Not Another Screen Time Lecture—A Real Conversation About Kids + Tech with The Gamer Educator, Ash Brandin

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today's episode is such a treat. I get to sit down with my friend, Ash Brandin, educator, researcher, author of the new book, Power On, to talk all things screen time, video games, and what it really means to raise emotionally regulated kids in a digital world.

[00:00:19] Ash brings so much nuance and compassion to this conversation. We go beyond the usual screen time debates and dig into what screens are doing for our kids, how we can shift power struggles into collaboration, and how regulation-- not restriction is the key. Ash is phenomenal, and I highly recommend following them over on Instagram at the Gamer Educator.

[00:00:45] They're my go-to for all things screens and their new book Power On is a beautiful roundup of all this information. This episode is for anyone who's ever wondered, is this too much or How do I actually teach balance. Spoiler alert-- it's not about shame or rigid rules. It's about relationship. All right, folks, let's dive in.

[00:01:12] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:29] Let's dive into together.

[00:01:34] I am super stoked for your book to get out into the world. Thank you. It's such a great resource and it's, I think also at a time where people just need it. They need this resource in the Yeah. So I'm stoked for your book launch. 

[00:01:48] Ash: Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate 

[00:01:49] Alyssa: that. Yeah, for sure. For sure. 

[00:01:52] Ash: And then, and yours is September?

[00:01:54] Yeah, September 16th. Oh wow. Okay. Not long at all after 

[00:01:59] Alyssa: mine. How are you? Yeah. Good. Yeah, we, it's like, that's a crazy time of year. I do a lot of traveling and speaking during that time anyway, back to school time's huge. Where we're in a lot of school districts at that time, and then a lot of education conferences happen in the fall, so I feel like I have, like, that's already a busy time and mm-hmm.

[00:02:23] I think that's kind of nice to add book launch into it because it's like. It's just gonna get, just gonna be busy. It's already busy. 

[00:02:29] Ash: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:30] Alyssa: Versus like quieter times for us that I, like my brain I think really relies on like, oh, that's one of my brain break times. Adding busyness to that would be hard.

[00:02:44] Ash: I think that is one of the things that's made this summer harder is that I was mm-hmm. Looking forward to sometimes where I was like, we're gonna fully tune out. Like we were Yeah. Not accessible pretty much at all to internet for like a week and then stuff happened where I was like, nevermind, I actually, like, I have, I have to be available or checking stuff and, because otherwise this just won't happen.

[00:03:05] And like, it's not good or bad. It's like this is just the reality. But that was like a shift I had to kind of make and be like, Hey, this is just gonna be different this summer. Totally. Like, you gotta deal with that now. It's so real. Yeah. 

[00:03:20] Alyssa: That's same over here where like summer is. Especially like June, July are times where we kind of just chill.

[00:03:28] Mm-hmm. It's where we're often like talking to school districts about stuff for the fall and stuff like that. But I'm not traveling, I'm not doing a lot of speaking. I'm not doing a lot of interviews. I don't really have to be attached. A lot of us take time off throughout the summer. Uh, and yeah. That has, has been a different summer in that respect for sure.

[00:03:47] Yeah. Mm-hmm. In a way that I don't love. Yeah. Don't love it either, but like, no. 

[00:03:54] Ash: Okay. 

[00:03:54] Alyssa: Yeah. And it, it is a season is what I have told myself. Like it is very true. It's a season. Yes. Um, one thing I love so stinking much about your work is that you come at these conversations in a way that is shame free and I feel like provides so much.

[00:04:17] Clarity and balance, that it's not an all or nothing, it's not a permissive or restrictive. It's really looking at like what works within the context of your family and your child. Yeah. And I love it so much. 

[00:04:34] Ash: Yeah. And well, and I think, 'cause both of you and I come from education in some, mm-hmm. In some way and still work within education in some way, that's still my day job.

[00:04:45] And that's a big part of what you're doing, obviously. And you know, I think about ultimately what I want as an educator, no matter who I'm working with, is I want people to feel empowered. Right? Like that's, I think the purpose of education is to empower someone to be able to do something or access something or engage with something in a different way that they couldn't have before.

[00:05:11] If I'm teaching long division, right, or, um, breaking down a concept to help a family, you know, rethink something. In a way it's still about empowering them to be able to look at something in a way that feels new to them. Um, and I think that, you know, fear and shame I think are very like linked when we're looking at, if we're feeling fearful of something for our kids and including technology, I think that very quickly can go to a place of shame, because if we're afraid of something and we want protect them from it, if they then get exposed to that thing, even if it's potentially benign, then we feel really badly about it, then we feel ashamed, like, oh my gosh, I've failed as a parent.

[00:05:58] So I think that those blend into each other very quickly and neither of those feelings, fear or shame are empowering, right? I'm not, I'm not gonna feel like, oh, I, I can go do something different now if I feel bad about what I've. If I feel badly about myself as a parent or I'm concerned, like fear and reacting out of fear, that's not empowering, and that's just not going to give families actionable things that are within their control that will have an impact.

[00:06:27] Alyssa: It also then like will bleed into the relationship with the child. 

[00:06:32] Ash: Yes. 

[00:06:32] Alyssa: Right? Yes. Like if I'm coming at this from a place of fear, then I'm gonna try to assert dominance and control over my child uhhuh, and then we aren't going to be able to be in relationship, and then we're gonna see pushback from the kid and less collaboration and cooperation.

[00:06:50] Right. It's this kind of trickle down Totally. That really starts with, oh, I'm coming at this from a place of fear. Right. 

