Helping Tweens Feel Secure in Their Changing Bodies with Dr. Hina Talib, MD

 Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

Alyssa: [00:00:00] You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today we're diving into a conversation that so many parents are craving, but often don't know how to start. I got to sit down with Doctor Hina Talib to talk about body image and development in the pre-teen years. Those ages 9 to 12, when so much is changing inside and out. We explored how to navigate this stage with empathy, how to foster open communication with kids around their bodies, and how to create a home environment where curiosity and big feelings are welcomed, not shut down. We also talked about the impact of societal pressures, how to model healthy relationships with food and body image, and when it might be time to bring in expert support. This episode is an invitation to show up with compassion for yourself and for your growing, not so little one as they move through this pivotal season of development. All right, folks, let's dive in.

Alyssa: [00:01:03] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the collaborative emotion processing method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.Let's dive in together.

Alyssa: [00:01:26] As we were writing Big Kids, we were talking about the like, body changes part of this age range. And it first of all brings me back to childhood, right? To think of like, oh, I remember this person like getting boobs young and being nowhere near that in my world, but then wanting and feeling like, oh, I'm supposed to have. And then was talking to a friend of mine about her 11 year old who really wants to, like, have big muscles right now because he's an athlete. And just how all of a sudden your body is a conversation and is out in the world in a way that in early childhood, it's not that they're not in that like body comparison, body change space. So excited to get to pick your brain and chat with you, kind of about what's coming up in this specifically like kind of 9 to 12 year old range. We hear a lot of it.

Dr. Hina: [00:02:25] Yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean bodies are such an important part of that 9 to 12 year old range changing bodies. Being sensitive to your body is a huge part of that. Early that and that age is so special. It's you know, people call it means they call it pre-teens. They call it on the edge of puberty, you know, all sorts of like, scary sounding cliffhanger y type of terminology to describe that, that like that pre pre pre stage. But it is such a wonderful stage. It really is like a launching pad and it can be so grounding. And I think especially for some of this body image, body work, body, just the way you even think about your body and what you highlighted the comparison. That part is so important to dig into, lean into in that age group because it'll set them up for the rest of their, you know, their more middle and their late adolescence years to because these there's threads of this that will go all the way through, clear through. Let's be honest, adults like there are.

Alyssa: [00:03:31] I was going to say still. Yeah.

Dr. Hina: [00:03:34] Yeah. Being body sensitive, body conscious, it goes on and on and on and on. And it's fueled, of course, by the milieu that we all live in and raise our kids in. And so I feel like through no fault of their own, our children are taught or we role model, you know, whether we mean to or not that this is an important thing that this is an okay thing for other people to talk about, and it's not. And so we really I think it's an important thing to get right or, or trend right or, you know, sure. You're not perfect. We're never going to be perfect parents, but but to trend right and be knowledgeable about is so important. So I'm so happy that you are picking my brain about this topic. Yeah, important to me. And I have a nine year old. I have a nine year old boy and a seven year old girl. So I am also in this, and it's an interesting place for me to be because I have spent 20 years taking care of only adolescents ranging from 10 to 25. So that's the life phase that I that I specialize in and I truly enjoy taking care of. And and my kids are also about to enter that special phase.

Alyssa: [00:04:42] Yeah. And I, I was thinking about it of like I was pregnant in and around the same time as Mandy Moore a couple times. And I just remember, like, watching her pregnant body grow and then have a baby and be in a totally different state than my postpartum body. And still in my late 30s, comparing my body to Mandy Moore's on social media. I'm like, what am I doing here? And so I'm wondering, like with our kids in this age range, I would love to sign up for a world where my kid's not comparing their body to somebody else, but is that a reality? Or are we learning how to, like, walk alongside them when comparison happens and support them through that?

Dr. Hina: [00:05:34] I think that our young people, 9 to 12 year olds who are noticing body differences, I think we got to give it to them like they are no dodos. They if they live in a larger body, they know it. And and tiptoeing around it or minimizing it in any way, you might miss an opportunity to either give them some positive role modeling, or to open up a line of connection where they might share how they're feeling about this, because the feelings are. So that's the important part. And that's why we wear our, you know, our ears have to be very big for whenever they do communicate and talk and share, you know, you just jump right in. You don't know when those moments are. And it's harder to find those moments sometimes. But if you do hear some of these comments, it's a great invitation sometimes to jump in and talk to them about it. But yeah, the body. I think that we should not minimize it or say, oh no, no you all turn out the same in the end or oh no, no, like, this is you know, we don't talk about this like, we just don't. We don't talk about other people's bodies, you know? Yes and.

Alyssa: [00:06:46] No. Like, you're so beautiful, like, you don't have to. And I'm like, Totally. And this is how I'm feeling right now. Like, I think you hit it on the head there of I think when we tried to make it go away, we ignore them. They're feeling and they don't feel seen in the feeling like, oh, when I say something to my mom about this or whomever, she just tells me that I'm beautiful and perfect the way that I am.

Dr. Hina: [00:07:12] Yeah, yeah, it's sort of. Yes, absolutely. And it's sort of like we we don't want to be body positive to a fault, and we don't want to be body critical to a fault. We want to be in open communication, and we want to be approachable by our young people when they have questions and when they see differences. And that I think being in that middle of the road is, is important. And honestly, even myself, probably at different phases of my career, thought I should lean to one side or the other more as a pediatrician. And I've learned working through families, that, you know, it's much better to be middle of the road and to be open, just to be open to see where the young person is going with whatever they might be bringing up or however they might be comparing themselves because it comes back to, well, how are they feeling about it? And from the standpoint, obviously, my job is to make sure that there isn't a reason why there's a difference in their puberty, timing and things like that. But once those things have been sort of put to bed or I'm not worried, then really the beauty of development is so cool. Puberty is actually so cool. The time and tempo of it is, is like this, this band that marches to this beat and but it can be different when they start. It's like a group project. Like, you know, it just it can start. Some groups take a long time to do their group project, and some groups like to do really, really fast and get through puberty really quickly. But you know, paediatricians are there to talk about development and to to let you know, okay, well, this is sort of in the normal range. And, and this is when we might say something is early or late or we're watching carefully. But but yeah, I think that kids are living in a different milieu than we did when we grew up. I mean, there are some dotted lines to, you know, our 17 magazine and other magazines that we had when we.

Alyssa: [00:08:57] Were.

Dr. Hina: [00:08:58] Giving us those pictures, and now the pictures are on social media and things, but it's a very important time to recognize, listen and lean in. Go ahead and lean in to these conversations as uncomfortable as they might make you. And when you have medical questions, those visits, those medical visits that you have between 9 and 12, sometimes they can feel kind of quick because it's like, oh, there's not that much to do, but this is the stuff to talk about. Changing bodies is a wonderful thing to talk about during this time.

