Decrease Stress and Increase Gratitude With This One Accessible Thing, with Kelly Corrigan and Claire Lichty

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today we get to chat about decreasing stress and increasing gratitude with this one accessible thing. I got to hang out with mother/daughter duo, Kelly Corrigan and her daughter Claire. Kelly is a New York Times bestselling author of four books about family life, the host of her own PBS show and a top 1% podcast called Kelly Corrigan Wonders. Like Claire, she can't stop making— books, paintings, TV shows, podcasts, meals, mistakes. And Claire just graduated from the University at Virginia where she is probably the school's only double major in computer science and drama.  Making is her life: Computer programs, standup routines, screenplays, code songs, algorithms, pizzas. During her last semester, she was interning at a machine learning company as well as a Hollywood production studio, and this mother-daughter duo teamed up to write Marianne The Maker. This is a children's book all about the power of making and really makes a case for how we can tap into creativity to decrease stress and increase gratitude.

[00:01:15] I loved this conversation because I don't fancy myself a creative human in the way that I feel like I've been exposed to this word. For me, it's always meant like the arts, and I'm not very artistic. I love how they expand beyond the arts and how making can show up in so many different ways. Super stoked for y'all to dive into this one and add this book to your shelf.  Marianne The Maker for all your kids to dive into as well. All right folks, let's dive in.

[00:01:51] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:02:08] Let's dive in together.

[00:02:13] If you want to first kickstart, ask Claire and just share a bit about, I'm, I'm curious, like what's this like, kind of like navigating this with your mom and how's that journey been? How did it start and how how's the journey been for you? 

[00:02:27] Claire: Well, my mom's really awesome because she's always been super welcoming to me and my sister about like her work life.

[00:02:34] She'll be like writing something or working on something or like working on a speech. And even when we were pretty young, be like, does this sound good? Does this make sense? And so I. It didn't feel like that drastic of a step for her to, basically we got started because she had written this kid's book called Hello World, and then she was slated, try the second one, and the original book she had turned in was called Yet and Someday and the publishers, she got not so warm feedback and reception on it.

[00:03:07] Um, and I was sitting at the table when she received that email and so I was like, what's wrong? She's like, 12 publishers didn't like it. And I was like, well, I babysit like 10, 15 hours a week. Like, let me look at it and like I can, I read a lot of kids books maybe out, I have some insight. And I was like, yeah, I don't really like it.

[00:03:26] Um, and so I was, but she You 

[00:03:29] Kelly: had really good reasons for not liking it. Yeah. Which instantly took the sting out of it, I must say. 

[00:03:34] Claire: Yeah. My thing was I like having a main character and I like having a problem that gets resolved. And like with kids books, a lot of them can be very like word salad, where it's like, I love that word salad.

[00:03:45] And I was like, no, I want like a plot. Um, and I want 

[00:03:48] Kelly: it to write. And in my little attempt, the same thing happened on every single page. Yeah. Like on the one side it was like, you can't ride the Ferris wheel. And then on the other side it was like, yet, or like, I can't have a sleepover. Someday I'll have a sleepover.

[00:04:05] And it was just sort of pedantic. There wasn't anybody to fall in love with. It had no rhythm. Like Claire was like, it doesn't even rhyme. Like I'm telling you, I read, I have to read to this kid like for an hour and a half, three times a week. And I go through a lot of children's books and I'll, I know the ones that I wanna read.

[00:04:24] And they have like a certain verbal energy that this is lacking. And I was like, God,

[00:04:34] Alyssa: well, like Kelly, can we have a minute for how rad it is that you have raised humans who feel comfortable sharing that sort of advice or feedback with you because they are not afraid of offending you. They're not afraid they're gonna be in trouble. They're not afraid it's gonna hurt their relationship with you.

[00:04:53] They know that you can handle hard things, that you've got tools for your big emotions. Like first of all, just a million. Kudos to you for modeling that and fostering that relationship. It's 

[00:05:04] Kelly: a really positive take. Alyssa, you really a lot of credit for handing in a crappy manuscript, but what I will say is that I have always been super interested in what they think.

[00:05:15] Alyssa: Yeah, I love that. And how 

[00:05:16] Kelly: they think I, I feel like it's the most interesting thing about them and I love to see it laid bare. So they're, they're very amenable to what some people may perceive to be constant interviewing, where I'll say, tell me more. Why, why do you think that? But when did you think of, well, which page and what would it look like?

[00:05:39] And you know, like it, they, it's rare that they would say something to me that I wouldn't come back with some kind of inquiry, further inquiry. And what I thought I was doing was, um, modeling, uh, being interested in others, which I feel like is a super skill that will make your life better or worse depending on how good you are at that.

[00:06:00] But it turns out the way they were receiving that was, oh, wow, my mom's really interested in what I have to say, which means that maybe what I have to say is there's some worth to it. You know, maybe my take on any given number of things is, you know, something to pay attention to. And it is, I mean, Claire's really bright.

[00:06:19] She's a really great creative thinker and. I have never not been improved by her take on something. I really haven't. I mean, I, I would, I would hire her, I would invest in her like I am a, I am team Claire man, because she's got the goods, not because she's my daughter. The only reason I know she has the goods is because she's my daughter and she lets me look at some of the stuff that she's developed.

[00:06:44] But like the kinds of stuff that she has produced year after year, like going way back is just very interesting to me. 

[00:06:53] Alyssa: I love that. Actually, the other day I was in a conflict with my husband, who is a very creative human, and I said, well, every time you present something, no matter what I say, it feels like you're just defensive first.

[00:07:07] And he like, sat with that and he was like, yeah, I think. I, I'm not married to my idea. I want you to understand how I got to this idea before anything is picked apart. And I was like, okay, that makes sense to me. And it's been interesting. Now I see I have a 4-year-old and a 1-year-old, and I see so much of my 4-year-old and my husband and or my husband and my 4-year-old.

[00:07:31] And I mean, guess both. And I, I started to like see this in my little guy where I was like, oh, he just wants me to understand how he got to this plan. And he'll say, mom, wait, wait, wait. Listen to my plan first. And I'm like, okay. It's very, I agree, Kelly. I love like understanding somebody's thought process.

[00:07:53] And I think sometimes the challenge is me just slowing down to get curious and not be like in a million steps ahead, right. Of like, okay. Yep. Let's keep going. Um, I appreciate that reflection from you as a mom. It's also 

[00:08:07] Claire: really nice to have like a creative partner that's not fireable, like our relationship will persist regardless of like our creative disputes.

[00:08:18] Yeah. And so it really opens up a level of honesty that I think is kind of rare. Like we, neither of us, I mean, my mom morphs to me because she is like terrified that I will stop making if like feedback is too harsh and I do not have the same worry because she will never stop making. Yeah. Um, but like, you know, when I'm in class and we're doing feedback, we're like, first of all, this is my favorite draft ever.

[00:08:42] And like, I don't have to do that with my mom and be like, I like the other draft that, you know, like, yes. So there's not, you don't have to have that like compliment sandwich of giving criticism, 

[00:08:53] Kelly: which is so dangerous because it's, if people aren't being direct, which nobody is in the whole wide world, honestly, except for like in this creative relationship.

[00:09:02] Because nobody can afford to be, because our egos are so fragile, mine included that it's so dangerous because you could easily take like the wrong thing away from the feedback and getting feedback, soliciting it, finding the right people to give it to you, rejecting it when it's unhelpful, like that is a super skill for creativity and making like nobody, and life in general, because creativity and making and life in general have so much overlap in terms of what makes them work and, and what makes them excellent and what makes them problematic.

[00:09:38] But learning how to take feedback, read it, kind of parse it. 

[00:09:45] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:45] Kelly: From the, I'm saying something to make you feel good versus like, I've really got a, a gem of an idea for you is so hard. So for me to say to Claire or Georgia, who also gives me great feedback. What do you think of this? Like they're definitely gonna tell me yes.