[00:06:57] Ash: And that doesn't mean that to not commit it from a place of fear does not mean that there isn't something to be wary of. Right. Totally. But I think about, you know, if we think about any other kind of like potential vice, you know, we're talking about technology.

[00:07:12] If you think about any other thing that could be engaged with in a unhealthy or dangerous way, which is frankly like a lot of the world, right? Yep. Sure. It's more about, it's more about our relationship with the thing than the thing itself, right? Mm-hmm. But if we think about other kinds of vice, uh, like the big ones, I think with raising kids, being like, you know, sexual relationships or alcohol or drugs, you know?

[00:07:38] Mm-hmm. Abstinence only education doesn't tend to work very well. Mm-hmm. And those tend to come from a place of fear, I feel. Yeah. And it's not that the fear is unfounded, and it's not that we are doing this for the wrong reasons. Right. It's about we want to protect our kids, we wanna keep our kids safe.

[00:07:54] Of course, you know, of course the, the fear is coming from a genuine and understandable and good place, right? Of wanting to protect our kids, but. Um, if we're letting the fear kind of drive, as you said, not only is it gonna put us in direct opposition to our kid with whatever this vice is in the middle, right?

[00:08:19] Mm-hmm. Screens or what have you. It also means that we are not going to see through to the skills that our kids might need 

[00:08:30] mm-hmm. 

[00:08:30] Ash: To be able to navigate that thing, you know? Yeah. If I think, if I think about other parts of a kid's life that can be dangerous. 

[00:08:39] Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:39] Ash: Um, there are many that we don't necessarily come at from a place of fear.

[00:08:44] Like I think about like riding a bike or getting into a pool. Like when I thought about giving my kid a bike, the first thought I had was not they could get hit by a car. Right. Like, I know that's a reality, but like fear was not driving that decision. Right. And I wasn't like, well, they could get hit by a car.

[00:09:02] They could fall off, they could hit their head, they could get lost. I'm not letting fear drive the decision of whether or not my kid should ride a bike. Mm-hmm. I'm thinking about this is a skill I want them to have, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to put them on a full-size adult bicycle and be like, okay, here you go.

[00:09:17] Right. I'm still going fun Boston. Right, right. I'm still gonna, we're gonna scaffold them through the skills and we're gonna make sure that they're doing it in a way that's accessible and it, even with something like swimming, which has more of a fear element, I think for many people Yeah. In, in founded ways.

[00:09:34] We also think, oh, I need to teach my kid how to swim in order to keep them safe. We don't think, I will never let my kid in a pool to keep them safe. We see that they need a skill. 

[00:09:44] Alyssa: Love. I love this analogy right here of like, instead of. I'll never let them near water or a pool or an ocean or what have you.

[00:09:54] Instead, we're like, what skills do they need to survive and thrive in those spaces? Exactly. I love this analogy as you slay. Okay, so when we're looking at this, when it comes to screens, what are some of the skills that a kid might need so that we can feel empowered and like how do we set them up for success?

[00:10:16] Ash: Yeah, it's funny, I, I always, I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I ultimately feel like whatever we're talking about, screens, pools, whatever. Mm-hmm. I feel like there's four skills, uh, and they can apply to just about anything in my kid's life. Um, and obviously these are gonna be like simple because it depends how you a, apply them, but to me there's four skills.

[00:10:38] I want my kid to be literate, meaning like familiar. With the thing we're talking about, I want them number two to be capable of critical thinking in relation to that thing. Sure. So I want them to be able to think like, does this make sense? Do I have enough information? Uh mm-hmm. You know, is this the right place or time or what have you to be engaging in this thing?

[00:11:06] Right. Um, what other information do I need? The third is I want them to be able to assess risk. Meaning knowing like, is this an an appropriate amount of risk to take on? Is this the time for that? Do I have the safeguards I need in place? 

[00:11:22] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. And number 

[00:11:23] Ash: four, I want them to know when and how to ask for help.

[00:11:28] And who the appropriate person to go to is for help. And if you think about it, those apply to like academics. 

[00:11:34] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Right? Like I want 

[00:11:35] Ash: my kid to be literally literate. Like I want them to be familiar with academic subjects. I want them to be able to reason and ask critical questions in a learning environment.

[00:11:45] I want them to be able to say like, Hmm, I don't know the answer. Is this the right time to guess? Right. Like risk assessment is obviously different in a classroom setting, but still it's like, okay, this is a midterm, is now the time to make a wild guess, versus this is a homework assignment. Right? Totally.

[00:12:02] And then I want them to be able to ask for help. I want them to be able to go to a teacher or someone and say, here's what I've done so far and I still can't figure this out. Now I need help. And those four skills also apply when it's. Social media or a smartphone or screens, and it's, I want them to be familiar enough to know what they're engaging with.

[00:12:22] I want them to know what they should look out for. And asking questions like, do I know this person? Is this a safe person to be giving information to? Why would this person be saying or asking this of me? Um, assessing risk of like, is is this the right place to have this conversation? Is this somebody I know?

[00:12:42] Should I give this information to them? And then if something is unsafe, I want them to be able to come to me for help and say, Hey, I was playing this game and then this thing happened and doesn't feel right. So those skills apply to so many things in their lives, and I know it's, it feels oversimplified to distill them down that way, but to me, it helps me see the parallels around so many things in our kids' lives and realize that we are able to teach these skills kind of all the time in these different ways.

[00:13:12] And I think it can be helpful to kids if we make it clear. That these things apply in many different ways and might look different Yeah. But are still the same underlying ideas. 