Alyssa: [00:09:24] What does it look like? Because I'm thinking about, you know, my friend's 11 year old boy who is an athlete and wants to have bigger muscles, and how what he really wants is to be in the in group, right? He wants to feel included. He wants to feel like this is where he belongs. And he has this visual of what it's supposed to look like to be in this in-group. And so when he says things like for his birthday, he wanted like free weights to be able to like lift in whatever. And his mom was like, oh, totally. Like, that's a great thing to add to your birthday list. Why do you want weights? And he was like, well, I want to get stronger for basketball. And well, how do we lean into that? What are some appropriate ways to respond to that, that find that middle road that aren't just like, oh, you're strong, like you're already so strong or the other side of it that are like, yeah, you got to bulk up for basketball to be able to be successful. Like, what does it look like to find that middle ground? How can we respond in a way that really validates those feelings that they're experiencing around their body, changes and doesn't go to one side or the other of the spectrum? Of course, knowing sometimes we're we're going to.

Dr. Hina: [00:10:39] Yeah. I think that, as your friend did, beautifully. Why? Just just to just to keep keep the conversation going. So so, so you're interested in having more muscles? Okay. That's cool. Where is it coming from? Were you talking to your friends about this? Where were you reading about something about this? So just to really be just to ask some more open ended questions about where the information is coming from. And then, as you said, how is it making you feel? Is it related to a friends group? You know, in my line of work, I often also see it related to bets, especially with boys this age. There are there are little sort of group bets. Sometimes they're formal, sometimes they're not. But it's just sort of like, okay, and how many weeks can you get your muscles get this much bigger or you get abs, you know, when you pull up your shirt and they do talk about this sort of thing. And so so to understand where the motivation is coming from. But if it is function, if it is, they want to be stronger. That's a beautiful answer. Right. Because that's not a answer that's purely based on how they look. And sometimes the answer is there's multi-layers right A little bit I want this a little bit. I want this a little bit. I want to be better at basketball a little bit. I want to be stronger. A little bit. I want to be able to piggyback or carry my younger siblings. Like these are these are great actual goals.

Dr. Hina: [00:11:55] And so to understand their motivations in an open, non-judgmental way, one, you might discover something that does worry you and needs a little bit more follow up, which is very important to know. And two, you might you might actually sort of give them encouragement. Okay. Let's like maybe this is an opportunity to make a goal for something. And we want to do it in the safest way possible. So maybe we have some questions about, you know, sometimes some of these follow up questions I get from this age group when it's boys, you know, usually but girls too, it can be asking about supplements. It can be asking about how much protein they need. And so they get they can get pretty granular. And also, you know, I also go back to where where are you already learning about this? Because I'm so curious. Is it from a coach? Is it from classmates? Is it is it from a YouTube influencer that you are watching who's actually a grown man in a professional sport talking about their tips? And then it's like, okay, well, those tips are are potentially good for his audience. Who is his target audience? So you may not actually be his target audience. He might not be even knowledgeable about your changing body and what you need. But let's find you somebody who is. And so I really I really love getting into their their motivations and their sources of information that I find that to be very telling.

Alyssa: [00:13:13] Yeah. And I love that part in there that you added in of let's find someone who is knowledgeable here, that you can still be really interested in finding information on YouTube and finding an influencer who can speak to your space. And I think for a lot of us who didn't, I mean, I didn't grow up with social media, right? Like it wasn't in my space. And so the idea of almost a replacement influencer Answer is not what's going to come to mind for us. First and foremost, I think we're going to be like, yeah, stop getting your health information from YouTube, right? Might be our like initial reaction of like, that's not what. But if they're saying this is the avenue, I'm going to seek out this information, I'm giving them an appropriate outlet for that I think is pretty rad to a I think it's respectful of children to say, I'm not gonna just naysay the avenue that you're seeking this out in. And I was talking to a friend of mine who works for a news publication, and she was like, oh my gosh, it's so frustrating that, like most folks under a certain age bracket are getting their news from social media. And I was like, totally, yeah, she wants a world in which we go back to receiving it from the radio and print, like, yeah, we're not going. It's not trending that way. And so it how do we have accurate sources of information in the avenues where we are finding our information? I think that's a really cool thing to note in there, that it doesn't have to be a we can't watch YouTube influencers for medical information, but let's find ones that are speaking to your body type or the age group that you're in, etc..

Alyssa: [00:15:02] That's pretty rad. I love that note when it comes to we interviewed a bunch of kids and families and teachers for big kids. Yeah. And when we were interviewing the kids, specifically humans who would get periods, we had some questions around this. And one thing that kind of was the through line is a they obviously want to know when it's going to come. Right? In the same way that like at the end of my pregnancy, I was like, I'm going to be the only human who never delivers this child who both of my kids were well past their due date in quotes there, and Seiji was almost 42 weeks. And same with beans. And I remember every day after my due date just sobbing and being like, I'm never going to have this baby. Yeah. And I channeled that in the like, when is my period gonna come of, like, I'm going to be the only human who never gets a period? I could imagine being your thought process. If all your friends have it and you don't yet and you're like, when is it going to come? And why isn't this happening for my body or on the other side? Like, maybe you get it really young and the like, why is this happening for my body when nobody else has it yet? Those were kind of through lines in our kid interviews that were coming up. Was just that, like essentially, what's the right age? I'm supposed to be getting this, and how do I know when it's coming?

Dr. Hina: [00:16:32] Yeah, I do I have, I have the privilege of speaking with many fourth and fifth graders about changing bodies and about puberty in different sized groups, small groups and large groups. And so I've seen a lot of these similar questions being, you know, the quintessential question for early adolescents, maybe middle and late as well. Maybe all humans is am I normal? Like, am I okay and am I normal?

Alyssa: [00:17:00] And I think all humans.

Dr. Hina: [00:17:02] Yes. And so when your body is changing and your mind is developing at such rapid pace, you know, it's because your mind is developing at such rapid pace and you have the hormones of puberty are there that you are overly sensitive to your body changing because this is all happening at the same time, and your body changing is quite magnificent. I mean, it's like very strange to have this happen to you. And so we got to give it to them that of course they were going to be body sensitive. And of course they're going to be comparing their bodies because it's the biggest thing that's happening either to them or around them. And as you said, some kids are getting periods and are talking about it. Some kids are hiding it because they're so embarrassed, because no one else is having their period, and they don't have anyone to talk to about it. And and for other kids, they're sort of like, when am I going to get it? When is it my turn? I'm hearing about it on this and that and and at the crux of it, it's like you just you want to fit in and you want to be normal.

Dr. Hina: [00:17:53] You want nothing to be wrong with you. You know, parents, of course, want nothing to be wrong with your kids. But the kids do like, they want to be okay and normal. And so I think the more we educate and this goes to, you know, the importance of puberty education, but the more we are able to give kids a blueprint, a heads up, an outlet it is so, so important. And I, I cringe and I get I get really sad when we don't have access that all kids don't have access to puberty. Good puberty education. Because, as you said a little bit a heads up goes a long way and not it's incredible. If you could just say, oh, well, there's a range, you know, you can get your your period. Some people get their period at nine, some people don't get them till 16. Well that's really important to know because if you thought that everybody got it at 12 or 13 and there was nothing outside of that, you would feel that there was something wrong with you. And that's deeply upsetting. To, to anybody, but to in particular to kids at this age group.