[00:10:00] And they're probably the only people who are gonna tell me 

[00:10:03] Claire: person. And it's, that feedback isn't like a session, it's a continued conversation. And so it's really helpful to say like, I know I'm using the passive voice. I know I should say she walked, not she was walking. I know that not the level we're at right now.

[00:10:19] Like there we're able to mm-hmm. Continue having conversation and not worry about like, bugging the other person or like using up too much of their time. Like there's just so much that's allowed when the relationship is so much bigger than like, just two people, two professionals interacting totally soon or one soon to be professional and one professional interacting.

[00:10:41] Kelly: It's, well, you're a professional now, Claire. You got your name on a book. Um, you know what's interesting about that is it's also been at times, uh, a refuge for us. So, you know, Claire was a teenage girl for a while there. I was a meddling mother for a while there and sometimes still am. And this kind of conversation where we're, um, instead of looking at each other, we're sort of shoulder to shoulder, looking at a project is a very safe place for us to interact.

[00:11:16] So when there's tension between a mother and a teenage daughter, which is like a guaranteed fact of life, this is a place where we can reconnect and it's really awesome. 

[00:11:27] Alyssa: Yeah, that's, it's so rad. And there's just so much, it sounds like trust there. When I first came into this conversation and I was thinking about making, I automatically had like thoughts, feelings, biases around making and what it means to make that.

[00:11:43] I would say I'm not a super creative artistic human, right? Like my husband, you give him materials and he's off to the races and he is living his best life, and you give me materials and I'm like planning my to-do list. Right? And so when we look at the idea of making, as you were just talking back and forth about it, I realize this is what we do here at SEED all the time, right?

[00:12:07] We just had a meeting yesterday where we're trying to problem solve a systemic issue and thinking like, what can we bring to this? And the creative process around that and the iterations of like. Just throwing spaghetti at the wall and being able to kind of fine tune that and, and finding like, ah, this falls into making.

[00:12:28] Can you chat more about like, what is making, what does that mean to you in this process? 

[00:12:33] Kelly: Well, I mean, interestingly, Claire is a drama major, but her second major is computer science. And I, who, I'm a much more traditional creative person. Like, I like to sew. I just recovered five chairs this morning when I woke up at 5:00 AM 

[00:12:52] Alyssa: Wow.

[00:12:52] Yeah. That's my nightmare. 

[00:12:53] Kelly: And they look so good. Yeah, I digress. Um, and I like to paint. I like to write, I like to make up podcasts and TV shows and live events, but Claire really opened me up to the, the sort of maybe falsely categorized left brain kind of making, so like robotics? 

[00:13:17] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:13:18] Kelly: And all coding. So it has been fun to go out there.

[00:13:24] We took Maryanne, the Maker, the kids book out on tour with us in March, and we did a pre-order tour and we were doing this project for Save the Children, where we were trying to sell a thousand copies before June 3rd, and then Random House will give a thousand copies Awesome. To save the children for the kids in those programs.

[00:13:44] And at the end of every event, we would get these kids coming towards us with like the, the maker face. You know, it was just like, I cannot wait to tell you about the go-kart that my friends and I made. I cannot wait to tell you about taking apart my old laptop and trying to put it back together again.

[00:14:05] And everywhere we went, our idea of what is making was totally expanded, you know, like, and people would bring little gifts, so somebody would be like, we, we brought you honey because we make honey. And it was like, oh, right. Like I, we had sort of almost forgotten about the whole world that is botanical and gardening and, and like food forests and stuff like that.

[00:14:29] Which is some of the, in terms of the physiological psychological benefits, like you can't get better than gardening. Claire, what else? What else did we hear about out there? 

[00:14:39] Claire: Well, I was gonna say, I think that also when we think of making a lot of the times, like our minds go to these like maybe more traditionally feminine things and like we had a family friend reach out to talk to us about how he makes flies for fly fishing and like, that's like a very like maker thing.

[00:14:59] And even thinking about, I was talking to someone recently about my dad and I, if something breaks in our house. Before calling someone, he is gonna like go get the parts, get a YouTube video and try to fix it. And like that is also like that same level of like working with your hands, creativity, figuring out how to solve a problem.

[00:15:20] And so like I would even classify that as like making, like fixing the sink. Yeah. Oh, I love that. 

[00:15:27] Kelly: Totally. Totally. Yeah. Like repair as making, because it triggers the same like serotonin and dopamine drip. 

[00:15:37] Alyssa: Sure. 

[00:15:37] Kelly: Which is really the message of Maryanne, the maker. And it's the message for your listeners is like, if you want to tap into the natural pharmacy that all of us have within us, no matter whether you're a hundred or three, make something with your hands.

[00:15:53] Yeah. Period. And the kind of monotasking that is demanded I. By most making is so rare. It's so sadly rare. In a world where we're always doing thanks to laptops and cell phones, always doing many things at once, that's not satisfying, that's not gratifying. It's not like engaged leisure. Like we read a couple books about this kind of stuff, and one of them was talking about the difference between sedentary leisure and engaged leisure.

[00:16:19] Mm. And engaged leisure has all the same benefits as meditation. So knitting is engaged leisure or quilting, but I, I even find like puzzling and sometimes I even find cleaning, like at an engaged leisure where I'm putting things back together and maybe putting a little beholding into my day. So the coolest piece of data that we came across, which is totally supported by research over 10 years across the globe, is that that same set of physiological benefit.

[00:16:55] The same spike in serotonin and dopamine and the same reduction in cortisol is available to you when you're beholding. And beholding is a very active, cool state to be in. Claire and I were driving up the coast in California to one of these events in March. This song came on that we both love by cake.

[00:17:18] Do you know that band cake? 

[00:17:19] Alyssa: I don't, but I'm also not very hip. 

[00:17:22] Kelly: Okay. You, you need to get it because cake is awesome. 

[00:17:26] Claire: Yeah, cake is awesome. And you know, from the nineties. Okay, so 2000, the early knot. So I've never been hip, so, so hip, current. Great. Okay. Excellent. Cake, let's 

[00:17:39] Kelly: go. Got it. But we, we were just going crazy on this song.

[00:17:42] Like Claire was like, I just love how long they wait. They make you wait for the bridge. And I was like, I know. And I love the introduction of that vibraphone. Like there's a, there's an instrument that doesn't come into the song until later, and I love the way they change the refrain. You know, like the third time the refrains like a little bit different and kind of catch you off guard.

[00:17:59] And then once you're an insider, you know that the refrains gonna change. And it's like a way of showing that like, this is your band, this is your song. Like, you know, all the sort of variations on the theme and the, the language. I mean, the lyrics are just off the charts. So anyway, all of a sudden after a while of listening to this song and kind of going bananas on all the different tiny micro elements that come together to make this four minute piece of art, Claire was like, we're beholding.

[00:18:29] And I was like, you're right. And I can feel it. I can feel it. And I just was in an art museum with my husband and we got up on this floor, the Theon in Madrid. Uh, it was our 25th wedding anniversary. So we went to Madrid. Um, and we were looking at this art that was from 1300 and we were beholding hard and we were so into it.

[00:18:53] And it was so cool because the other thing that making and creativity can offer if you do it with a friend is this incredible point of connection. Yeah. And we were having it and we, you know, you're on your anniversary trip, you've been married for 25 years. Like what are you gonna talk about? Like you really run outta stuff to say.

[00:19:12] And so we were taking in the world to like, you know, reload the set of topics that we could maybe pick over together. And we gave ourselves this new fodder to work with and we were just. Leaning as close as you could possibly lean into a piece of art without getting in trouble by the security and looking at these minuscule lines, you know, like the, the touch of light on a fingertip and pointing it out to each other and thinking like, is that a paintbrush that has like one bristle on it?

[00:19:44] Like it's so small. I dunno how they transferred the paint. And then it was like, what is paint like in 1300 where, what is paint? And it's like, oh my god. We looked it up and it was like, paint was like ground up Earth and turmeric and other things that you could find like botanicals and then you add lin seed oil to it.