[00:13:23] Alyssa: I love this. And I was, as I was coming into this, I was thinking about like, what are my, like screen time challenges as a parent and then as we look like kind of in what's to come, what are the like fears that kind of come up for me?

[00:13:35] Are the things that are still like, feel murky for me? Mm-hmm. And one that I struggle with is, and, and maybe this is part of also just like living in Vermont where everyone's obsessed with being outdoors and knocking on a screen. And there does feel a little bit like a restrictive culture in some ways, uh, when it comes to screens.

[00:13:59] And so maybe that's like just the culture I'm living in. But one of the things I struggle with is being like the other day my mom said something about. My 4-year-old in like games at home and I was like, yeah, we haven't really played games yet. And then I was like, oh my God, would we be playing more games if he wasn't on a screen during those times?

[00:14:19] Am I not playing enough games because he's watching a show? Like am I failing him? What skills is he not gonna have? Because we've never played hi ho Cheerio or whatever. Like it was just like such a quick spiral into am I failing him? Because we haven't really played games. And it happened so fast and I was like, whoa.

[00:14:38] Uh, I grew up, I have four brothers, very much. I mean, screeds were such a part of our life from like the price is right. Every summer we had like a summer rec program in my town that was free. I lived in walking distance to the school and my house was often a landing space for kids. And so we would go to the morning summer rec program and then everyone would come back to my house and my mom would just make like a bunch of grilled cheese or ramen noodles or whatever.

[00:15:08] And we would watch the prices, right. And then we'd go back to summer rec for the afternoon program. Like screen time was built into my day. Mm-hmm. And I like slay an N 64. I played so much N 64. So fun. And I, when I look back, I'm like, oh, this was a part of my childhood too. Oh yeah. What I didn't have was like my own device where I could go from show to show or short clip to short clip.

[00:15:40] That was something that was different. I didn't have a device just 'cause they didn't exist yet, that I could like play games with people who were in different houses. Sure. Like those were things I didn't have. And so those are just like unknowns for me of like, what's the give and take of these? What do we lose in doing some of this?

[00:15:58] What might be gained in, in having access to these for some kids? And those were like unknowns. But I had this just like very quick spiral into like, my kids not playing enough games because I have given him a screen too many times and I'm failing as a parent. Like so fast ash, so fast I got there. 

[00:16:17] Ash: It's fascinating how quickly we can get to that place.

[00:16:21] And I think it's fascinating how my theory is that we kind, whatever our like worry or pain point or maybe feeling of, um, inadequacy potentially mm-hmm. Is the thing that we'll, that we'll put in there. Right. Totally. Like, because the reality is. Like you could say that about anything, right? Yeah. Like, oh, he's not playing enough games and that's because we're spending too much time reading books.

[00:16:49] Which sounds like absurd, right? If you say that. Totally. But essentially what you're saying is like, oh, I'm concerned that we don't have enough time for games because something else is filling that time. 

[00:17:00] Alyssa: Yes. 

[00:17:01] Ash: But then we're gonna, whatever we're going to worry about is the thing that we feel like is of the least, you know, potential value or maybe of the greatest potential deficit or, or fear or danger.

[00:17:13] But I think the other thing that happens, particularly with screens that is really tricky is that a lot of the time with screen time, especially with younger kids who kind of need something to be occupying them at any given time. Yes. Um, when we're going to that place of like, oh, we're not playing enough games and it's because he's on a screen.

[00:17:34] The part of that that I think is parenthetically implied is we're not playing enough games. Because I am doing something for myself like that I, that is benefiting me more directly, um, because the screen is often helping a parent in some way. So helpful. And that so helpful. I'm not sure if you mean that reframe where the screen itself, the screen 

[00:18:00] Alyssa: itself.

[00:18:01] No, I mean I meant the screen itself, but also Thank you. They're, that is how we use them, right? Well, yes, yes. We actually, I, I use them in two ways. I feel like I largely use them in that way of like, it allows me to do something else as a parent. Mm-hmm. Where I can clean up dishes and make lunches and not be putting out fires with my children every four seconds.

[00:18:25] Yes. Yes. I also use them for regulation. My son is neurodivergent, my daughter's neurotypical, and they're a sensory mismatch. And so for instance, when we start our day, SIE has, um, a Christmas tree, like a fake one in his room that he. Did not want to let go of post Christmas. So it lives on my kid does too, 

[00:18:48] Ash: currently.

[00:18:49] Actually. I love that. 

[00:18:51] Alyssa: And it has like a Christmas tree timer light situation. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of like his Okay. To wake clock is the lights. Oh, sweet. When the timer lights come on, he then can do whatever. He could play with toys in his room. He can read books, he can also watch his iPad. 

[00:19:08] Ash: Mm. 

[00:19:09] Alyssa: And that is available to him once the Christmas tree lights come on.

[00:19:13] Until we're like, all right, time to come downstairs and get breakfast. And for him, when my, once my daughter sees him, she is in his space. In his face. Mm-hmm. Hi, high five morning. Morning sage hug. And he's like, for the love of everything. Holy right. And for him, his dream is that nobody is talking to him or touching him for the first part of his day.

[00:19:39] He a hundred percent of the time will stay in his room and watch a show until we say, all right buddy, time to come downstairs and have some breakfast. Sometimes we'll bring breakfast up there depending on like where we are. If we're like in a large group with a lot of people, et cetera. I'll deliver him breakfast and be like, get food in his system before he enters into a group.