Alyssa: [00:18:55] Yeah. And just like, for a long time. Feel that. Right. If you think you're supposed to get it at like ten, 11 and you're 14 when you get your period, that's 3 or 4 years that you have felt like your body's failing and not doing what it's supposed to do during such a formative time. And what a doozy to be like wrestling with.

Dr. Hina: [00:19:13] What a doozy. And so I think this is really, again, it's the importance of allowing time and space for education to talk about puberty and body changes and give them that, that heads up and that blueprint and then and then periodic check ins, which can happen at pediatricians offices. It can happen in schools. It can happen in mental health, like it can happen in all. It can happen, of course, at home.

Alyssa: [00:19:34] Of course.

Dr. Hina: [00:19:36] And so, yeah.

Alyssa: [00:19:38] I love Vanessa and Kara's work here, and they've been on the podcast a couple times. But for folks who are like, how do I talk to my kids about this? We have a couple podcast episodes that I'll drop in the show notes. But Vanessa Kroll Bennett and Cara Natterson have this is so awkward is their book and they have less awkward is just a whole platform where you can access you as the adult can come in and ask these questions to know, how do I support my kids? Phenomenal resources. There, as well as sex positive families. Melissa has a couple books that are really, really helpful in this. So if you are like, what are those questions and how do I find them? Those are two resources that we love here at seed. I'm curious slash dreading maybe the moment where I have to dive into with my kids the like how to talk about food stuff when it's maybe they we notice that they're going on a specific diet, or they're choosing not to eat foods, or they're referencing like, well, I have to have x amount of grams of protein. And we see them getting really intentional, maybe about their food. I think this can bring up a lot of stuff, especially for those of us that grew up heavy in diet culture. Yeah. What does it look like to respond to our kids? Because I think it's super cool to also like be a I mean, I was an athlete and with like, pound chicken tenders and fries and a milkshake after school and then go try and play a soccer game. Right. Like, I think it's also cool to understand how your body works and what might fuel it. Yeah. And I imagine there's quite a spectrum here of like, how much should we be talking about this? What is the like kind of line for us as parents to be like, we might want to seek out outside support.

Dr. Hina: [00:21:33] Yeah. You know, I think that if listen my seven almost eight year old said something about is this a healthy food or proclaimed oh this is a healthy food. And I literally was like what do you mean by that. What is that? What do you mean by healthy? And I was like, okay, chill. Like she just asked, you know, like that's not it's not a dangerous question. And I shouldn't immediately jump to thinking that that she is going down a path of no return where she might be overthinking.

Alyssa: [00:22:03] Totally.

Dr. Hina: [00:22:03] I'm the one who's overthinking. So there again. They are in a world, this modern world that we live in, where there is a we, we, we all live in diet culture. And there's a resurgence now of diet.

Alyssa: [00:22:16] Culture.

Dr. Hina: [00:22:17] And wellness industry complex being really out there when it comes to weight loss specifically. So so that so that is the world that they're living in that we are living in as as a parents and that they are living in as young people. And so. That being said, they're going to pick up on protein and creatinine and sugar and dieting and all of this. And so I think that it goes back to the okay, they they say something and they're saying something often because they're being thought they're trying to be thoughtful about it. And they've they've gotten information from somewhere, they've internalized it, and they've made a plan of like, this is what I'm going to do, which is actually kind of cool that these processes happen. So then it's sort of like, okay, dissect, break it down again. Like, where did the information come from? What's the motivation, how are they feeling. And then help them. Because that plan, you know, their motivation might be a very valid and valuable goal. And so we just want to course correct with good information and good modeling and also doing things with them, like if they are if they need, if they're a sports kid. Right. There's a whole world of sports dieticians out there and really good important information to get to them to be able to. And it's all about the we know, the way we talk about that. It's all about fueling your body to have the energy that it needs to perform and to get through your sport to stay hydrated as well as to get the food that you need.

Dr. Hina: [00:23:39] And so that that resonates with a lot of young athletes, right. Like they the words performance resonates with them and the word energy and fuel like that, that really works for them. And I think that there's I think that you can do that without worrying that you're tiptoeing. I think you can talk about food with athletes and not worry that you're going to spill over into or open doors or create a problem that wasn't there before. I think they're already thinking these things and may have these questions. I think in other situations when you are worried, right, you're sort of like, this is when parents are so important. Parents are my front line. So, you know, if your child is saying something about eating or not eating or restricting or dieting and it doesn't feel quite right, like it's sort of. It's not the sort of innocent. They got information, they made a plan, and they're talking. They're testing it by like saying talking about it in front of me. You know, it feels a little bit more pressured or a little bit more. It's coming from a place of shame or fear or deep comparison. You know, something in you is like, oh, I don't I don't know that I feel good about, you know, so that you then you do lean in and you do ask them more questions and you do make sure that you're not missing anything when it comes to patterns that might be a little bit too rigid or too restrictive or unhealthy.

Alyssa: [00:24:57] Awesome. Okay, I love this because I think we have gotten far away from our intuition of like, what is coming up for me here? And even if you don't know the answer, just noticing I've noticed a change in my kid, or in the way that they're asking questions, and to recognize that noticing that is the first step and that is your intuition. We are the experts on our kids, right? Yeah, a million times over. We're the expert on our kids. Yes and.

Dr. Hina: [00:25:32] No. No little clip that you hear from us on social media or reading in a book is gonna diagnose your kid, or is going to give you the full answers. We are here to hopefully make you think about your parenting and your kid, but it is really your parenting and your kid. And the other thing Alyssa, is sometimes I find that and I mean, it happens for me too. Like I get triggered by the word healthy, right? Yeah. I think that we bring a lot to the table when it comes to food and food conversations and our children, you know, it may we may have been raised where we didn't have food, like, food was a little bit more scarce. And so our mindset with food is one way about finishing your plate. You have to finish your plate. We don't waste any food this or that. You may have been raised in a food environment where it was more restrictive and it was more there was more conversation about calories and about what's on your plate and and should that be on your plate or not. So it. We bring a lot of baggage, I think, when our kids are talking about food. And to your point, your intuition also has to be about ourselves. We have to know that we are reacting to something because because we were hurt or we experienced something that was challenging when we grew up. And I, you know, one of my number one rules that I try to tell parents when it comes to food and body is don't call out physical aspects of your children and.

Alyssa: [00:26:55] Give us some examples of that.

Dr. Hina: [00:26:56] Yeah. And to the best of your ability, don't let others either. Relatives.

Alyssa: [00:26:59] Sure.