[00:20:04] So anyway, we were just beholding like crazy. And as you can hear in my voice, even recalling beholding has certain psychological benefits which I'm experiencing at this moment. 

[00:20:16] Alyssa: Yeah. Well, and I am in awe of your brain. You, first of all, you experience awe, you're open to the experience of awe, which Brene's got some great research on for us.

[00:20:28] But it's actually, uh, not a super accessible emotion for a lot of folks. And I, I wonder how your nervous system and your commitment to making, and it's so clear to me, you're what we call a small funnel. Whole person means you're a details person. You notice the details of things where when, this is how my husband's brain works, and it is, um, not how my brain works, where I'm the person who likes, makes piles around the house and I just don't see them.

[00:20:59] Right? And he's like, how can you not see that pile that's on the stairs as you're walking up the stairs to take it up with you? And my brain doesn't clock it. And he, the other day, I clipped my nails and he was like, oh, I saw you cut your nails. And I was like, oh my gosh, thanks if you'll see. And he was like, yeah, the nail clippers were in the wrong spot and they were for the record just a little to the left.

[00:21:19] But his brain is a details brain, right? Like the notices, all those details that I miss. And for us, this, you know, affects then our, the amount of stimulation we can receive before we feel overwhelmed and things like that. But, um, when I'm, I'm always fascinated by our small funnel, whole details, people in that like, your brain can clock those things.

[00:21:45] Like I imagine myself looking at that painting and not once does my head think like, oh yeah, I wonder how they made that teeny tiny speck. Right? But like, your brain notices that teeny tiny speck and is then curious about it. And what I think is lost in the conversation around arts education and the extreme benefits of arts education is exactly where you mentioned before of like, yeah, this also includes things like computer science and robotics, et cetera.

[00:22:18] And I, I just had a meeting this week with actually the founder and like lead investor for First Robotics, and he's 88 years old and he still goes to the like National Robotics Championship every year and super invested. And he said he was like, one of the things that's so cool is that who I thought was gonna come into robotics is so vastly different than who actually is coming into robotics.

[00:22:41] And he was like, it's so many like artistic, creative humans who are drawn to robotics. And it's the making, right? It's the like I can make here and that detail oriented piece. And I'm curious, like when we look outside of that. Detail component, the like, yeah, I'm gonna sit and I'm gonna sew, or I'm curious about the details in this painting or experience or picking apart the song even I'm like, oh my gosh, my brain would miss all of those things.

[00:23:13] In fact, Zach, my husband, will say like, well, what do you like about this? Or What don't you like? And I'm like, I don't know. I just don't like it. And for him, he's like, well, I don't like the exact color of this, or the way this curtain matches with this thing, or whatever. And. I have to like really work hard to see the details that come very easily for him.

[00:23:32] And he's also a musician like that is right up his alley to pick apart a song that I would fully miss. And so my brain is now thinking about like what else is involved in making that. We often leave off the table that when we think of arts education, it's not just one thing and that these benefits, the dopamine, the serotonin, sometimes that oxytocin are gonna come in hot through a number of different avenues of arts education.

[00:23:58] It's not just the photography class or painting. Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:02] Claire: One of the things that we found, it's like easiest way to like trigger the benefits of the like maker mindset is to get outside. And so I think in like the last year I've become friends with a lot more people who are like outdoorsy people. I help run a summer camp for kids whose parents have cancer at UVA.

[00:24:23] So I'm like one of the co-directors and it. Have to mention it. And we just had our friends and family die and like me and this little boy were like sitting making flower crowns. And then he was like, well, this is a crown, so now we need a staff and now we need a throne. And so like we made like a whole little world.

[00:24:41] And then another boy wanted to join, but he didn't want like nature as much, so he became the king of recycling. So then we made him a crown and a like cape and a throne, all outta recycling. And then one was nature, one was recycling. I think that like being outside is huge and I think that it's like a really good environment to like learn a lot.

[00:25:01] There's a lot of material in nature, there's also a lot material in recycling. Um, but I think that one of the creative things that is difficult to put into a classroom. So like for me, like helping make this summer camp is huge and like the campers there will be like, here's what we wanna do. We wanna like put together a gaga ball tournament.

[00:25:26] And I think some of my early exposures to making were like my birthday parties where my mom would be like, oh, you wanna have a tooth themed birthday party? Great. We're gonna play pin the tooth on the mouth. We're we're gonna go to the dentist to get like, um, the iodine, it's not iodine. Whatever the like pink tablets are Yep.

[00:25:49] To like see who, how the toothbrushing competition. Yeah. So like being creative in like ways like that I think is really accessible and I think is like overlooked a lot of the times because the result isn't physical. 

[00:26:06] Kelly: It's interesting to think back on the pandemic. Yeah. A lot of people, family manager types.

[00:26:12] AKA moms, most of the time were being hyper creative because they were trying to think of different foods to cook and they were trying to think about like a game they could play and you know, or we were just in a blackout. We were in Madrid and there was this crazy power outage and you know, you have to do different things when there's no power.

[00:26:33] So all those kinds of contextual limitations can drive creativity. Like I remember talking to this guy who worked at Twitter for a long time and then he switched to something where you could write an unlimited amount of stuff. And I was like, that's interesting to me. You know, Twitter seems so, uh, false to me.

[00:26:53] This 140 character thing, he is like, you'd be amazed at how much creativity that limitation, that constriction drove. And I like. Right, of course. And he is like, and now in this unlimited blogging platform that I've come up with. People are way less creative and you know, we all know that. Great. I think it's Thomas Jefferson who said I would've sent a shorter letter, but I didn't have time.

[00:27:15] Which is to say like, it's hard. Yeah. To Haiku is hard, you know, blathering on and on. No problem. But the other thing I wanted to say about nature is that we, Claire and I, are both super fans of this book. It's called Your Brain on Art, and it's written by Susan Maxman, who is a neuroscientist at Johns Hopkins and, uh, Ivy Ross, who runs a big design group at Google.

[00:27:40] And they really make the unassailable case for building small c creativity into your daily life, no matter how old you are. And so we, we feel like Maryann is the perfect model for the actual decades of research from around the globe. That support making as a source of both individual wellbeing and also societal progress.

[00:28:08] Like the more people who feel like they can exert some force on the world who can make something or fix something, the better, because that is a very transferrable mindset that says, I don't really know what the materials and the constraints will be when I get to the problem when I'm 20, 25, 30, 50. But I am so practiced at taking what is available within the limitations that I am being given and making something useful.

[00:28:43] And that experience is very powerful in terms of developing a citizenry that feels a sense of agency and responsibility. To participate in what is good 

[00:28:57] Alyssa: for all and like competency in cognitive flexibility, right? Like I think of the anxiety that is skyrocketed and how, I mean the immediate effects of making and the now and the present, the dopamine and serotonin components, of course would be helpful.

[00:29:18] But also then when you are in that state, as you were saying, Kelly, of like, I've practiced this and so now I know that I don't know what's gonna come down the road, but I know that I can figure it out. I have figured so many things out and that this is figureoutable. It, it just, at the beginning when Claire was like.

[00:29:39] Yeah, I'm going out for a part-time internship and I don't know what's next, but I know that I'll figure it out. It's that practice in not knowing. And I think this is one of the things that's so helpful in that creative process is that there's failure along the way. There's making mistakes along the way.

[00:29:56] There's coming back to the drawing board along the way. And that practicing cognitive flexibility lets us know that we might have a plan A, and we're gonna end up probably figuring out a plan B and plan C and plan D, and we can do that. We have this skillset to do that. And I, I love that note, Kelly.

[00:30:16] 'cause I think that's the, there's the case for the present, the hormonal effects of the present. Uh, that dopaminergic effect is glorious for us right now and the skillset that it fosters long term and how it can address things like anxiety. And self-confidence really I think is so rad. 

[00:30:40] Claire: And also like the impact on of making on anxiety is kind of twofold.