[00:19:59] Yeah. And he watches a show that whole time. And I've like second guessed myself on it so many times and all a hundred percent of the time I've come back to this actually serves his regulation. Yes. 

[00:20:11] Ash: Yes, yes. I was just thinking about this the other day because, so a couple years ago we were, uh, in Japan for the summer and we had spent all day at this absolutely incredible like park compound where you could just spend hours.

[00:20:26] And we've been there all day and we were there as a family and it was wonderful and lovely. And we got like, to catch the train home and it was gonna be like 45 minutes and we were gonna have to transfer and it's gonna be rush hour, which means it's like literally tens of thousands of people in a train station.

[00:20:43] Like you're shoving your way through. So like, kind of intense. Time. Right. And also a time where you're like, okay kid, I kind of need you like on, right? Like this is a time where I kind of need you engaged and I need your brain with me. And we got on our first train and I was like, oh, we have pushed everything way too far.

[00:21:04] Like one of those moments where you realize like, oh, we are like approaching a meltdown. Mm-hmm. And not, and because, because of whatever factor. Yeah. And in our case it was like, well we've been out all day and it's been a really exciting day and it's been hot and our kid is incredibly tired and is like physically exhausted but not like mentally exhausted.

[00:21:28] So probably dysregulated and is absolutely hangry and there's only so much we can control right now. And I immediately like grabbed my phone and pulled out an app that I knew would. Bring everything down. 

[00:21:44] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. And 

[00:21:45] Ash: I was just like, Hey, here you go. And was like, here, put in an AirPod. And sure enough, they spent most of the time like listening to music on Yeah.

[00:21:55] In that app. But like, it was able to calm down and then we made our train transfer and everyone had a successful evening. And all I could think was, you know, in those moments it's hard in public where you're like, I'm getting judged no matter what here. Right? Like, I'm totally my kid's on a screen, I'm getting judged.

[00:22:13] But if we had not used a screen, believe me, would've been getting judged for a whole different set of reasons. Um, but I also thought, you know what, like if I were letting everyone else, or the, or my fear about judgment dictate what decision I made here, I am also doing that at the kind of expenditure of my child, right?

[00:22:36] Because then I am. Putting my child in a position where they're gonna be having a really hard time with an audience. 

[00:22:46] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:46] Ash: And that doesn't feel fair to them. And there are obviously times we can control that, where we can take somebody to another space. But then there are times where we really can't.

[00:22:56] And it's like, you know what, this isn't, I'm not doing this to make everybody else happier. I am doing this to make sure that my kid is having an experience that is not just gonna feel like I've almost like set them up for failure. And I think what you're saying too is similar where it's like, if I know this is what my kid needs in the morning and our morning is not looking that way, it doesn't help me or it doesn't help them in the long run if I'm like, okay, but we've gotta do this so that you're not on a screen.

[00:23:27] And that's why I think reducing the conversation to just like, well, screens are bad, or We have to avoid them as much as we can. It's just. Missing out on what function they're serving and how they're getting used. And I think that makes it much more sustainable when we can really think about that element of things.

[00:23:46] Alyssa: I love that reframe. And one thing I'm curious about from you is as we're looking at, like, there's language around, like not all screens are created equally, right? And like what they're doing on the screen doesn't matter. I wanna look at this and especially, you know, as we were writing big kids, so much of what was coming up is around like social media and gaming.

[00:24:06] And are they, you know, as I was talking about N 64, I could only play that with the humans in my house, right? Mm-hmm. And now you have the ability where you could play, it could be a Tuesday night, school night, and maybe we can't be in person, but now I can play a game with my friend at their house because there's an ability to do that, um, in a way that I didn't have growing up.

[00:24:30] And. So I'm wondering as we're looking as kids are getting older and we're looking at the role that screens are playing, what this looks like in terms of being able to understand for us as parents, what this means about the difference between a kid watching a show on, uh, TV versus playing a game, versus scrolling on social media and what those different effects might be for us.

[00:25:00] Ash: Yeah. I have a chapter in my book that's really about like content and the kind of differences in content. And there are probably some like sweeping generalizations we could make. And at the end of the day, it really is going to be, you know, you as an individual parent knowing your kid and knowing.

[00:25:22] Probably how they are using a given thing or how they're interacting with it, that's gonna make a huge difference. Um, but I think it really helps too, as we were just talking about, to think about what's the purpose or what are they trying to get out of this thing. Um, yeah, that's great because like we were, like we were just saying earlier, it's like, okay, if you, in the morning with your kiddo, like you clearly have figured out what kind of content is going to work well for them.

[00:25:50] Mm-hmm. You're not saying like, do whatever you want on the iPad. Right? Right. You're not framing it as do whatever, so that you're quiet in the morning. Right. Right. Instead, you've thought about like, they're watching a show, he's watching a show, presumably it's a show that you all know, or he knows that works well for him that he enjoys.

[00:26:10] Right. And if the purpose of that is he's getting to wake up quietly, you're getting to wake up quietly. Everyone's kind of getting started in the morning in a way that works for their varying needs. Right. More interaction, less interaction, and thus everyone's like getting out the door in a good mood.

[00:26:31] Right. Well, that is a better use of content, even though that might be passive content than if someone is like, oh, but the content should be interactive, and it's like, okay, but if we give this particular kid an iPad to play a game on in the morning, they might end up super dysregulated and not wanting to give it a back, and now we're having a power struggle and it's not even 7 45.

[00:26:54] Right. Had to like 

[00:26:56] Alyssa: cognitive brain space that I actually don't want him to use before we're trying to go through morning routines to get out the door for school, et cetera. 