Dr. Hina: [00:27:00] So you'd be surprised. But like especially around holiday times when people haven't seen each other and they're getting together for meals and things, you'd be surprised how normal it is for people who are parents and older generations to sit there and say, oh my God, you got so much taller. Oh my God, you've developed or oh my God, your voice changed or none of this needs to be said. There's really basically no good necessarily can come of commenting on another person's appearance. You wouldn't do that to a coworker, and if you did that to like a sibling, you'd probably get yelled at. So like, you know, there's there's like you don't comment on other people's bodies.

Alyssa: [00:27:35] I think, though, there's been this idea that you can do it if it's, quote, positive, right? Like, oh, wow, you look like you lost weight or oh, that dress looks so good on you. And what we in my co-author of Big Kids, Rachel, who will do the breakdown of this episode with me. She has shared this before, but she she had stage four cancer by the time she found out she had cancer. And leading up to her diagnosis, she got the most positive comments she's ever gotten on her body because she was the thinnest she'd been since having a kid. Cancer was overtaking her body, and that was leading to her being the size that she was. And everybody's comments were so positive about how great she looked and how much weight she'd lost. And there's, I think this idea. Right. And then. And then when the comments go away and nobody's saying them anymore, then you're like, oh wait, have I gained weight, am I do I not look good? Right. If you're if you are commenting from like this positive light in quotes, then at some point when you aren't, then people are looking for that external feedback loop still of wait, why is nobody saying anything about how I look now? Is there something wrong with me now? And how we can create this like need for the external feedback loop for the internal to be like, okay, yeah, no, I'm still fly.

Dr. Hina: [00:28:54] Yeah. I just I hear you and I it makes me feel even more strongly that just no reason, no good or you can't win any favors. No good will come of commenting on other people's bodies.

Alyssa: [00:29:07] 100%.

Dr. Hina: [00:29:08] That it's something that we need to do better as parents. Because I hear from the kids, I mean, most of my career is listening to teenagers without the parents there because I have my time with them. And and I will tell you that everybody, every parent these days will tell me, oh, it's social media. Oh, it's social media. That's where the body image stuff is coming from. And that's where, you know, whatever the ten different big risk behaviors, it's always the culprit is always social media. And many times that's true. Many times it's things that were said to them that they internalized and took a certain way from a loved one, including parents and other relatives. So I do think we we have to do a little bit better when it comes to talking about bodies and food and modeling that, but also just, again, being open because when they some of these questions are just are natural. It's the world that they live in. They hear about reading food labels. They hear about you know, I guess they're bringing back the physical fitness tests in schools, which I don't feel good about at all. But but like, this is the world that they are in. And so.

Alyssa: [00:30:10] Yeah, well, it was the world we were in. It's the world of social media.

Dr. Hina: [00:30:14] It'd be like it's making a untoward comeback.

Alyssa: [00:30:17] Yeah, but what do you do when you, like, have that? Because I, I'm glad you brought up the intuition part about, like. Yeah, I wrote in Tiny Humans, but sometimes I open my mouth and my mom comes out and like, sometimes it's great. Sometimes I absolutely want to pass it on, but, like, sometimes I don't. So what do you do with those times? And when you notice that part of you that is like, oh, this is baggage I'm carrying, but what about when you're like, no, okay, I've got that part in check. Something just feels off or scary or like, this is going down a path where I don't feel well resourced and I don't know what to do next. What are your next options? If you're nervous about anything related to their body, their body changes the way that they're talking about their body changes. Any restrictive food or anything like that. You might be seeing kind of what's next?

Dr. Hina: [00:31:08] Yeah. So I, I think that we for much of this conversation, we've been talking about the worried well, which was something a term we use in pediatrics where because of course we worry a lot, but sometimes there's no problem or it's the range of normal development. Normal development has this big, beautiful range, but sometimes it's real meaning there is a medical condition, a hormonal condition, a genetic condition. Sometimes it is important to to get to the root cause of these. A crazy word to get to what might be altering their pubertal timing or tempo or when it comes to food, like, yeah, eating disorders are a thing, right? And they're, they're more recognized now than they were before. And again, I think they're very they're more timely now because of the world that we live in and the world that our kids are in. And so we do need to be very attuned to it. And I again, parents are the first line. So if you that's it. If you sort of are like, I feel like this is a little bit too rigid, like, yes, we were working on quote unquote being healthy. And perhaps one of those goals were to have dessert, you know, only a few nights a week instead of. But when it becomes like, we have cut out sugar and you're a ten year old, that's that's not even medically sound advice, right? Like, you can't cut out sugar or you shouldn't. But when a ten year old takes to a plan that isn't medically sound like, for example, cold turkey cutting out certain foods or food groups and is very rigid about it.

Dr. Hina: [00:32:44] Like we'll get distressed if that rule that they've set for them isn't able to be accommodated. And this, this parents really notice this when they're traveling together or when they're at other people's houses with their kids. You know, when you're when they're out of their element and with when you have more family time, you sometimes pick up on, oh, wow. This is really like a thing that they can only eat certain foods, or that they won't eat entire food groups, or that they won't eat certain meals. And and so just, you know, I think again, you're you are the first line. And if you feel like something is out of balance, too rigid, doesn't feel quite right. The feelings behind the choices that they're making are heavy. Where they are sad, they are lonely. They're feeling shameful. They don't want to talk about it. They clam down. Then you. Then it is important to get help. And when it comes to help, this is where pediatricians are super helpful. Adolescent medicine specialists like myself live in this world, and we are very happy to tease things out with you to see whether it is just a matter of they don't have the right information and they're goal oriented kids and they need they need the right information, and we can course correct. Or whether it's a little bit deeper and it has become what we call with eating disorders, a bully in the brain, you know, where they are. Literally their brain is telling them that they look a certain way, that they need to do certain things. And and we need to help them kind of fight back on that.

Dr. Hina: [00:34:08] But you need help for that. You need a whole team for that. So it can be a pediatrician, it can be an adolescent medicine specialist, it can be a counselor. It can be a school counselor. School school counselors are also frontline to these things. Oftentimes you have good athletic coaches who also you know, because you're if you are worried you want to seek help, you also want to collect some information. Is it just me? Is it in my head? Does my partner or co-parent or other people who are helping care give for my. Do they also have that, that that sort of feeling that there might be something imbalanced here? And then you want to see, is it only at home or is it in other places in their worlds too? Is it at school? Is it with friends? And so you're collecting some information and you're taking that information to someone who has expertise in this. Again, whether there's a pediatrician, dieticians can be helpful, but really it's it's you just want to go to somebody who is well versed in this, in this age group, too. I oftentimes find that families will say, oh, well, I'll take them to my therapist or my dietician or my physical trainer, and it's sort of like, that's great, but if at all possible, if I could put a plug in to actually find somebody who specializes in in children and in teenagers you will see a huge difference in how they approach your child, how they even ask the questions. And the advice that they give will be more medically sound.