[00:30:45] Where like one thing my therapist has said to me that the opposite of an anxious mind is in noticing brain, which is like when you're in that state of beholding and you are maybe being like more detail oriented and like really taking stock of what is in the world and what is real. Because like inside out too did a really great job of like showing how anxiety and imagination are like hand in hand.

[00:31:07] But so like that helps like lower your cortisol in the moment. But then also one of the things for me in college that's been really helpful is that like when you're in college, like for the first time you do have, or for me, I felt like for the first time I had like real complete and utter freedom of like what my minute to minute day looks like.

[00:31:25] And you do get anxious and you do get stressed and there's this like. Of self-soothing behaviors that are like at your disposal. So like some of them are great, like going for a run or like talking with a friend, some of which are less great, like having a drink or scrolling on your phone. And I think that one that I overlooked for the first couple years that I've really gotten in touch with in the last like year and a half is making.

[00:31:53] And so like I've been to use a Gen Z term crashing out about graduation, which is to say like, you're getting in these like anxious mind loops and spirals. And so what I've been doing to like pull myself out, it is making cards for all of my friends because it like, just instead of being like, I'm really stressed, I'm overwhelmed, I'm gonna go on my phone, then time will pass and I'll fall asleep.

[00:32:20] There's this idea of like, oh, I'm gonna engage in something that will lower my cortisol and will make like better equipped. Do something else that's productive. And so it really does, like we were talking about engaged leisure, like operate as something that can help reduce anxiety and then also like then you're also on your phone less and like being on social media less, I think like long term lowers anxiety because there's less of an expectation of like knowing what you need, who you need to be because you're not constantly comparing yourself to who other people are.

[00:32:57] Alyssa: A hundred percent. I love this when we, I did research in building emotional intelligence in kids partnership with Brandeis University and what we looked at, we called them coping mechanisms versus coping strategies. Coping mechanisms being the, I am scrolling on my phone, I am turning to a beverage, et cetera, and coping strategies.

[00:33:17] Our goal with a coping strategy isn't that you stop feeling anxious. It's not that you stop feeling sad or disappointed, it's that you're not consumed by that feeling that you can lower that level of cortisol or adrenaline so that you can be with a feeling without being consumed by it. Right. That when you're making the cards for your friends, it's not like, oh, and now I don't feel anxious at all.

[00:33:38] It's now I'm not spiraling with anxiety right now. I can recognize anxiety and be with it and, uh, allow it to be without trying to rush it away with a scroll of the phone because it's so uncomfortable to be with anxiety. 

[00:33:54] Kelly: Yeah. And it's also like putting a few more emotional ingredients in the recipe, like, you know, Claire's like hand painting the outside of these cards.

[00:34:04] That's cool. So now there's concentration in the, so there's anxiety. 

[00:34:10] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:11] Kelly: What's life gonna be like after I leave this place? What am I gonna see my friends again? Who's gonna be my first good friend in la? 

[00:34:17] Claire: You need to stop. You need to stop listing questions. 

[00:34:21] Alyssa: They're already in your No. And you've already been listing said questions.

[00:34:24] Forgive me, forgive me, forgive me. 

[00:34:26] Kelly: But also in the mix is, oh, look at this orange that I just made. Oh, I think this line is really turning out, oh, this paper is so bumpy. That's why I keep getting a wiggle. Ooh, I think that this F is too big and I'm gonna have to make the A smaller, et cetera. And then there's the set of emotions that come after, which is like, ooh, a sense of accomplishment and a sense of anticipation.

[00:34:49] And I can't wait to give this to my friend. And you know, a little feeling of like, oh, I did something good and nice. And so it necessarily reduces the anxiety emotion, but you can't have that many emotions at the same time. And so you just have a little bit more of a blend. I. You know? 

[00:35:08] Alyssa: Yeah. It gives you the serotonin to experience the other emotions, right.

[00:35:12] That you can Yeah. You know, call a friend and now you experience connection and, uh, yeah. These other components get to come into play. Um, but I love that. And, uh, that idea of like, it's, it's not that we're adding something in, it's looking at where do we replace those coping mechanisms with a coping strategy and then making can play such an awesome role there.

[00:35:35] Kelly: You know, I had another thought that I wanted to share, which is about this relationship between making and behold. And I think for me, at least in my life, the more making I do, the better I am at beholding. Because the more I understand how things are made and when you understand how things are made, you have a deeper appreciation for when they're made well.

[00:35:57] So like, I have sewn like an entire outfit that I wore to a wedding, which was a terrible mistake. And it was a terrible, terrible, just. I, I, I would just kill for a photograph of it. But it changes how I feel every time I put on a dress. 'cause I think this was so hard to make people have no idea how hard it was just to make this tiny little part of this dress.

[00:36:22] Like just this finishing off the collar is so difficult. Or like, Claire, during the pandemic was like making really kind of extraordinary cakes and to try to figure out, you know, how to make the icing look like black ice, you know, just so smooth. Like how, what kind of sugar do you use when you want it to be like, you know, a skating rink, smooth.

[00:36:47] And then recently I just made this olive oil cake and it was this texture that I was going for where it's like, um, almond flour. 

[00:36:57] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:59] Kelly: And it, and then I, when I'm out and I see something. On the menu that has almond flour, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna love this because it's actually really hard to get that like bite and a piece of cake that actually tastes great.

[00:37:12] And the only reason I can get off on the cake in the restaurant is because I tried and failed to make the cake at home. 

[00:37:20] Alyssa: Sure. Yeah. And I'm gonna couple that with and your details. Human who like notices the difference in taste, right? That you can pick off. Well, the reason I 

[00:37:28] Kelly: notice is 'cause I tried to make it and then I tried to like, kind of deconstruct it and think like, why didn't that work?

[00:37:33] I don't understand. Like they tastes so good down at the, the restaurant and I can't do it. And so it's, but maybe the reason 

[00:37:39] Claire: you're, maybe the reason you're asking those questions post attempt is because you're a detailed brains person. 

[00:37:46] Alyssa: Yeah, because your nervous system notices. We look at this as on the nine sensory systems, what are you sensitive to?

[00:37:52] What are you seeking? Which is like, really, what are you hyper aware of? And folks who are like really hyper aware of taste or texture or smell or whatever they can pinpoint and pick things out that other humans might not even notice that thing. Uh, in the same way 

[00:38:05] Claire: I was gonna say, mom, I would argue that dad notices a lot of things even when he makes food.

[00:38:13] He loves eating food so much that he wouldn't like be able to articulate that difference. Texture because he's like, this is delicious. You know? 

[00:38:28] Kelly: That's how he talks. Alyssa, I like those delicious. That's 

[00:38:31] Claire: not how he talks at all. But I do feel like he'll eat anything. 

[00:38:36] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. He will. He will. But I do appreciate that the like gratitude practice, right?

[00:38:41] That you experience in having been down that route. That's how my brain works with systems of, like, I work on, um, I serve on some state committees here in Vermont for early childhood education and there's some like things we've been working to build and you put something out and the field is like, this could be better.

[00:39:01] And it's like there's so much went into that system to get it to that point. Right. Is it perfect? No. Could there be more done? Yes, please come to the table and help. We welcome your thoughts and opinions, but the like. When you're in the process of making and creating that system, there's a greater appreciation for than the systems.

[00:39:22] Now I look at other states and I'm like, oh, wow, how did they create that? Like, that's incredible, whatever. And it's, yes, because I've been in the process of making, of the system that I can see the parts of the system. I'm like, that's pretty complex. Um, that yes, 

[00:39:34] Kelly: it's the man in the arena feeling. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:37] It's like, who cares about the people up in the stands who are like hanging back and critiquing everything then of course, of course. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why when two people like, you know, Claire's writing a screenplay, I'm writing a screenplay. It's very helpful because it's so easy to just. Slash and burn somebody else's work.

[00:40:00] It's like this character doesn't work and it's like, oh, I know, but I don't know why. 