[00:27:03] Ash: Right. It's like, well, if the purpose is like you're half asleep and you're waking up Yes. Then yes, then it should be something kind of passive that I can kind of halfway up to, right?

[00:27:13] Yeah. Because well, you're like, oh, well, TV or. That kind of content, you know, is more passive, but it might be slower paced or can be slower paced. So it's like, but it, but they're just sitting there and watching it versus, and that might be a more interactive, but then it's more stimulating. And so it sounds like there's these pros and cons, but it's really, okay, what, what do we need from this right now?

[00:27:37] Like you talked about using a screen to get things done. I very much do that as well. And my kiddo and I just the other day were having a conversation 'cause they had, were struggling to end like, uh. Even though they like had a warning, but they just weren't wrapping up in a way that was working. And I was having to really come in and enforce the boundary around ending.

[00:27:58] And I told them, you know what? I think what's happening here is the last five minutes is when you're trying to wrap up. And it seems like you need more of my attention to help you with that. But the problem is, is that the last five minutes are my most intensive time for whatever I'm trying to do.

[00:28:16] Because if I'm trying to make dinner, those last five minutes are like, we have five minutes all hands on deck. I've gotta make every second count and I can't split my attention very much in that period of time. Mm-hmm. You're gonna get a worse parent. I am gonna feel spread thin and I'm gonna get really snappy.

[00:28:36] And so we had a conversation of like, I need these last five minutes to be more hands off for me. So that. We can all have a better outcome. And that doesn't mean I'm saying, okay, kid, you're on your own. Instead, it was like, okay, what can we do to make those last five minutes easier for you so that if you need help from me, it's like help.

[00:28:59] I'm capable of giving. Mm-hmm. And that is just not possible to have that kind of granular conversation if all I'm thinking is, well, it's the game's fault. 

[00:29:11] Alyssa: Yes. Right. 

[00:29:11] Ash: Because that doesn't do me any good. It's like, okay. I mean, yeah, I guess it technically is the game's fault because they're reacting this way to it, but that doesn't go very far.

[00:29:24] Right. What does my kid learn from that? It's the game's fault. Okay. And that removes their agency from it. Right? It kind of says like, well, there's nothing that could be done. Right. And what I'm trying to say is, no, let's see if there is something that could be done. Because otherwise I have to say we can't play that.

[00:29:42] Otherwise I have to take it away and we have to do something else and that doesn't feel good to anybody and I don't really wanna enforce that. So it's like, okay, if you want this thing in your life, I want it to be in your life and it has to function in a way that's gonna work for everybody. And that includes me and that includes you kiddo.

[00:29:59] So what does that look like? What can we try? Let's get curious. Let's like try some different ideas, and if something's working better, then great. What we've learned is that strategy works for you in this given application. And so when we tried a different strategy and it worked, it was like, oh wow, okay.

[00:30:18] Now we've learned that if you're trying to wrap something up, this is more helpful for you. Well, that applies many areas, right? That applies on screens, that applies when we're wrapping up at a friend's house. That applies on a big project at school, and it's much harder to see that through line if what I'm focused on is it's the game's fault.

[00:30:41] Alyssa: I am so drawn to your respect for children because in order to have that conversation, it first requires you to respect them as a human enough who can have a back and forth and brainstorm this and build their own self-awareness. Like that's what you're doing, right? Like you are supporting them in building awareness of what's happening in this situation, rather than coming in and powering over and just being like, Ugh, this isn't working.

[00:31:11] I'm gonna set this boundary and shut it down, and, uh, we're not gonna be able to play this screen if this is how it's gonna go. Right? Like, instead of going into this power over mode, that is, it's easier for a lot of us in those moments because we're in our like, reactive state often, especially if we're like, I got five minutes to get dinner done.

[00:31:30] I don't wanna use my conscious brain, I wanna use my subconscious. Mm-hmm. And coming in and saying, Hey. Something's not working here. And being able to take that step back first for yourself and get curious, but then to respect the child enough as a human to say, I'm gonna have a real conversation with you about this so that we can figure this out together.

[00:31:56] It, it, it really requires respect for the child. And I love that so much about you. It's something you bring into all of your work that you don't treat them as, like, they wouldn't get this, they couldn't understand this, but instead respect them enough to believe that they could and bring them into the conversation, which then helps them build awareness for those long-term skills that are then transferable to the birthday party, to the project at school, et cetera.

[00:32:25] It's a skill building opportunity mm-hmm. That you seize instead of a power over opportunity. 

[00:32:33] Ash: Absolutely. And you know what, like so many parts of parenting, it's not that every time. A 

[00:32:38] Alyssa: hundred percent. 

[00:32:39] Ash: Yeah. Like we're talking about like when everything's firing in the right way and I'm like, okay, we have the time.

[00:32:46] Um, it's not, that's not happening every time. Absolutely not. And sometimes it's happening after the fact when it's like, wow, that went really poorly. Like who would that, that's mostly in my household after fact. And I'm like, right, woo. Alright. What can we learn from this? For sure. But that's also huge, right?

[00:33:03] Like, I think especially in education, I feel like it's so important for kids to see their teachers be willing to say like, I don't know, or That didn't work, or I wanna do something different. Um, because it, I think there is a respect in that mm-hmm. Of recognizing like, yeah, okay, I'm gonna have some introspection here and go like, yeah, we can, we can do that differently.