Alyssa: [00:35:28] I love that so much. And the like just reality that these kids are not one size fits all. And so when we can gather data, it's such a regulated approach to say like, all right, I'm gonna data gather, whether it's checking in with the humans around me who are helping to raise this kiddo to see what their experience is or what they've noticed and really tease out to get to the root of it. I think that's so rad. And we do we do some we do consulting work, we do work in schools, and then we do work privately with some families. And that's exactly what we're doing is like coming in and like, I just need we need to gather some more data so that we can have a full picture of who this human is and what's coming up. I think we can very quickly, as parents, jump to the anxiety path like this needs to stop now. And we can spiral without the data gathering, which really regulates our nervous system and gives us more information about this whole child. And I look at my two kids who I have an autistic child and I have a neurotypical child, and the way that they navigate the world is very different. And the questions they ask, their relationship to food is different even from a sensory perspective. Right? And so when we are looking at our kids in front of us, understanding who is the child in front of me is so huge.

Alyssa: [00:37:00] And I have found actually social media to be a really hard place for this when it comes to food, let's say specifically for my autistic child that be like, oh, throw dessert on their plate and they can choose what they eat and how much and whatever. It works really well for my neurotypical kid. She will seek out food that is going to nourish her. She can do the how much do I need, whatever. And my autistic child does really well without all of that presented at one time. And instead, like, here are foods that fuel your body. Here are foods that fight germs in your bodies, here are foods, and we're going to go through them kind of in a separate order that he needs to know what's going to give me energy, what's going to fight the germs, whatever. And that for him is really helpful before he consumes sugar. That's in like an M&M or whatever. And given just the free for all of all of it, that doesn't work well for him. Yeah. And it's something that I feel like social media, at least for me, had like pulled me away from my intuition that I had to kind of shut off a lot of accounts to come back to my intuition.

Dr. Hina: [00:38:09] Yes. Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned this. We're we're on a tangent, but I think it's important if parents are listening. I have, as a parent, felt this too. I consume a lot of social media. I enjoy it, I professionally am on social media, and I have a lot of colleagues on social media, and I like to support people's work. And I feel like a few years ago I hit a I hit a place where I too, I was being influenced and not inspired and exactly what you said. My intuition was being chipped away into parenting comparison with all this content that I was getting. And at the end of the day, it really like, if we could say this a thousand times, it really is about parenting the child in front of you and don't necessarily go off of these you know, snippets that you might get from short form content. It's much better to read books like Alice's Amazing book and to and to listen to podcasts where we can get into nuance, but I think the very short form clips is in getting much of it, like a lot of it, a lot of different sources all at once really does chip away at our intuition. And that is that is a big problem for a lot.

Alyssa: [00:39:23] It's huge.

Dr. Hina: [00:39:23] There's a lot of health behaviors.

Alyssa: [00:39:25] Yeah, I thank you. It's validating to know like you also experience that. Yeah I had to literally like mute things or I was like, you know what? I love that that you were getting influenced, not inspired. What a great line. And I think being able to kind of check in with ourselves like, oh, is this because there is definitely short form content even, that I consume and I'm like, oh, that was inspired. Like that's a different way I can do this. That would be awesome for her, for him or whatever. Whichever, kiddo. But it was when I was like, oh, I'm supposed to be doing this, but that's not working for him. That I had to just, like, mute and come back to myself.

Dr. Hina: [00:40:03] Yeah. And so you're. And you're bringing up a great point for, you know, neurodivergent kiddos. All of the advice that you get for food and body, you have to understand it may not be relevant at all, actually. And so it's important to really again, know know the kid in front of you. You know, there's a lot of sensory kiddos. There's a lot of food battles when it when it can it.Can be health related. But it comes out like food is the battle that the battlefield of choice. And so there's just it can be it can be quite, quite challenging. But the important thing is to, you know, your kid wants to know if they're normal or not. Our job is to not miss anything medical or interventional or, and or keep them safe. And so with those things in mind, like we want them to be educated, we want them to be safe. We want their questions to be answered. We have to bring that game forward to them when it comes to body image and food and lean on expert resources in person or or one on one if not in person. But don't rely on sort of mass produced advice for for specific topics.

Alyssa: [00:41:12] Yeah, I love that. Oh, I love you. I feel like I could pick your brain forever. I, I, I love how balanced it is that, like, sometimes it's interminable. Sometimes it's the right information. Like when I thought that a tampon would just, like, get sucked up into my body if I just, like, fired it at my vagina and had to learn from Denzel that that's not how tampons work. Thanks, Kate Ansel, for that hot tip that sometimes it really is just like the right information and how comforting that can be that even for us as the adults that the kids are saying, am I normal? But we're saying like, am I doing this right? Like, have I given them enough? Have I totally failed? And my kids going off the deep end and your approach and your advice is just so regulated and grounded and diverse. And I so deeply appreciate that about you. Thank you so much for doing this work and being in this space. Can you share where people can find you on social media? Learn from you?

Dr. Hina: [00:42:13] Yeah, I have a account on Instagram which is at teamhealth. Doc, that is usually where I have most of my information shared. I have a website as well, but you can if you follow me and see me there on Instagram. I do read all my messages. I. I hear so much from my audience and it actually has really shaped how I take care of teens and how I advocate for teens in larger spaces and teen health and larger spaces. So I do love the audience that we have there.

Alyssa: [00:42:42] Love.

Alyssa: [00:42:43] Thank you. Thanks for doing this work. You're the bomb. Thanks for the.

Dr. Hina: [00:42:45] Time and thanks for your amazing work. And congratulations on this, this book. I'm so very excited for everybody to read it.

Alyssa: [00:42:52] Thank you. Stay tuned. After this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

Alyssa: [00:43:04] I want to learn more about sensory profiles in cognitive flexibility, because we've seen qualitatively that folks who are more sensory sensitive can also have a harder time with cognitive flexibility. Like there is for folks who are new to cognitive flexibility. There's like plan A for them and accessing plan B or plan C is really tough. I see this with my son. I see it with my husband who are both sensory sensitive, where just the other day we had our dinner plan set. We set it on Sunday nights and we do our grocery order based off of that. And then we forgot to defrost the chicken the night before for dinner. And I went to make dinner and we had no defrosted chicken and had to make a different plan. And I'm like, okay, cool. I'm like looking through. I'm like, okay, I have to get the kids food first because they're gonna be hungry in a disaster and we can figure out something for me and Zach. And Zach had to just, like, walk away because the whole thing was too stressful for him to navigate and to figure out. We've seen this a lot in schools, too, with our sensory sensitive kids, where they have a plan for what's going to happen or how something's going to go down. And when that plan is derailed and they have to go into plan B, it's really tough for them.