[00:40:04] Alyssa: Yeah. And 

[00:40:04] Kelly: it's like exactly where like, show me where it starts to break. 'cause I thought he was pretty consistent, but I agree that he sh he shifts and like, show me the line or show me the space where the line should be.

[00:40:17] And that's the kind of thing that you can only do with someone else who has tried. Yeah. Who has been in the arena. 

[00:40:24] Claire: My um, drama teacher always says that there, I say, this is a funny quote. He says, there are three, uh, human needs for creative people and it's food, sex, and rewriting other people's place.

[00:40:40] Kelly: That's amazing. I love it. That's so funny. Oh, it's, that's why people are in writers groups Really is, it's like, so you can feel slightly superior every now and then. 'cause it's just so easy to see the flaws. 

[00:40:55] Alyssa: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:56] Kelly: But if you go around though, if you go through every day of your life, just noting the ways that things aren't quite what they should be, that is a miserable existence.

[00:41:07] And if you go around noting the things about a system, a person, a piece of art, a piece of cake that are magnificent, that is a great existence, that's what we should be striving for. 

[00:41:22] Claire: That's like where I'm, because I'm graduating so soon, I used to like walk around UVA and be like, this institution, the lawn are always like, mow, but I never see anyone mowing them.

[00:41:34] That's weird. Like. I would just walk around like being like, what? Like who is taking care of this? Why are we spending so much money on this? Like, we should be spending money, like doing really important things, whatever. And for the last two weeks I've been walking around like this gorgeous and beautiful and like thank goodness people are investing in like beautiful spaces and institutions and whatever.

[00:41:55] And it's like just always act like you're about to graduate. 

[00:42:00] Alyssa: Like hot tip, like this is that 

[00:42:03] Kelly: Well that, I mean that's like a real, um, that's Menti Maori, which is remember we will die. I mean that's exactly the same concept. It's like it's not permanent. Yeah. 

[00:42:14] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:42:14] Kelly: Nothing is permanent. And so maybe you should be a little more excited about being here.

[00:42:20] This 

[00:42:20] Alyssa: is just on 

[00:42:21] Kelly: an ordinary day. 

[00:42:22] Alyssa: This is why I look at like old pictures of sage that aren't that old, right? He's four years old, but I'll like look at my Google photos of him when he was like one, which is where Mila is now, and. I'm like, oh, I would give anything to just like experience that little human again or like hold that sleeping baby on my body again, not to go back and change anything.

[00:42:43] Just to have that experience again. And it is so helpful for me when Mila's waking me up overnight and whatever. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna wish for moments like this. And I didn't get that Google photo. I say as a childhood 

[00:42:58] Kelly: development thing, I mean you can answer better. I am the youngest of three kids.

[00:43:02] Claire is the youngest of two. Part of why I think that younger kids have it better is for the reason you just said, which is there's just this tiny layer of awareness on the parent's part that this will pass. Yeah. And knowing that something will pass makes you cherish it more. A 

[00:43:19] Alyssa: hundred percent. 

[00:43:20] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:43:22] It makes 

[00:43:22] Alyssa: the 

[00:43:22] Kelly: hard, less hard. Yeah. And that it makes the, you know, it makes the annoying kind of funny. 

[00:43:29] Alyssa: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:43:30] Kelly: From like. This drove me crazy the first time I actually thought this mattered the first time. 

[00:43:36] Alyssa: Well that's, I'm like, 

[00:43:37] Kelly: oh, this is what they do. It's fine. Yes. And then she'll stop doing this and she'll do another thing.

[00:43:41] Claire: Well, mom, you'll tell this story better than I will, but this is like what Andy said to you about embrace the idiosyncrasies. 

[00:43:48] Kelly: Mm-hmm. Friend of mine, our great friend, great family, friends, closest family that we have to us is the, this guy Andy Lots and his wife died nine years ago of ovarian cancer. Liz, who we loved so much, and their children are like cousins there.

[00:44:04] Mm-hmm. You know, to us. And after Liz died, Edward and I were irritating. Each, my husband and I were irritating each other in the kitchen. I tell you exactly why, because when I'm cooking pasta, I take the A piece out after like six minutes and I take a piece at six 30 and then I take a piece at seven or whatever.

[00:44:22] And that's how I figure out when it's time to strain it. And he's like, why don't you put a timer on? And I was like, why don't you make the pasta? Like I don't wanna play this game. Like, this is how I do. And Andy just put his hands on the counter and said, you guys embrace the idiosyncrasies. And it was like he'd do anything.

[00:44:43] Alyssa: Yeah. To 

[00:44:43] Kelly: argue with his wife about how to cook pasta. 

[00:44:46] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:44:46] Kelly: And this is who we are. This is what we are. This is what I mean. I've been thinking a lot about marriage since I just had my 25th. And this is what it is, is it's like seeing the whole person and loving them just as they are, you know, oh, this is making tearful, stopping, finally stopping trying to change someone.

[00:45:06] 'cause that goes on for such a long time. Totally. 

[00:45:10] Alyssa: And I think it And in parenting too. Yeah, in parenting too. And it's, parents 

[00:45:13] Kelly: do it all the time. The carpenter versus the gardener. 

[00:45:16] Alyssa: It that's right. It is the fear of, if I don't change this, what will that mean down the road? Like if I don't change this behavior at two, are they gonna be a bully at 16?

[00:45:28] And no one wants to hang out with them, right? Like, we're so 

[00:45:31] Kelly: totally quick, totally run. That's like runaway thinking, right? Yes, exactly. Like she'll never get married. I mean, she want have children. I mean, if she doesn't figure this out, 

[00:45:38] Alyssa: yeah. She, no friends, no one's gonna wanna hang out with her. She's gonna then be anxious and, uh, she's gonna come live at home.

[00:45:44] Right. Like the, this whole, we can just, she's terrible. 

[00:45:48] Kelly: You'll see Claire. It's 

[00:45:49] Alyssa: fun. 

[00:45:49] Claire: Well, I was listening to Smartless and they described it as like being a parent is like you're a director and then at some point you have to realize you're a producer. And then at some point you have to realize you're just aer.

[00:46:00] Yeah, I think you're just, that's amazing. You're just the financial backing. I think I listened. That was, and then you're just an 

[00:46:07] Kelly: audience member. Really the final frontier is that you just lean back and watch the show. 

[00:46:13] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. I love that transition. Yeah. I think that was Amy Puller's episode and I was like, oh yeah.

[00:46:19] Love this. Amy. Uh, sleigh. Awesome. I'm super stoked for this book to get out into the world. Yeah, I wanted to hold it up so everyone can see her. Yeah. Sweet sister. We'll get a copy and share about that Bad boy over here as well, and I love the save the Children goal there. Thank you too. Thanks for collaborating on this and writing this.

[00:46:41] It's been really rad to get to hang with you. Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:46:56] Summer is upon us, and let me tell you. I love it. I am obsessed with being outside in the sun. Hmm. And just like the daylight for so long. And the difference that it makes from, I said we were, Zach and I were just talking about this last night, and like winter time when you're like, oh my gosh, it's only four 

[00:47:23] Rachel: and it's pitch blackout, 

[00:47:25] Alyssa: it's pitch black, and like there's so many hours to bedtime.

[00:47:29] Oh. We're like, you feel. And then in summer we're like, oh my gosh, it's already seven. I we're like, crap, we gotta get, get for bed. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I really like, I enjoy the humans. I'm around more, all of it, Sam. 

[00:47:47] Rachel: Did the slip and slide yesterday for the first time. The summer. Yeah. And like I was literally laying in a hammock with a cup of coffee while the kid Oh, that on Instagram.

[00:47:56] Oh. It was glorious love while the kids were playing and they were like doing the slip and slide and then getting into their like kitty pool and then jumping on the trampoline and I was just like, man, it just feels so good to be able to walk outside without doing all the gear for the kids to be able to just be in bathing suits and eating snacks.