[00:33:25] So even if it's after the fact or after the fact, every once in a while, yeah. It's recognizing that we can. Yeah. Like you said, the, the getting curious part and being able to help helped me with that is being able to separate the sort of, um, sense of morality of those things from the action or behavior itself.

[00:33:54] Right. So that if they're having a hard time, it's not because they're a bad kid. If I am struggling, it's not because I'm a bad parent and I can also want it to go differently. Yeah. And think about what we can do differently. And that, it's so interesting that you framed it as like, respect for the child because I absolutely agree with that, but I just had never really thought of it that way.

[00:34:19] Um, but I think about, you know, I want my kid to be a participant in my household. 

[00:34:26] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Um, 

[00:34:27] Ash: and I don't mean that in like they get a vote. Like every time they don't, they get a voice. Yeah. They get a voice, not a vote. They, oh my God. Yes. That's, that's a wonderful takeaway from they get a voice, not a vote.

[00:34:42] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:42] Ash: That is so true. Like I want them to feel like they can share things. I want them to feel like they are, have a voice and that they'll be heard. And that does not mean mm-hmm. That they always get a vote. Or if they do get a vote, it doesn't mean that they're always gonna be the deciding vote, even though there's three people in my household.

[00:34:59] Right. Yes. Uh, they might be the tiebreaker, like on paper, but it won't actually always mean they're the tiebreaker. Right. Um, but I think it's also a lot, it sets the stage to make them active participants in the home also. Yeah. Because if we're talking about like, Hey, we need this all to work with, for us, where we're talking about like.

[00:35:23] Yeah, we are gonna make sure that we have all the laundry put away before we're watching tv. We don't have to do that from a place of incentivizing or rewards or no TV until your laundry's put away. Instead. Instead it can be, we're gonna watch tv 'cause we wanna watch TV and we're gonna put the laundry away because we are all members of the house.

[00:35:44] Like we're all participating. And the, I think there's a respect in say, like showing kids like, Hey, you're a member of this household and that means you get to benefit from it and you're, and you deserve that and you have the right to that and you're a member of this household. And that means you also get to contribute to it.

[00:36:05] And that's with Yeah, your actions and your roles and your participation. But it's also with your voice. Yeah. Right. It gets, it gets to be both. Yes. Even if that's not always driving the decisions that we make. 

[00:36:20] Alyssa: Yeah. And the way that we talk about this in our household is that you get to share your plan.

[00:36:26] And so Sage will say like, I wanna say my plan. And for me, the greatest work is just shutting up during that time and not interjecting and giving him the space to share his plan. And it doesn't mean that his plan is the way that things are going to go, but then he feels heard, he knows that I understand what he's trying to do.

[00:36:49] I can respond to his plan with intention. 'cause now I'm like, oh, this is what you were working on. This is what you envisioned. Um, and this might be like what your body needs. And if that avenue isn't an option, how else can those needs get met for your body? And it gives me more insight when I get, when they get to share their plan.

[00:37:12] I have, I have a sensory mismatch in my household. Right. And so when we look at how this looks with screens, my daughter is a sensory seeker with high connection needs. And my son is sensory sensitive with lower connection needs. And so for him, a lot of what drives how he navigates his day is whether or not he's feeling overstimulated.

[00:37:35] Right. And what drives my daughter so often is her need to move her body and be in connection with people. 

[00:37:44] Ash: Hmm. And 

[00:37:45] Alyssa: so when we're looking at the role that screens play here for my son, when he's overwhelmed and overstimulated, watching a show that he already knows, he'll watch the same one on repeat sometimes or the same movie on repeat.

[00:37:57] Mm-hmm. It's grounding, it's comforting, it's calming. He knows what to expect from it. It is regulating for him. Absolutely. And for her. If she doesn't have access to movement before, during, or after watching a screen, or it's not engaging where she's either doing something or somebody like, she loves Ms.

[00:38:21] Rachel. 'cause Ms. Rachels talking to her. Right, right, right. But she does not love a show with just like a narrative or an arc to it. Right. She loves the engagement part of it, and she's like, say ball, and she's like, ball. She's like, we're doing this together. And Sie never responded to those prompts in the show ever.

[00:38:39] Yeah, no, because it's not what a screen is actually doing for him. He will use it. He also will use it to like learn things, like he'll say, mm-hmm Can we look up a video and we'll look like a YouTube video on hydraulics or whatever. Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:52] Ash: Yeah. 

[00:38:52] Alyssa: He wants use it to learn and. I don't see that firing my daughter up as much

[00:39:03] and for her it's like connection. I could see her even like watching shows or movies to then have a reference point to connect with other people, with somebody. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even if it's not about the show or the movie that she would be as interested in, but having it as a reference point culturally to connect with other humans.

[00:39:18] Ash: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and what you just described too, which goes back to what you were saying earlier, is that you're seeing them as humans. Yeah. Like you're seeing them as small humans, but like fully fledged out humans with needs and to some degree, like already in a sense of what kind of person they are in certain ways.

[00:39:41] And that's not to say that won't change, but having any sort of curiosity about what is my kid getting out of this? I think can go so far. And you talked about talking about and working with kids from a respectful place, but this also requires not necessarily respect for screens, but being able to view them with some amount of neutrality.

[00:40:09] Yes. And that is like the first third of my book is basically to that. And I, as someone who reads a fair amount of nonfiction, I always get frustrated when books are like, all right, I know you wanna know this thing, but we're gonna do like 200 pages of foundational groundwork first. And I'm like, oh no, no, please just give me this answer I want, but.