Rachel: [00:44:30] Yeah. Also, I'm interested in your because we're piggybacking off of technical issues that got got me all sweaty before this. And like so in that example, because I feel like this is something I struggle with is like cognitive flexibility, but only in certain areas like that scenario that you just described where like, dinner plan A doesn't work. That does not stress me out. I'm like, cool, I'll throw something together from the cabinet.

Alyssa: [00:44:55] It's also a skill set you have. You unlike maybe anyone I've ever. Well, Kara, who's a chef, doesn't count. But other than chefs in my life, you, unlike anyone I've ever met, can look at a pantry or a cabinet and whip something up. Like I've been at your house and you're like, oh, I want a sweet treat. And you just look at ingredients and pull together like an absolutely delicious, like, almond flour cake or whatever. And I'm like, what.

Rachel: [00:45:22] Is my comfort zone?

Alyssa: [00:45:24] Yeah, I'm like trying to make cookies from a box. And I have to very intently read the instructions and still probably mess it up.

Rachel: [00:45:32] It's from a box.

Alyssa: [00:45:35] And so I'm just like, you have probably practiced that so many times that accessing plan B or plan C feels really accessible.

Rachel: [00:45:45] Yeah. Versus tech where I'm like, nope, I give up and.

Alyssa: [00:45:49] There is no solving this.

Rachel: [00:45:51] This is I'm losing my job.

Alyssa: [00:45:52] Yeah, that's right. We are not going to be able to do this. Sorry. I know we had this really big project planned, but this one part's not working. Even though I tried it the same way seven times and it's still not working. So we're not going to be able to do this project. And we're like, okay, cool. Let's let's take a step back and take a look at it another way. And here we go. Now it's working. And it is like places where you don't have a lot of reps. Cognitive flexibility is tougher.

Rachel: [00:46:20] Yeah. Yep.

Alyssa: [00:46:21] That's me. True for all of us on some degree that I do think that's one of my strengths in life though is cognitive flexibility.

Rachel: [00:46:30] I do too, because I think for you, you're energized by like, oh, this is a problem to solve. I'm not energized. I'm immediately drained.

Alyssa: [00:46:39] Right, right, right. That's so true. I'm like, ooh, this is a systems challenge. Let's go. How do we I, I believe that every problem is solvable. That's like where I come to life at. And so it's I get to be a detective and just figure out how do we solve this?

Rachel: [00:46:56] And we are so different in our work, like our approach to work and the areas where we like really feel energized. I feel like we're a good complement to each other, a great compliment. Yeah. I in no world am I like, oh, my microphone won't work. What a fun challenge. I'm like, I don't have time for this. This is irritating me and I'm sweating. I need to take my sweatshirt off immediately.

Alyssa: [00:47:21] Although it doesn't always feel like a fun challenge, but it does. There is something energizing about it. I was just talking to an assistant principal, and we've got a kiddo with some complex stuff going on, and they've tried a few different things and my brain couldn't shut off just thinking about like, what haven't we tried to get at the root of this? Like, what is really driving this and what's accessible to us in this environment or that environment that would be helpful for them. Like that lights me up.

Rachel: [00:47:53] Yeah, totally.

Alyssa: [00:47:54] Yeah, I could see how that would be draining for other people.

Rachel: [00:47:58] I mean, I also sometimes do like, especially like because behavior in the nervous system are fascinating to me. I could see myself, like enjoying sitting down with you and like, looking at this kid's profile and being like, all right, what potential needs are still unmet here? Like what? What's going on? It's like a puzzle. So like that stuff like the brain science I can get behind, but like, give me a computer or a spreadsheet and I'm like, I'm gonna set it on fire.

Alyssa: [00:48:23] So good. I yesterday was feeling stressed, and I was like, I just need to get into a spreadsheet. Like, you just need to play in a spreadsheet where everything is predictable and everything does then happen for a reason.

Rachel: [00:48:41] I never used the word play and spreadsheet in the same sentence.

Alyssa: [00:48:47] I love myself a spreadsheet. I. Just lost my train of thought.

Rachel: [00:48:55] You wanted to play. You were stressed. You wanted things to be predictable. You couldn't wait to get into a spreadsheet.

Alyssa: [00:49:03] Oh, man. I don't know what's gone, but those are all true.

Rachel: [00:49:07] I'm gonna start labeling our spreadsheets like Alice's Playground.

Alyssa: [00:49:13] I do, I love it. It feels just predictable for me. I'm like, I, I think I would have really enjoyed being an engineer.

Rachel: [00:49:21] You have such a stem brain. It's wild to me.

Alyssa: [00:49:24] You know, what's so crazy is that I didn't know that until I was, like, at least 30.

Rachel: [00:49:31] That is.

Alyssa: [00:49:31] So we also grew up in a time where women in Stem was so rare. It was not something where anyone was like, wow, your brain really understands this stuff or sees these things or works this way. When it came to Stem. Now it's so rad. Like that would feel so foreign to Gen Zers and. Right. Those are the ones below us and Alpha and whatever that.

Rachel: [00:49:56] I can't keep track.

Alyssa: [00:49:58] Yeah.

Rachel: [00:50:00] But girls right now are very much encouraged to explore and.

Alyssa: [00:50:04] Yeah, and they see other people in Stem like other females in Stem, thanks to people like Reshma Saujani with Girls Who Code, who really has changed the narrative on a lot of that jazz.

Rachel: [00:50:15] Yeah, for.

Alyssa: [00:50:16] Sure. Reshma. Speaking of people who have changed the narrative on things, I am obsessed with this human we get to chat about today. We get to talk about Doctor Hina Talib, who is a Stem badass.

Rachel: [00:50:30] Totally. And this episode is so good with so many gems. And what I really appreciated from her, which you pointed out is how regulated her approach is, even when there are concerns, or we're not really sure why something might be going on in a kid's body that, like she has a regulated and systematic way of kind of going through to excavate what's happening for this kid. And it's not like, oh my gosh, everybody panic. Like they're not growing the way they're supposed to grow or X, Y and Z isn't happening. Like, why isn't puberty starting or whatever? It's very like, okay, yeah, this is a little bit outside of the range of normal and we can figure it out. And here are the steps we'll take to do that. I think as a parent it can be very stressful if you feel like your child's provider does not have that sort of like calm, reassuring, like we're going to figure this out together. And anything having to do with like growth or puberty or weight or body changes can be so triggering that I just love how like reassuring and calm And this is a solvable problem. Kind of a vibe that she has.

Alyssa: [00:51:48] Yeah. She gets to be the detective. She. I think she and I share that similarity of fascination with humans and seeing that, oh, there's something causing this or there's something going on here. And I'm curious about it. I'm not panicked by it. It isn't stressful for me. I'm curious. And I want to learn more so that we can figure this out together. Seems to be how she approaches her work and probably the world. As a human who shares a similar type of brain. And that is so reassuring when you are turning to someone, in this case, a pediatrician, where you might be feeling overwhelmed by the matter at hand of, you know, if you feel like your child might be struggling with an eating disorder or they are Navigating the challenges of living in a body on planet Earth, and you're feeling stressed or triggered by it. To have someone to turn to who isn't also stressed or triggered by it yeah, is so rad. I think it's really important that she acknowledges, like she doesn't see her work as just work with the child, but that it's work with the family. It's that whole family system that if she can support the adults in their lives to be able to support that child, her work goes far outside that appointment.

