's like, 

[00:54:50] Rachel: respond to me now. 

[00:54:52] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, you wanna respond? Let's go. And Zach's like frozen and neither of us are in a regulated sate. And I have to work really hard with her to not go into fight mode.

[00:55:05] But then on the flip side, I understand her and in way that I didn't with Sage as a toddler, where like when she's in fight mode and I access regulation, again, it's actually not as triggering for me as Sage who will freeze. And I'm like, can you answer me? Do you hear me? And he's just in freeze mode. 

[00:55:32] Rachel: Yes.

[00:55:32] So Nora is my freeze or flight child, although she'll fight with me, but I mean we all have all four in us. Fight, flight, freeze. As a toddler, she was more likely to disassociate. Yeah. Right. Um, Abel totally fights like correct. He always, his whole life, his entire life, like I I, I still don't know if I've ever met a kid who cries as much as he did slash still does.

[00:56:02] That was his way of like expressing his discomfort or anger or whatever it 

[00:56:07] Alyssa: was. The first thing your mom said to me when I walked in and he was three weeks old, she was like, I've never heard a kid cry this much. 

[00:56:13] Rachel: Yeah, he just, and my mom's been around a lot of babies, a lot of kids. Yeah. So he, he goes into beast mode and honestly though he is me in so many ways.

[00:56:28] And so once I got through the postpartum depression and felt like I, I did have tools to help him regulate. It's easier for me and was easier for me to connect with him as a toddler than it was with Nora. Nora was like hyperactive and ran away or didn't respond. And I was like, wow, this is, I don't know how to deal with this.

[00:56:45] This is so frigging annoying. You're so much like your dad, you know? 'cause he, oh yeah, I know both. That's like his, I birthed one of those. Yeah, that's his MO too. So I was just like, I don't know what to do with this with Abel. It's like, no, I know what to do with this. 'cause I've actually felt this in my body before.

[00:57:03] Mm-hmm. Like, I, I also go into fight. Um, so it's just interesting to. 

[00:57:11] Alyssa: Because, and you and Abel are both like, he's sensory sensitive, you're more sensory sensitive. Mm-hmm. And Nora and Cody are both more sensory seeking. 

[00:57:21] Rachel: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And Nora is neuro perceptive sensitive. Yes. 

[00:57:26] Alyssa: Correct. 

[00:57:27] Rachel: Um, but her response to that is often to disassociate or shut down.

[00:57:33] Um, 

[00:57:34] Alyssa: so for folks who are like neuro receptive, that's a fancy word, what does that mean? Is the like reading of the room or you like walk in and you can feel the energy of the space, or you walk into a space and you're like, Ooh, somebody's clearly been arguing in here and now that I can feel that tension or whatever.

[00:57:50] Our neuro perceptive sensitive humans really are hyper aware of that energy in a space and it is often very dysregulating for them. Where, for instance, sage is neuro perceptive sensitive. He'll notice the energy and he has a hard time regulating if. The energy does not like, he will join that energy essentially, and Mila will notice it.

[00:58:13] She'll identify it and then she'll go back to her play. 

[00:58:17] Rachel: Yeah. So it's interesting because my sensory sensitive child is not neuro receptive. Sensitive. So like, yeah, Nora, while she is like hyperactive and I often will say like, she's a honey badger because she's just like so all over the place. If you take a tone with her, that interceptive sense immediately is like danger, danger, danger.

[00:58:39] Mm-hmm. Whereas like Abel. Is the actual honey badger where he will like get in trouble at school and Nora will be like, what you got in trouble? Like what happened? He is like, I don't know, I just sit in time out for a minute. A k, I don't care. Yeah, right. Like, and so it's just so interesting and that I think in toddlerhood, because so much of toddlerhood is like decoding behavior.

[00:59:01] Mm-hmm. Because they're still really like working on expressive language and so like decoding that behavior through the lens of the nervous system 

[00:59:10] Alyssa: mm-hmm. 

[00:59:10] Rachel: Can be a real challenge, but also is so helpful for a being able to access like compassion and not be like, oh, you're just a defiant little, you know what, you know?