[00:48:20] And I am a much better mom when a hundred percent outside with my kids. A, it gets me away from the inside where I'm like, what can I check off the to-do list? And then I'm like, I'm present. Like I don't have my phone. I'm in my hammock. I've got the coffee, I'm watching them. They're talking to me and wanting me to watch them, and I'm doing that and I'm not feeling pulled to something else.

[00:48:41] I'm just like, damn, if it could always be like this. Winter sucks the life out of me, and I love Maine so much. Mm-hmm. And I'm stuck here because of Cody's profession 

[00:48:52] Alyssa: and because every person that you love know that I love is here. Is there, 

[00:48:55] Rachel: yeah. Even if his profession was different, we wouldn't leave. But winter sucks the life out of me and I'm so grateful that we are now in the time of year where so many parts of life feel easier and more joy filled.

[00:49:11] Alyssa: Yeah. One thing that I have found as like a pull, I have two different parts that pop up when we're outside. The kids are playing and I'm sitting and I'm hanging with Zach and chatting or whatever, sitting, having coffee. There's a part of me that's like, I should be playing with them. Like right now, things are good and chill, and it'll be a great time to get on the ground and connect.

[00:49:37] And I think that part is actually like the teacher part where the most productive work I feel like I did as a teacher was during times where it was playtime. Mm-hmm. And I could teach new skills and work on things with kids. And it's, I, I think, a vastly undervalued part of the classroom and a part of the day, often when things are going well, we're like, okay, I can pause, I can do these other things.

[00:50:08] And as a teacher, it's. Kids are usually in their prefrontal cortex. We can do role play games. I can even have conversations with them about conflict res or things that happened before navigate repair or whatever. Also, it's where you shine, like as a professional. 

[00:50:24] Rachel: Mm-hmm. You're 

[00:50:24] Alyssa: so good at it. Thank you.

[00:50:27] Thank you. And I then, when I'm sitting there with Zach and I'm watching them play, I'm like, I should be teaching them something right now. Mm-hmm. And also, I just wanna sit and have my coffee and hang out with Zach right now, you know, and like this pull of like the both. And, uh, I, I have found that coming up and I don't think I've found the right for me balance on it yet, because I do think that there's value in both of like sitting and hanging out with him.

[00:50:56] For sure. And if I pop up and proactively support things or like. I'm engaged in their play in a little bit. Often their play is more streamlined and they do get to build skills and I get to scaffold some things and not wait until now they're yelling at each other and Totally. You know, sage's melting in Mila's saying high five in his face.

[00:51:20] Uh, 

[00:51:20] Rachel: yeah. I think that is one thing is like I want to relax and just like chill and watch them play. But I know that if things start to go sideways, if I can get in there earlier, it's so much better for everybody. So even when I am just like chilling in the hammock, I am listening to what's going down and of course my kids are a sensory mismatch like yours.

[00:51:43] Mm-hmm. And if I can get in there and give scaffolding before it all falls apart, yeah. It's better for everybody. Mm-hmm. So I do understand that pull because not so much like teaching skills 'cause I'm not a teacher and I'm just like. Whatever. You also do 

[00:52:00] Alyssa: teach skills all the time to them. 

[00:52:01] Rachel: I do, but I don't, I don't feel pulled to like do it when they're playing, but I do feel pulled to make sure that like their nervous systems are chill so that we can continue to enjoy each other's company.

[00:52:13] So if I start to hear, and typically it's my sensory seeker, antagonizing my sensory sensitive child, I will pop in and just be like, oh, that, it doesn't sound like everybody's enjoying this. I wonder what we could do differently here, but also then I'm like, is that just selfish? 'cause I just want the peace maybe.

[00:52:30] Yeah. But maybe it's in everyone's best interest. Totally. 'cause once it really goes south for my sensory sensitive kid, like the hangs over and mm-hmm. Hope you enjoyed yourselves 'cause we're not getting back to that tonight. Um, 

[00:52:46] Alyssa: uh, this is actually something I've observed in classrooms a lot as I've been in elementary classrooms.

[00:52:52] You know, we've been collecting all this data to. Create a program to serve elementary programs or elementary schools as a whole. And one thing that we've noticed on repeat is almost like an ignoring of the early stages of conflict or of dysregulation. And then it gets to a kid's behavior's gotten big and we're like thrown in a chair, or they're yelling, or they're pushing somebody else, or, um, they're swearing or they're slamming something on the desk.

[00:53:26] And what we've observed a lot is that there's a lot of precursors to that. You know, there's the like, oh, this kid comes in and their face is scrunched, and they're like, Ugh. And they're kind of huffing and puffing, and there's an opportunity to say, oh man, hey bud, I noticed your face is all scrunched and you're huffing and puffing over here.

[00:53:50] So curious what's going on? You look really mad. Here to help you. Right? Like there's opportunity there and then the kid will do something else. Like they'll hit their thing on their desk or they'll be like, huh. And like sit in there and kind of like slam it together. Or they'll say something to the kid next to them or they'll kind of like lean their body into the kid next to them.

[00:54:08] And still nothing is said. Nothing is said. And it's these opportunities over and over with a kid saying, I need help. I'm having a hard time. And when we ignore those hard times over and over and over, then we see an escalated behavior. Mm-hmm. And it's something we've noticed on repeat. And I've so much compassion for teachers.

[00:54:30] 'cause there's so much going on. There's so many kids in the class, they're spread so thin. Yes. And, and we know the humans in our class who are gonna need the most attention from us. And what can often come up here is like fairness, equality. And we look at this from an equity lens of if I give this kid.

[00:54:53] What they need to thrive. The rest of the classroom actually gets to thrive too. 

[00:55:00] Rachel: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. 

[00:55:02] Alyssa: And that maybe this kid has different needs than the kid next to them. In the same way that Sage will have different needs and have more specific needs than Mila will in our classroom. I didn't need specific accommodations in school because of how my nervous system works and what my home life was.

[00:55:23] And I started off on say, second base. Right? Right. Where like I already have, I'm a neutral sensory seeker and I got two married parents without a lot of trauma at home and there are kids who are starting off in the dugout. Right? Totally. Like we're just trying to get on the team and I think that when we're looking at this from an equity lens and saying.

[00:55:51] Who needs what from me. And we can notice those earlier signs. We can actually, at that point before their brain is fully offline and before they're quote in trouble because they've done something really big, we can connect with them in a way that's so powerful for regulation and communication. 

[00:56:11] Rachel: Yeah.

[00:56:12] Yeah. That front loading. And I think too, it can be an opportunity, like I think about in our family, uh, it's an opportunity often to help the other child notice what's going on earlier. Like when Nora and Abel are, let's say they're wrestling, and Abel will be laughing, but he's actually not having fun.

[00:56:32] And she's like, but he is laughing. I'm like, he's laughing 'cause he feels out of control, not because this feels good to him. Then like now in future interactions, he'll be laughing and I'll be like, Nora. 'cause he'll be saying Stop. But also laughing. Yes. I'm like, you need to listen to the stop. Even though he's laughing, he is not laughing 'cause he is having fun.

[00:56:52] He wants you to stop and she's starting to like notice that and observe it. And not always that she can control herself and stop. I, I still sometimes have to step in. But I think too, like it can be good for kids to watch a grownup noticing a nervous system signal and like naming it. 

[00:57:11] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:12] Rachel: So that then they can be aware, not that they're responsible for another person's feelings, but so that they can notice what's happening.

[00:57:19] Alyssa: Yeah. And respond with intention. And engage with intention. Mm-hmm. A a hundred percent. It's somebody from the outside saying This is what's going on, and even adult to adult. I got a text from Kylie yesterday that was like a video of the kids playing and she was like, thank you so much for everything I've learned at seed, because now I watch this interaction.

[00:57:41] I'm like, oh, she's doing this because she's trying to get this type of input and she's doing this because she's overstimulated, and how do I then step in and help meet their needs and help build these skillsets for them? Rather than like, oh my gosh, stop driving your sister crazy. Leave your sister alone.