Rachel: [00:53:20] Absolutely. I think about so I dealt with anorexia as a child, and I remember, like my parents bringing me to the pediatrician and the whole diagnosis process, and the pediatrician was very much like wound up about it and was like, yeah, no, she needs to come in every two weeks to be weighed. Like, here's what needs to happen. This is a big deal. Yada yada yada. And like my parents knew it was a big deal. That's why they were bringing me to the doctor. What they needed to hear was like, totally, your concerns are valid. And like, we're going to figure out how to get your kid back on the right track and we can get her healthy again. This isn't forever, and that's not what they received. And so that trickled down at home where when I was like, I can't eat that because it has too many grams of fat, my mom went into a panic.

Alyssa: [00:54:10] Yeah. What a great like, metaphor or analogy for just parenting in general when like, a kid's having a hard time, how what they need from us is to be their consistent, calm, regulated leader. That when they are panicked, when they are like, oh my gosh, I'm not invited to this thing where I didn't make the team or I wasn't starting, or I didn't get to play, or I am not going to get this lead role in the play, and we are panicked, and then we're calling somebody's parent, or we're calling the coach, or we're calling the school, and we're we're in this panic. We're sending them the message. Yeah, you should be panicked about this, right? This is not okay. And you cannot survive this. And when they're met with somebody who's compassionate and takes their feelings seriously and their experience seriously and validates it, but isn't panicked and trying to fix it or make it go away, it's a game changer for their anxiety and their regulation in response.

Rachel: [00:55:16] Absolutely.

Alyssa: [00:55:18] It's so hard to do that. I feel like, especially as they get older, when they're younger, we expect them to feel hard things. We're like, they're gonna feel sad. We're gonna feel disappointed when we leave the playground or whatever. And it feels like small potatoes for us. And so I think it's often easier for us to not join their chaos. And then as they get older and they're being left out of things, people are making fun of them. They're talking about their body. Or I was laying in bed with Sadie. I think I shared this on the pod where I had fallen asleep next to him for the first time in, I don't know how long, and he's my little spoon and he's holding my hand. And I started sobbing, and I had this moment where I was like, someday somebody is going to probably say something or do something to intentionally make him feel bad because they don't know what to do with their feelings. And the idea that somebody might actually hurt his body, like somebody might punch him one day or hit him one day. And I'm just full sobbing because that feels way harder than somebody bit him at childcare. He's been hit. He's hit by a sister almost every day. Right now. It feels different when they're four and 2 or 5 and two or whatever. Then it does when they're nine.

Rachel: [00:56:47] It really does. So yesterday we stayed after school for the. My nephew was playing in a playoff game and tons of people from school were saying so, like the kids friends were there or whatever. And Nora, who is almost 11.

Alyssa: [00:57:05] Was just nuts, by the way.

Rachel: [00:57:08] I know, like, have I been a parent for this long?

Alyssa: [00:57:11] Yeah.

Alyssa: [00:57:13] Okay. Keep going.

Rachel: [00:57:14] Yeah. So she was feeling left out like her best friend was hanging out with another girl. And I don't know that they were intentionally leaving Nora out, but they also weren't, like, pulling her into the fold. And so to her, that was rejection.

Alyssa: [00:57:31] And totally.

Rachel: [00:57:32] Then on top of that, she got in a fight with her cousin, who she's very close with, and he was telling her that she was being annoying, which, like, was likely true. But she. Because she really likes rejection.

Alyssa: [00:57:45] Round two.

Rachel: [00:57:46] Totally. Because she likes to be in control. And so I don't think that she was allowed to be in control. And her cousin was like, annoyed by her trying to control the situation. So she was just like, stop, whatever. But so then she was rejected twice. So I, like checked in with her and she didn't really want to tell me what was going on at the time. So I was just like, okay, she was in the car doing homework, whatever. So what sucked, though, was that by the time she was able to like, reintegrate and play again, it was time for us to leave and it wasn't going to be like a flexible timing, like we needed to leave. So that really triggered like a spiral for her. And then when she got in the car, she was sharing all of these, like, social things with me. And it is so different than like when you see a toddler, like push or hit the other one, you're just like, okay, yeah, they just don't have the skill set yet. They don't have the impulse control. It doesn't feel malicious in the same way that like. And I'm not saying these kids are being malicious, but that feeling of like, dang, my kid was left out by her 11 year old peers and then was called annoying by another one. And like that just digs in a way that it doesn't.

Alyssa: [00:58:50] It feels intentional in a way that it doesn't when they're younger.

Rachel: [00:58:54] Yeah.

Alyssa: [00:58:55] It's really and sometimes it is intentional. Sometimes it is like, I don't want you to be a part of this thing for a vast number of reasons.

Rachel: [00:59:04] Totally. Or like, yeah, you are being annoying.

Alyssa: [00:59:06] Yeah. Right. Exactly. And it sucks to watch our kids feel excluded. So much like that is one that is. It's a really tough one for me.

Rachel: [00:59:23] It's hard for me too. And knowing that, it's not like if you ask Nora what her hardest emotions are, she will say embarrassment and being left out.

Alyssa: [00:59:31] Same and and sadness for me.

Rachel: [00:59:33] And so like knowing that that's like her hardest thing to experience. It just sucks to just be a bystander and like and knowing like I've chatted with her about this before and she and I agree on this, that like me stepping in at this point in her age would.

Alyssa: [00:59:49] Not helpful.

Rachel: [00:59:50] Make it worse. Like, oh, Nora has to get her mom to stick up for her, right? Like it's not going to help. My job is to help Nora figure out how to navigate it. But like, in the.

Alyssa: [01:00:00] End, to be with those emotions.

Rachel: [01:00:02] Totally. Just let her, like, vent and cry in the car while we're driving and let it all out and feel it and whatever. And but there's part of me, there's this part of me, and it's smaller now than it used to be. There's this part of me that just wants to be like, you guys can just play together. Like, just. Yeah, just be nice. Like that phrase that I heard growing up.

Alyssa: [01:00:22] Stop being a bitch and just include her, right?

Rachel: [01:00:24] Like that's what wants to come up. And. Yeah, that didn't come up for me when she was a toddler. And there were, like, playground squabbles, you know?