[00:59:21] Yeah. It's like, oh, like your nervous system is dysregulated or something has set you off, or this is how you're responding to this stressor. Um, I think about like the phrase, use your words. Like, I actually saw this recently with a child melting down and he had gotten hurt and he was crying quite hard.

[00:59:39] And the parents obviously well-intentioned, were saying like, use your words buddy. Like, I don't, I need you to tell me what's wrong. Like, what happened? Use your words. And I wanted to be like, he literally can't. Can you just pause and imagine you're an adult, 

[00:59:54] Alyssa: you just had something horrible happen and you're sobbing, right?

[00:59:59] You are like, mm, just sobbing, or you're raging. And I'm like really angry at my husband and I'm snappy and I am sarcastic and I'm rude and whatever. And somebody pops in and says, Alyssa, use your words. Talk to Zach. Tell him what's going on. Choose your words. Slow your body down and use your words. I wanna throat punch you.

[01:00:21] Yeah. There. Oh I am, no, there's not a world in which that is helpful in the moment. Yeah. Who fired up thinking about it? And really what we're looking at here is how do we support their nervous system so they can even access langu and communication 

[01:00:40] Rachel: 100%. Okay, so another thing that might get you fired up, but this happened, let's go.

[01:00:45] So this was at this wedding there were lots of guests, um, and one of the families had their children with them 'cause they were part of the wedding procession. And so somebody who was part of coordinating the wedding was like, Hey, do you need like coloring materials or anything else for your kids? 'cause this is gonna be a long ceremony.

[01:01:07] And the parents were like, no, we have them well-trained, AKA, they are disassociating from this event because they know that if they are present in their bodies, they are will likely be punished. And I. I had a really hard time. They, this family happened to be sitting right in front of us during the ceremony, and then we were also seated at their table during the reception.

[01:01:34] Um, and I, I kept my, I kept it chill, somebody else's wedding. Um, also this, I just, because I know the context, I know that I'm not gonna change their Yeah. Worldview about children. 

[01:01:51] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:52] Rachel: Um, but I think like there is this cultural idea still. Mm-hmm. Outside of the bubble of respectful parenting, there is still a huge Yes.

[01:02:05] Tidal wave of cultural programming that really doesn't treat kids like people. They're not animals to be trained. They're humans. 

[01:02:16] Alyssa: Yes. And I think what people miss is. Is it? You end up with that pendulum swing. Actually, Maddie, my cousin, was just here this weekend. She and I were chatting and she said, she was like, I like that you're still firm.

[01:02:32] And I was like, tell me what that means to you. And she was like, you'll step in and say, Sage, that's not an appropriate thing to do here. I can move your body to help you get calm. Or you can pause here if you wanna stay here right now. Mm-hmm. And when he's like spitting his water all over his peanut butter and jelly sandwich that we have at the museum, and it's the only food he has, and then he's not gonna want to eat it.

[01:02:59] Right? Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, I'm not gonna let you do that. I can move your body. I can move the sandwich, but I'm not gonna let you just do that because you're overstimulated at the museum. I'm not mad at you. You're not in trouble. I'm not gonna be like, we're never coming back to the museum. You can't handle this.

[01:03:15] We're outta here right now. Yeah. And I'm not gonna let you spit your water all over the sandwich. I packed. Both of those things are true. Absolutely. And I think what people miss is that middle ground of like, yeah, I'm gonna set a firm boundary. And I'm not like, Hey Sage, could you please stop spitting water all over your sandwich because it's gonna get all soggy and then you're not gonna want to eat it.

[01:03:38] And then I think your belly might be hungry because he's too dysregulated to take that in right now. He's too dys. Way too many words. And just like he, in a regulated body, he's not spitting water on his sandwich. Absolutely. Right? Mm-hmm. So he's not regulated enough to make a decision right now. He needs me to step in and save the sandwich until he's regulated enough to make a decision around the sandwich.

[01:04:06] Mm-hmm. And I'm, again, it's not from a place of like, and I'm mad at you and you're in trouble. And that's the difference is that. Uh, with punishment, we're leaving. We're outta here. We're never coming back to this museum. You can't spit all over your thing and whatever. And with boundaries, I'm saying I'm gonna step in and help you where you currently can't help yourself.