[00:40:28] When I was writing it, I was like, no, we've gotta do this first because we, I know we can't, we can't talk about a lot of what we're talking about right now is so difficult if we're coming from a place of, but they're bad. But screens are bad. Yeah. They're the worst thing. It's all 

[00:40:43] Alyssa: what they take away or don't give without seeing, like what do they provide?

[00:40:49] Ash: Yeah. And, and knowing that the, what they provide might be from like a productive capitalist standpoint might be nothing. Ah, yeah. Totally. For sure. And that is okay, right? If what they're providing is essentially leisure in some way. Well, 

[00:41:08] Alyssa: I mean, I guess similarly to like, what do you get if you just like walk outside and stand in nature for five minutes?

[00:41:15] Ash: Right. But people will always say that nature's better 'cause you're outdoors. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when we're thinking 

[00:41:20] Alyssa: it's not from like a capitalistic, productive perspective. Yes. Not bringing things to the table. I'm not necessarily learning something. Like I'm not making a sale. I'm not, I am standing and I'm regulating, I'm pouring into my nervous stuff.

[00:41:36] Right. And same with like, oh, am I sitting and chatting with a friend and just hanging out? Cool. I'm connecting with, so I'm meeting a need, I'm supporting my nervous system. Mm-hmm. Yep. And when we can see in screens the ways that they can help meet needs, then I, I wonder if that could shift it for us of, for instance, my connection seeking daughter FaceTime is a great way, of course, for her to meet, meet a connection need.

[00:42:05] Of course. Right? Yeah. And like also her connection need is met from Miss Rachel sometimes. Yes. I feel like we're in this together. Totally. And you know what's so rad? When I'm not the only human trying to meet her connection need, or my son who's like for the love get out of my face, is not the only human trying to meet her connection need.

[00:42:25] And she has another outlet for that need for these kids who are like, it feels like a leaky cup. Or Oh my gosh, they're melting down. They're so overstimulated, they just wanna watch a show. It's like, yeah, the, is that all bad, right? Like we just, the other day my, my daughter burned her hand, a boiling water splash on her hand.

[00:42:43] Oh, she's so fine. It was super minor, but while it was happening, I was not home. I'm serve on a board and I was in an executive session in the board meeting when this happened. No. And so she splashes her hand with the water, gets splashed under hand. Now Sage is dysregulated 'cause she's dysregulated, Uhhuh.

[00:43:03] There's a perfect storm fire, Uhhuh and I come out of executive session to a text from my husband that's like, please call me. Everything's a shit show right now. And, and so I call, I end up just on FaceTime with Sage. I was like, can I just talk to Sage so that you can help Mila? And he's like sobbing. And we popped it on FaceTime and I was able to utilize the screen to co-regulate with my son and be a parent with him when I wasn't able to be there in person with him.

[00:43:34] And then ultimately had him go and watch a show and helped him turn on finding Nemo, which he knows so well. And I knew like the predictability of it would be very calming for him when his other parents helping my daughter who has a burned hand right now. And he, I was like, you know what, go grab a bar because dinner's gonna be a minute.

[00:43:56] Go grab a bar from the kitchen. We're gonna set up Nemo, I'm gonna stay here with you until we're all set. And he was able to. Be self-sufficient so that my husband could support my daughter in this time. And used, we used two screens. We used one FaceTime so that he could co-regulate with me and another for finding the most so that he could be in a regulated state with some predictability so that my husband could support my daughter and continue to get dinner going.

[00:44:26] And it's like, what a gift. 

[00:44:28] Ash: Right. Right. And I think we talked about this some the other time that I was on the show of, you know, sometimes like yes, if always given the option, sometimes they would go to that every time. Totally. Um, so my kiddo and I were on a, like a really long, epic road trip for most of June and it was almost entirely just the two of us.

[00:44:49] And it was wonderful. And. There were many moments where I felt like I was looking around and going, where's the adult? Like where's the adult who's gonna make this decision for like the 80th time today? Yes. And then, and then realizing like with horror that it is still me and being like, oh no, not again.

[00:45:12] You know? And so like on the one hand, yes, if given the choice to do a thing that is immediately satisfying and very dense in its satisfaction and immediacy or something that isn't, most people, not kids, people are gonna choose that if given the choice. And so there's the hard part of. Yeah, if we'd give them the choice of the screen that they would choose every time and something else, we are the ones giving them that choice.

[00:45:48] Yes. And 

[00:45:49] if, if they do choose the screen, they are just holding up their end of the bargain because our job is to decide what is available and when sort of division of responsibility type thing, right? Yeah. We decide what's available and when, and they decide what to do within the options of what's available.

[00:46:06] And so if we're giving that as an option, then we, like they have the right to choose that as an option. If it's not an option also completely. Okay. And then we're not going to give it as an option. 

[00:46:19] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:46:20] Ash: So that's like, and I mean, I understand that that is not easy to do a lot of the time. I get it. It's hard 

[00:46:28] Alyssa: what your.

[00:46:29] Well, I just think it, what it, what I hear there is like, that's the difference between reactive and proactive in that if we are consistently only turning to screens reactively Yes. Where like a kid's having a hard time and they wanna watch a show, and then we're saying yes to a show and it's always then what they learn from a neural pathway perspective is Yes.

[00:46:50] When I have a, when I have a 

[00:46:51] Ash: hard time. Mm-hmm. Yes. 

[00:46:52] Alyssa: Exactly. And that's the connection we make. And, uh, uh, there's, and of course sometimes that's gonna happen. And if screens are just built in at consistent, predictable times mm-hmm. And they know that, oh yeah, when I get up, I'm gonna watch a show. Or during a road trip I get to have my iPad right when I'm on a plane or whatever.