Alyssa: [01:00:33] Totally, totally. And I think about that with Hanna's work, that she is supporting kids in all these different stages, and especially as they get older, so much of it is supporting the families and how to support their kids. And I think she does such a beautiful job of that in her work and in her approach. And I'm grateful to get to know her and call her a friend and get to collaborate with her. I wonder if you're tuning in to this and you feel like, yeah, that's not what I have in a pediatrician. If there are options in your area to change, to switch, to, say, I'm going to find somebody who I feel supported by as a parent. I think it's worth the switch if that's an option. I mean, I grew up in an area where there are so few options, such a small town. We had one pediatrician in our town. You could go to the town next to us and things like that, but that was that was it. So he was here. He was your guy.

Rachel: [01:01:43] Hope you like him.

Alyssa: [01:01:44] Yep. And I hope you want to see his face everywhere else. Because it's a small town. You're gonna. And and it can feel awkward to then switch and be like, yeah, we're going someplace else. And we live in this small town, and I'm going to keep seeing you. And so I recognize all the feelings and privilege that comes with switching your pediatrician. And I just want to give you permission if that's what feels like the right thing to do for you as a parent, that that's worth it. And hopefully folks can take away the value of being the calm in your kid's storm when their storms are brewing because they, more than anything, need somebody who's regulated and is sending the message, we can handle this. This is figureoutable. I do think the reason I have the cognitive flexibility I have is, in part, my temperament and my nervous system. And in another part, I have no recollection of an anxious response from them, from anything from my childhood, which is so privileged.

Rachel: [01:02:52] That is so wild to me.

Alyssa: [01:02:56] They would get they would disconnect more than anything. They go, they both shut down more than they get big or anxious. So it didn't always have secure attachment, but I didn't experience them in panic over anything of mine. And so I do think one of the messages that I received growing up was, we can figure this out.

Alyssa: [01:03:22] This is Figureoutable, and I'm grateful for that.

Rachel: [01:03:26] Yeah, that's a gift for sure.

Alyssa: [01:03:29] Such a gift. Such a gift. And also, there are challenging parts of a shutdown, too, just in case folks are like, wow, that sounds glorious. Didn't have that. I'm like, yeah. And I shut down more than I am anxious.

Rachel: [01:03:44] I do.

Alyssa: [01:03:44] Not disconnect.

Rachel: [01:03:46] I used to be very. Yeah, because I will because I'm like, I don't want to show that I'm feeling anxiety, so I disassociate. So I'm still not connected.

Alyssa: [01:03:53] Yo. Yeah. I'm not connected I disassociate.

Rachel: [01:03:55] But like Norah has so many of my early manifestations of OCD that I'm like, I'm not gonna feed into this with my own stuff as much as possible. But as I'm still building skills for like actually dealing with that in a connected way, what I'm doing currently is disassociating.

Alyssa: [01:04:14] Same. That's super working on a lot of skills to not disassociate, to be honest right now, but I do.

Rachel: [01:04:20] I mean, that's fair.

Alyssa: [01:04:22] Yeah. Just I'm like, I'm gonna I'm not going to be available to you for a little bit because I'm flooded and whelmed, and it does pain me when I see. Then I guess as I'm saying it out loud, I'm like, it doesn't. I don't think that this is a terrible thing for him to experience. I because I will shut down and then Seiji will try to reconnect like Zack does Tubby every night. And last night, right before his tub, we had a conflict, he and I. It wasn't a big thing, but it was a little thing. And then he was going up the stairs with Zack, and I was like, I love you, buddy. I'll see you tomorrow. And they got upstairs and he asked Zack if I could come up and do Tubby.

Alyssa: [01:05:08] And it's his way of reconnecting or repairing.

Alyssa: [01:05:14] When I wasn't going to. And the reality is, I wasn't. I wasn't going to, like, get to a calm spot and then pop up and be like, hey, bud, That ended really weird. And I love you and whatever. I'm like, oh God, thank God he's going upstairs like I'm spent from the way that he's showing up in the world right now.

Alyssa: [01:05:34] And then it's on him to do the repair and the reconnect. But I actually don't think that's a terrible thing.

Rachel: [01:05:41] I don't either, because it's not like you. You did say to him, like, I love you and I'll see you tomorrow.

Alyssa: [01:05:50] But he knows when I'm saying that. Like, you can feel. He can feel my body language, my whatever my body language is. Thank God he's going off for tub in bed. Yeah, we're done here.

Rachel: [01:05:59] I do that too. And I don't always like. I don't like to leave my kids like, we've just had a fresh conflict and there's been no kind words between us. Like, I don't like to do that, but I don't always debrief with my kids. Like, they might go to bed and I say, like, all right, I love you. And maybe we'll come back to it tomorrow. Maybe we won't, because I'm not debriefing every single.

Alyssa: [01:06:22] Correct. In fact, I think we talked too much about this stuff sometimes.

Rachel: [01:06:25] Like, I can't.

Alyssa: [01:06:26] And I'm like, I was in this space last night where if I would have gone up to him without his request, I didn't want to see more of him last night.

Rachel: [01:06:36] Yeah. You were going to be annoyed underneath. Correct.

Alyssa: [01:06:39] Yeah. I wasn't in a place to repair or reconnect. I was done with that night together. He was, like, bonkers and super dysregulated and flopping all over the place and kicked me while he was flapping. Not on purpose, but on accident. And just like, climbing up into my face and talking to me with his nose almost touching mine, and I was like, I'm gonna throw up. Like, I am so done. At one point at dinner, I was like, I need you to just move from my body. And then he came back over and Zach was like, hey, buddy, I heard mom say in a pretty kind way, that she's feeling overwhelmed with how close you are and how loud you are right now. She's probably going to lose her patience and being kind if you're not listening to her.

Alyssa: [01:07:27] And that was only at dinner. And there was still time in the day that came. And so to be honest I wasn't going to be able to go up I was done.

Rachel: [01:07:35] Yeah. Which I think is okay.

Alyssa: [01:07:37] Oh I think totally okay. And then this morning I was like, whoa bud. I don't know what was going on yesterday, but you were bonkers. And we had a hard time with each other. And I didn't apologize. I was just like, I'm gonna name this. Like, you were kind of nuts. And we were pretty disconnected.

Rachel: [01:07:57] When I'm annoyed with my kids and I try to set boundaries and they're not respecting them, and I continue to feel annoyed, I don't feel like that warrants an apology from me. Like, I'm not mean to you. I'm not going to be unkind, but like, I don't want you on my body. I don't want your voice in my face. If I communicate that with respect, I don't feel sorry about that. Like you're being annoying. So I feel annoyed. Like.

Alyssa: [01:08:19] And I'm probably not gonna stop feeling annoyed with you until you just go to sleep, because I think he was just tired. And so at the end of the day, like, you're going to keep being an annoying human until you just go to sleep.

Rachel: [01:08:29] Totally.

Alyssa: [01:08:30] See you tomorrow.

Rachel: [01:08:31] Good night.

Alyssa: [01:08:32] We're done here. Legit. Oh, I love you. Thanks for doing this jazz with me.

Alyssa: [01:08:42] Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at Voices of Your Village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at CDC. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag CDC and to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.