[01:04:31] Rachel: Hmm, absolutely. Yeah. I just was a little bit blown away by the 'cause. It is, it's such a polarized thing, right? Mm-hmm. On, on the one end, we have folks who don't want their toddlers to have coloring materials. Um, 'cause they want them to be able to sit still with no other stimulation or tools or whatever.

[01:04:53] And then of course, we've got people who are not able to set any boundaries or feel like if they are setting boundaries, they're not being a, a gentle or respectful parent. Correct. Right. And there is that middle ground of like. I would also expect my children to be quiet had they been there with me and Correct.

[01:05:14] They would've known. No, you don't just get to run all over the place 'cause you're at a wedding and you're a kid. Right? Like, we are going to sit, if you're not able to sit quietly, I will take you out. 

[01:05:24] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:26] Rachel: Um, but I think it's finding that middle ground where we're not afraid of their behaviors and we're not punishing them for having normal behaviors and we're, we're comfortable setting boundaries or physically stopping behaviors, which is often necessary with toddlers.

[01:05:45] Yeah. Rather than existing on one of the two polar ends of that. 

[01:05:51] Alyssa: A hundred percent. This reminds me actually, I had a friend once who they like ride a lot of bikes in their family. They do a lot of biking and their little guy had always been like on a bike seat or in like the. Thing that clearly we don't bike.

[01:06:10] I don't know what it's called, but the like attachment thing that rides that, like the bike poles the kids are in. 

[01:06:15] Rachel: Oh, the trailer? 

[01:06:17] Alyssa: Yes. Trailer. Thank you. 

[01:06:18] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:18] Alyssa: And then they got him like a balanced bike that he was using and then he ended up with Tricycle and then he was on a bicycle and really coordinated, really able to do it from a pretty young age.

[01:06:29] And they were going out to the bike path to like go for bike rides and he kept like going off ahead and like going to spaces where they couldn't see him and where wasn't developmentally also like along our bike path is not all safe spaces. Sure. Both from like a water perspective and from other forms of danger.

[01:06:54] And they kept saying like, you cannot ride. And she's like, we end up like just booking it after him and like, this isn't fun. No one's having fun. I was like, okay. It sounds like. You keep expecting him to do something that he keeps showing you, I'm not ready for that skillset yet. I can't stay back with you right now developmentally.

[01:07:16] And she was like, ah, I'm like expecting too much. And I was like, that's what it seems like he's showing us, is that over and over when you talk to him afterwards and whatever, he knows what he should or shouldn't do and what's safe and what isn't. But then he can't access that in the moment. He's not ready to be off to the races on the bike path.

[01:07:38] I wonder if there are spaces that he can continue to practice biking that's in a more controlled environment. And then when you go to the bike path, he's still in the trailer or on the bike seat and you let him know, I'm not mad at you, you're not in trouble. And right now it's too hard for your body to stop zooming ahead where we can't see you.

[01:07:56] So right now we're gonna, when we're on the bike path, have you in the trailer, in the bike seat, and we'll have. All these other times and places that we can practice biking and we can bike together as a family and you can be on your bike. Mm-hmm. And then when you're ready, we'll try again and see if you can stay with us and not zoom ahead Right now, here's what your body's showing me.

[01:08:17] Mm-hmm. Like, he's not in trouble. I'm not mad at you. You developmentally are not in the place where you can stop yourself right now. Yeah. I'm going to help you. 

[01:08:29] Rachel: Yeah. And I think same like for people who have kids who are runners, right? Like, yeah. Nora was a runner and she hated holding my hand. Um, and there were times where I was just like, you can willingly hold my hand or I will carry you.

[01:08:45] And even if you're flailing and fighting me, I'm gonna keep carrying you because I'm gonna keep you safe. 

[01:08:52] Alyssa: Yeah, 

[01:08:53] Rachel: because she would just book it across the parking lot or book it down the beach, like just, yeah, well see ya. And she was fast like a gazelle and it was literally a safety issue. 

[01:09:05] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. I think a lot of people are afraid of like, what's this doing to my relationship with my kid and am I treating them with respect and they're a full human?

[01:09:14] When I was like, yeah, but no, with a fully developed prefrontal cortex, totally like they, and that's not gonna happen for a long time. You're gonna have to continue to step in and support them with boundaries when they can't support themselves. 