[00:57:59] And being able to really see like, why is this happening and why are they doing it? So that I can help build awareness and meet those needs in other ways. 

[00:58:06] Rachel: Totally. And for the kid who's doing the driving crazy, like, here are some ways to get that connection, need met, here are some options for you, instead of doing something to your sibling that they're not enjoying.

[00:58:16] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. And we do it in classrooms too. And it's really cool. We had this kindergarten classroom we've done a lot of work with, and there's a kiddo who is a high connection seeker, high sensory seeking. He has low per perceptive awareness and so he doesn't really know where his body ends and something else begins.

[00:58:36] He'll go to sit next to somebody and he sits too close. He will hug really tight or he'll push somebody to the point of hurting them. 'cause he doesn't, can't gauge the right amount of force. And, and he's connection seeking. So he just really wants to be around these humans and, and connect with them. And we taught the class as a whole about how all of our bodies work differently and that for some of us, when our body feels overwhelmed, here's how it shows up for some of us.

[00:59:08] When our body wants to connect with somebody or if it feels left out, here's what we might do and all these different ways that our bodies work. And then we said, who here likes to hold somebody's hand when they're sitting over on the rug? And a couple people raised their hand and we said, okay, let's try it during the rest of this circle time let's, you can find a buddy to hold hands with if your hand is raised in the air.

[00:59:36] They found a buddy and they held hands. Of course, he's like, yes. Then at one point he got frustrated. This is probably about two weeks later, he had gotten frustrated and we said, oh man, you know what? I think his body really needs a hug. He's feeling left out. And something that helps him feel included is if he has a hug or somebody's hand.

[01:00:01] Hmm. And we told the kids that. And then fast forward this little girl who was having a hard time like storms out of the classroom and one of the kids turned to the aid in the classroom and said, maybe she just needs to hold somebody's hand. Hmm. We're like, yes. And these are kindergartners. And we're, I love it.

[01:00:19] We're just building it into their day. Right. So that they're seeing each other not as a threat, not as this kid is doing something bad or they're a bad kid, but instead as, oh, what do they need? What does their body need? 

[01:00:33] Rachel: Yeah. And like we are on the same team. We're in community. Yes. 

[01:00:36] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. I love it so much.

[01:00:38] It's so cool to see how much can happen when we just talk to kids about how their bodies work and when we as the adults can start to understand how their bodies work, it's why, it's why we created the regulation questionnaire. Mm-hmm. Right? Is to give the adult and then the kids insight into how does your body work.

[01:00:57] So if the questionnaire is new to folks, you can go to seed quiz.com, and for any age adult down to infant, you can take this questionnaire and understand how does that. Child or your unique nervous system work, what might you be sensitive to? Like what trains you? What might you be seeking that calms you and what might be helpful for you throughout the day versus then in the moment, it's totally free.

[01:01:24] There's a paid version if you want like videos and a whole bunch of resources and tools and guides for different ways. This can show up. The free version is super comprehensive. Uh, so head to see quiz.com to dive into that bad boy. 

[01:01:39] Rachel: Yeah, great. Um, just one more thing about the quiz. It's been so interesting to me how many adults are using it for themselves, which I love.

[01:01:47] I love that too because before I worked for Seed and understood the nervous system, I always thought that I was an extrovert because I can be outgoing in certain situations and now I. Like I know about myself, I'm sensory sensitive. I'm definitely more introverted. I get overwhelmed with input pretty easily.

[01:02:09] And having that insight for parenthood, I'm able to give myself more compassion when, 'cause sometimes I'll be like, Ugh, I shouldn't be getting overwhelmed over like the kids arguing like, come on, their kids are gonna argue. And then I'm like, Nope. This is just my nervous system struggling with the noise and the chaos, and it's okay for me to feel this way and I know how to like get through it so that I can respond the way that I want to.

[01:02:32] But having that insight into your own reactions to your kids has been so key for me. To even have the capacity to be like, okay, now what's going on for you? 

[01:02:42] Alyssa: Or when you're like, yeah, I'm gonna go to Nora's basketball game and I know I have to support myself beforehand, and that afterward I'm gonna have a lower bandwidth.

[01:02:50] Yeah. I'm not 

[01:02:51] Rachel: gonna be wanting to chat in the car on the ride home. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. All right. Who do we get to chat about today? Okay, so I actually am obsessed with this. This was all about creativity. It was decreasing stress and increasing gratitude with Kelly and Claire. Yeah, totally. And one of my favorite mother daughter duo.

[01:03:10] I love it. I love it too. Also, I loved their relationship and the way that they talked to each other and about each other. But, um, one thing that really came up for me during this was that creativity is so much bigger than like art. Um. Like STEM requires a ton of creativity. You love to say that you're not a creative person and you actually are super creative and really good at problem solving things that are difficult to solve, which takes creativity and like flexibility in your thinking.

[01:03:40] And so I just love that. And even when they said like even somebody like YouTubing something to repair something around the house, like that's creativity. And like Cody also will be like, I'm just not a creative person, but like something breaks in the house and he with no training will just like figure it out and like that is.

[01:03:57] Being creative. What we mean 

[01:04:00] Alyssa: is we're not artistic. Correct. Or artistically creative. Right? Yes. And because that's how I feel like creative was labeled in my childhood. 100% vision boards. Oh, you're creative. Exactly, exactly. I'm like, I'm not, I'm so stressed by the vision board. Yeah. But like, give me a spreadsheet to play around with, or some formulas I can create or, or give you 

[01:04:20] Rachel: a kid with a challenging behavior or a dev developmental delay and you're very quick to get creative in how you're interacting with them to get to the root of it.

[01:04:29] This is true. 

[01:04:30] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. I love them because they did open me up to like, okay, no, I am creative. I'm not artistic. Totally. Absolutely. And I, I would say I have like a creative STEM brain for sure. You are a problem solver. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and like creative problem solving. Like, okay, this is figure, you and I are so opposite in this.

[01:04:55] We're like, you see a STEM problem and you're like, well, we can't do this. This is broken and we're never, yeah, there's no solution. 

[01:05:03] Rachel: I guess I can't work for seed anymore because I can't solve this. 

[01:05:07] Alyssa: And I'm like, cool, let's figure out how to sell this. It's gotta be figure outable. 

[01:05:10] Rachel: Although I have grown so much there, I don't get as whelmed or stressed.

[01:05:14] No. I'm just like, somebody on the team is gonna know how to fix this. 

[01:05:17] Alyssa: That's it. But you aren't like, I'm the one who fix. It's not gonna be me. Fix this. Right. In the same way that when we are talking about like the website or graphic design or stuff in the business that involves artistic creation. I can't tell you what I want or even what it's gonna look like.

[01:05:34] I'm like, here's the function I need. You're also like, here's what I don't want. Correct. And here's the function I need it to serve. And like go, yes. And Becky a hundred percent of the time create something artistically that my brain has never even kind of thought of. Mm-hmm. Or like I could have all the time in the world and my brain doesn't go there.

[01:06:01] Yeah. And I see it and I'm like, yeah, I love this. This is fantastic. Or like, oh yeah, love these parts. Wanna tweak this, don't know what I want, but wanna tweak this. And she's like, yeah, I've got a million other ideas. 'cause she's so artistically creative and I love that this conversation has shifted for me what creativity means.

[01:06:26] Rachel: Yeah. And like so that all kids feel welcome in this idea of being creative even if you're not artistic. 

[01:06:35] Alyssa: Well, and because as they're sharing like the benefits of creativity and how it affects our nervous system and our regulation and our access to then joy mm-hmm. Is really powerful. And I think if that's only reserved for artistically or musically creative humans, well leaving a lot of people outta that conversation where like, I would have heard that in the past and been like, cool, I just don't get that.

[01:07:09] Mm-hmm. Like I won't get to experience that. And now after this convo was like, oh no, this is me too. 