[01:09:26] Rachel: Ugh. 

[01:09:26] Alyssa: I know. Like, 

[01:09:27] Rachel: yes, it's happening right now with Nora. So Nora is 10 and I literally like in my mind the other day, had to say to myself like, my first job is keeping her safe.

[01:09:39] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:09:40] Rachel: Not keeping her happy because I have Oh, I know. But I hate it. It sucks. Wow. 

[01:09:49] Alyssa: And 

[01:09:49] Rachel: it's 

[01:09:49] Alyssa: the truest, my first job is keeping her safe, not keeping her happy. Put it on a billboard please. 

[01:09:57] Rachel: But I hate it so much. But, 'cause I said that sucks. I have to set a tech boundary and I really don't want to. Um, because I know it's gonna be like a back, it's just like, can you tell I'm just tired just thinking about it.

[01:10:09] Alyssa: Yeah, totally. 'cause you're like anticipating, you're like, I know it's gonna be a boundary to pushes, you know, I'm gonna have to hold space for those emotions that are coming up over and over and over. We recently switched to tech boundary where somehow we'd just gotten into this slippery space of, we'd gotten the, like Kindle fire.

[01:10:25] Like tablet a while ago for when we're on like road trips. And it was only something he'd get in like a long road trip. Mm-hmm. And then it started to be like, oh, when he stopped napping, he would like rest in his room and he could watch his tablet. He could watch like two shows on this tablet or whatever.

[01:10:43] Mm-hmm. And then he was waking beans up in the morning 'cause he was playing in his room when his light would come on. And she was waking up before she was ready. And so we were like, all right, you can watch a show in your room until she's awake and then you can, and then it just became like, oh, the tablet was just always.

[01:11:04] He was always on it and he was, it got to the point where he was going on YouTube instead of the downloadable things that we'd already put on there, and he would just skip from one to the next and whatever, not watching a full show. And I was like, yeah, we're gonna pull this back. Yep. And now when he wakes up, really this is self-protective, so he doesn't wake up beans.

[01:11:23] He can watch his tablet in his room until we say like, all right, she's awake. And um, it's like a show or whatever is length, although I'm sure he is still hopping around to things. Uh, he wears his little headphones and lays in bed. And then the other times, rest time and before bed, he watches his show and we put it on the tv.

[01:11:43] Mm-hmm. And. We recently went through this and he was so mad and he was like, this is how I do it. This is not my routine. Which judge? A classic sage line, 

[01:11:53] Rachel: love it. Hilarious. 

[01:11:56] Alyssa: It's less about I want the tablet and more like, you're changing my routine. 

[01:11:59] Rachel: Yeah. 

[01:12:00] Alyssa: Um, but yeah, and, and it, we were just like, yeah, we got to bite the bullet and he's gonna be mad for a little while and we're just gonna hold it.

[01:12:10] And he gets to be mad and we just let him know like. Yeah, this feels different. And we learned something new about your iPad is what he calls it. And it's not okay for your brain if you're switching between shows a lot. And it's really hard for your brain to control right now when you're four. So we're gonna put a show on the TV and you can hang out on the couch and watch that show while your sister has her bath and then you can head up.

[01:12:37] Right. And like he, and you don't have to watch a show like that's, you don't have to sit and watch it on the tv. You're still not gonna have your iPad for it. 

[01:12:48] Rachel: Uh, yeah. So it sucks. It sucks so much. So I, Nora is like super creative and so I had gotten, like her cousin had had this video editing app called Cap Cut.

[01:13:01] Fun. Yeah, I know it. Okay. So I'd gotten it for her and it had been fine for a while and it's on my phone. So she would just like use my phone and. So what I didn't realize about cap cut is there are like, um, templates that they can use that show like, like for making little dances. And so anyway, she was making dances with one of her friends and I was, she was showing me because, and she's still so innocent that she didn't even realize that it was like, not okay.

[01:13:28] So she shows me and um, I'm like, okay. So, um, like one thing that I want you guys to know is that if there's a dance where like your hands are, if you're copying a dance where like your hands are rubbing down your body, like that's not appropriate. Um, and they're just like, oh, okay. But then like, then I'm like, I go into cap cut and I'm like looking at the templates that are available and I'm just like, Ugh, this doesn't feel good to me.