[01:07:16] Rachel: Yeah. This is for everybody. 

[01:07:18] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:18] Rachel: Yeah. I think about my kids. Nora is obviously very artistic. I's not as much, but he is so creative in his play. Um, and he is more of a problem solver in terms of like feeling like it is a solvable problem.

[01:07:36] Whereas Nora's more like me and is like, well, if it's not a quick answer Im out. But like Nora has always been labeled as creative and able, never has been. And this conversation is so important because no, he is creative. It's just in a different way. 

[01:07:52] Alyssa: Yes, yes. Uh, which means he also gets to access all his benefits.

[01:07:56] The benefits. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And how cool to have a kid's book to read to the tiny humans about this. 

[01:08:05] Rachel: It's so cool. Um, and I didn't know that like creativity has a lot of the same benefits for wellness that meditation does. And I've had like spells in my life where I have meditated, but it's never been like a consistent practice for me, even though I've wanted it to be.

[01:08:24] Creativity feels more accessible 

[01:08:28] Alyssa: Totally. 

[01:08:28] Rachel: To me. You can like sit down and paint Yeah. Or like sketch something in a way that, yeah. 

[01:08:34] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:08:35] Rachel: Um, and that just feels a lot more doable to me. Although this is classic, Nora was like needing connection and she's being annoying, so I was like, all right, let's, you and I should go draw together.

[01:08:48] Like let's go draw something. And she was just, I think, tired, but she, I was just like sketching whatever was coming to my head. And she was like, tell me what to draw. You're not helping me. I don't know what to draw. And I was like, yeah, I'm just literally like putting my pencil on the paper and like making a shape.

[01:09:06] And then, oh, this is starting to look like a flower. I'm gonna draw a flower. She was not here for that vibe. Um, so it, while creativity does feel more accessible to me, I think too, it can be hard to think about like trying to facilitate an activity for a child versus like just allowing them to experience creativity in this broader sense of like, it doesn't have to be about art.

[01:09:32] It's like, go play outside and make up a game on the trampoline, or, or do your makeup or do your hair or whatever gets so creative, right? And so just widening that definition of what it means to be creative. And also for myself. 'cause like maybe I don't always wanna like haul out the paints and Yes. You know, but also like cooking can be creative.

[01:09:53] Like there are just ways to find that flow in life outside of artistic creation. 

[01:10:02] Alyssa: Yeah. A hundred percent. For me it means allowing crap to just be pulled out and arranged. 'cause Sage's creative in a similar way that I'm creative and that he has like a little engineer brain and he's like, wait, I could hook this thing up to this thing and then I could pull them both with my tractor and like, he made a street sweeper using Mila's little like bike that's inside and he attached to like Melissa and Doug, um, broom and obsessed mop and whatever.

[01:10:33] Right. And like made a street sweeper. It just means that things always get pulled out for him to like create totally something. Mm-hmm. And. It's never, I, I just, the other, I was like, SIE, can you go pick those things up in the yard before we head in? It's gonna rain. And he's like, yep. And then he is like, I just have to get my hook for my crane, whatever.

[01:10:54] And he had to like create a crane to pick them up, which took 7 billion years and involved more materials. But that is how his brain works. And that's a like part of his creative process. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I just have to relinquish the, just go pick them up. It's gonna take 14 seconds if you go pick them up.

[01:11:17] And I just wanna play a game where I'm like, all right, let's see how fast we can do it. I'll time you whatever. And he's like, he's like, no, I'm gonna make a crane with all these parts. 

[01:11:25] Rachel: Yeah, it is. That is hard. And I think, you know something, I actually had this conversation with Nora this morning as I was apologizing for being cranky.

[01:11:33] Um, something that I need to work on more is. Getting curious about like what her, 'cause this is mostly an issue between Nora and I know as much between Abel and I, but like getting curious about her thought process before I like jump into take control. Mm-hmm. But it is hard when you're like, I just want this crap picked up.

[01:11:58] Like, do you have to like make another machine? Can you just do it? You know? Um, what have you noticed? Right? What have you noticed about beans? Like what is her vibe? 

[01:12:13] Alyssa: She is right now, like music is for her and honestly like through connection, like I could see her similarly to like Nora. Being able to say like, okay, of the humans around me, like how do I find out how to feel included or how that person will feel included in this space?

[01:12:38] And getting creative around like how to bring people into a group or how to enter into a group and still show up as like her authentic self, but also get the connection need. Yeah. She wants to hang, she wants to hang and she is creative and like, Hmm, how can I hang with that person? Mm-hmm. And I think it's a cool gift because it requires her to observe the humans around her.

[01:13:06] And I watch her do this already at like 18 months where she'll like look at the people around her and be like, Hmm, how does that person play? Or what do they seem interested in? And then she'll kind of weave her way in in that way. Mm-hmm. Um, and we were at Jazz Fest in Burlington and I. Like outdoor music venue, which obviously was Sage's Nightmare and Beans loved it.

[01:13:27] Mm-hmm. And there's music happening. There's a huge crowd, and there's this little guy who is maybe around two, and he didn't seem to have as much language as she has. So she went up first and she said hi, and like waved to him. And he just kind of looked at her and then he like leaned in, like maybe he was gonna hug her, and she like, let it happen.

[01:13:50] And then slowly gave him a hug, like, okay, are we doing this? And then they pulled back and he had a snack and she like asked for a bite. She was like, snack Mila mle. She calls herself Loaf Italian baby Nack Mele. And he leaned over and like pushed her. Hmm. It was like a slow push and she like leaned back with it and then came back up to it and kind of scrunched her face like, Hmm, that didn't work.

[01:14:17] Mm-hmm. And then his like parents stepped in as he like pushed her. And they were like, oh, don't push, don't push. And Mila leaned over and she goes, high five. Aw. She's like, how? What is gonna, it's like that part for her. Yeah. I see. Like her little wheels turning around like, how do I connect with the humans around me?

[01:14:37] What's gonna like be the best avenue for that? And when she came back over to us back, because I was like watching this all happen with like, but she was far enough away. I couldn't have like stopped to push or anything like that. Right. And she came back over to us and she told us, I was like, oh, did you meet a friend?

[01:14:54] And she said, yeah, no snack. Oh. And I was like, oh, he didn't wanna share his snack. And she was like, yeah. And she goes, sad. Oh. And I was like, oh, you were feeling sad about it? And she said, kid sad. And I was like, oh, you think he was sad? And she was like, yeah, push mee. And I was like, oh, he pushed you? And she was like, yeah.

[01:15:17] I said, Hmm. I wonder if he's still learning how to say hi or say no if he doesn't wanna share his snack, and then she goes, hi, no snack. No nap. She's like, let me teach you real quick how you can do this. Exactly. Yeah. She's like, okay, I can enter. I can work with this. And it, she would like replay that story for us throughout the night where she would say, kid push me like, no knack.

[01:15:43] No knack. It was so cute. But I feel like that, and she musically like she can't hear a beat and not dance. We went to a Lake Monsters game, like a minor league baseball game here in Burlington last night and she was like, oh my gosh, there's music the whole time she's on her chair dancing. I love it. Groen like, couldn't hear a beat without Groen.

[01:16:05] Yeah, she's got definitely some of that from Zach. Yeah. Oh yeah. The tapping, the, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I 

[01:16:14] Rachel: really enjoyed this conversation and. Especially moving into summer. I'm just thinking like, how can I bring more of this into our daily rhythms with my kids home? Um, yeah. I felt inspired by it. 

[01:16:29] Alyssa: Yeah, same.

[01:16:31] It helped me feel better about myself actually. So thank you. Thank you so much. Uh, go snag their book, Maryanne Maker and dive into Kelly and Claire's goodness. They have created such a beautiful resource for us to be reading with our kids and helping our kids access creativity and all of the benefits that come with that.

[01:17:00] Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voices of your village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at seed dot and dot. So SEW take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag seed.

[01:17:21] Do and do so to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.