[01:13:54] So the next time Nora like asked me for my phone, I was like, honey, I'm not really sure what to do about cap cut right now. And um, I'm like, I didn't realize that like there were things on there that you could access that. Just like your 10-year-old brain is not ready for. 

[01:14:09] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:10] Rachel: And I'm like, so I need to have some time to think about a different like way to allow you to be creative.

[01:14:16] And so she was like, beautiful way to say that. She was like, okay with that. And, 'cause I wasn't like, you're never using cap cut again. In the meantime she found like my old digital camera in the basement and has been like using that. And so I'm like, okay, this is good. Um, this is giving her like the similar dopamine experience that the video making was giving her.

[01:14:38] And Kaka is for sure gonna come back up and I'm gonna have to like reiterate like there are things on there that aren't appropriate and you know, I would be happy to tag team it with her and make something with her on Kaka or I can be like screening that for her, but that's not gonna be something that she can do.

[01:14:55] Without a grownup 

[01:14:56] Alyssa: independently. Yeah. 

[01:14:57] Rachel: Mm-hmm. Um, and similarly, we've also had conversations about the YouTube shorts. Yes. I just don't think that they're good for her brain. No. 'cause she's already so dopamine driven because of the A DHD situation that I'm just like, ah. Um, totally. So talk to her about that too, of like, we're gonna shift how we allow you to use YouTube and if you wanna watch long form videos on there.

[01:15:22] Uh, because like she loves Dude Perfect. And a couple of other like family bloggers that I'm totally fine with, but I'm not okay with just like scrolling the shorts. Totally. And so we also had that discussion. 

[01:15:34] Alyssa: Yeah. Well, and that's the part of like Jonathan Height's book that I find interesting is the way that it affects attention span when you're doing short form versus long form and the research around like.

[01:15:49] 20 somethings and teens, et cetera now, who can't sit down and watch a movie without checking their watch or checking their phone or start scrolling, whatever. The way it affects the attention span. And then it makes me think of like, okay, how does that affect the attention span in other spaces like school when we want them to maybe stretch the rubber band or do what in school, they often call a non-preferred task, right?

[01:16:14] Like you're gonna do for the rest of your life, of going to the grocery store, doing dishes, doing laundry, cleaning things up. Like are a lot of non-preferred tasks coming at you in life and do you have the capacity to navigate them? Or are you like squirrel? You know, like, I don't remember what I was doing or what I was supposed to do, or that you cannot focus because your attention is used to being pulled.

[01:16:39] Every 30 seconds or whatever. 

[01:16:42] Rachel: Totally. And like I feel it in myself and I'm an adult. Mm-hmm. Who can be like, oh no, this isn't a pattern that I wanna perpetuate. Like I need to set some boundaries here. Kids don't have that yet. Like we have to provide that for them. And I have to remind myself of that.

[01:16:55] 'cause I don't, it's hard to, because, right. Especially in the developing 

[01:16:59] Alyssa: brain, right? Like you feel it in yourself as an adult and you grew up without tech. Right. In the way that they have it now. Right. So you got to experience getting to a developed brain without this. 

[01:17:10] Rachel: Right. But it's hard because, especially with Nora now I'm feeling this like there's like the peer situation and I, thankfully a lot of my close friends are the parents of her friends and we've all agreed to limit tech.

[01:17:23] But even still, she has peers that she knows that are like using Roblox or who have sort of unlimited access to things like TikTok or Snapchat and like she's 10. 

[01:17:36] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. It's wild, right? So wild to navigate. Well, and I think, you know, earlier we were talking about the nervous system and I just remember that it might be helpful for folks, especially if you've got those toddlers right now, or teens, any age, human or yourself.

[01:17:52] Um, we have a free quiz. You can go to see quiz.com and understand your nervous system. We talked about neuro receptive sensitive humans and sensory seekers versus sensory sensitive humans. And the more you understand about their nervous system, the more helpful it's gonna be, whether they're a infant, a toddler, a 10-year-old, a teen, or it's you.

[01:18:12] And you can take that quiz as many times as you want for different aged humans, again, including for adults. So head over to seed quiz.com and snag that bad boy for free.