[00:47:16] They know when this is coming and it's predictable. Right. Then it isn't only used as a coping mechanism. Right. Or as a reward. Yeah. 

[00:47:27] Ash: Which is which. Talking about the pathway that we're creating. Yeah. The conditional pathway we're creating same deal. Right. And, and because when it is conditional on something, right?

[00:47:37] Yeah. Be behavior, feelings, reward, et cetera, that's inconsistent. Mm-hmm. And 

[00:47:45] Alyssa: dopaminergic, it's gonna produce so much more dopamine because 

[00:47:48] Ash: we're getting it as the reward. Right. And we are essentially setting ourselves up for the thing we're trying to avoid, because we don't want our kid to want screens over other things.

[00:48:01] We don't want our kid to, uh, put their laundry away in order to get a screen. And yet if we are using it as a reward, or we're using it with, without, without consistency, we are telling them like, when you display certain behaviors, this thing might happen. That sounds a lot like, frankly, like a gambling kind of thing.

[00:48:24] 'cause it's an inconsistent thing. It's like, well, if I do this thing, maybe I'll get this outcome That is essentially a gambling mechanic, which we like to avoid in kinds of games and screens, which is why certain games and screens can be so insidious. Um, but if our kid is having a hard time and like mm.

[00:48:44] Eight outta 10 times, we're like, okay, sure you can use the iPad. And then two outta every time, 10 times. We're like, why do you keep asking for this? Right. We're it's gonna make everything harder. And of course our kid is like, well, because sometimes I get the iPad, of course I'm gonna ask for it. Yeah. And if we're, it's always worth asking, right.

[00:49:02] And if, because that's the message we're sending is like, maybe this thing will happen. Yes. And sometimes. We do have to do that. Sometimes it is gonna happen that way. I ta I use this analogy in my book when we're, I'm talking about like rewards and why we might not want to use screens as a reward. I'm like, you know what?

[00:49:21] You have to know what a, is this something where if it actually did become an association, I would, I be okay with that. And I use the example of like a kid getting a, a vaccination at the doctor's office. You know, that is not the moment where I'm going to, like, validation of their feelings is, Nope, not gonna get me out of that.

[00:49:43] Right. No. I'm like, oh, I know it hurts and I know you're scared. And it's like, you know what, sometimes it's gonna work and if it's not gonna work, it's like really not gonna work. Like I've had my, my kiddo has been in both sides of that and. If in that moment I take out my phone and I put on a video or I let them do something for a few minutes and they're getting their vaccination and they're not having like a really negative association with this experience.

[00:50:09] Alyssa: Yes. 

[00:50:10] Ash: You know what, if that's the cost of them getting a shot, I'm okay with 

[00:50:15] Alyssa: percent. 

[00:50:15] Ash: Right. Yeah. This is not happening often. It's a relatively high stake situation. Uh, also like how many adults have to do something in those situations to help themselves? They have to look away. They have to talk, they have to distract themselves, right?

[00:50:29] Yeah. If that's what they need in that situation. Okay. But on the other hand, if my child is worried about swim lessons and they're feeling fearful of the water, I'm giving them a screen to calm them down, but then being like, okay, but now you have to get in the water for swim lessons. Yeah. That's probably not going to give them what they need.

[00:50:52] To be able to participate in a swim lesson without fear, like that's not gonna give them a sense of purpose or reason for this. And then next week when they're asking to use my phone before swim lessons, I might be like, what do you mean? Right? Yeah. So thinking about, you know, what's the stakes of this and.

[00:51:08] Sometimes you, it might be, yeah. Actually, if every time we, you know, go for a hike as a family afterward, you wanna get ice cream because we did that that one time, I'm, that's fine. That's fine. I can, I'm happy to get ice cream after a hike. Totally. Right. And sometimes it's not an association that we want to be their, their go-to long term.

[00:51:29] Yeah. Like every time I pick you up 

[00:51:30] Alyssa: from 

[00:51:30] Ash: school. 

[00:51:30] Alyssa: Right. Exactly. Exactly right. Oh, Ash, this is so stinking good. I'm so stoked for folks to get your book for it to be out into the world. I, it, it's such a topic for so many of us who are raising kids in a world that we didn't grow up in with, in, in terms of the tools that are available and, and also.

[00:51:51] A lot of these tools were available in different ways as I was sharing Like Price Is Right. Was around very much watching it. Rosie O'Donnell after I came home from school Oh yes. With my mom. Right. General Hospital was on when I got home. Like we were very much exposed to this still in my childhood. Um, and there are parts of it that look different.

[00:52:12] Ash: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:12] Alyssa: And I think having you and your brilliance in the way that you present this is so stinking helpful. I know. It's so helpful for me. Thank you. Thanks for having a day job and doing this on the side for us. 

[00:52:27] Ash: Well thank you so much and I am so glad I got to be here and I hope it's helpful to people.

[00:52:32] So thank you very much for having me on. Where can folks find you, follow you, learn more about your work? So, um, I live mostly on Instagram at the Gamer Educator. I also have a Substack, which is just cross posts of my Instagram. In case you are trying to avoid beyond social media as much, you can just get everything to your email inbox.

[00:52:52] And that is also at the Gamer Educator. And, um, my book, power on Managing Screen, time to Benefit the Whole Family came out on August 26th. And you can get it wherever you get books or from your library if that's where you get books too. And it's in all formats. And if you get the audio book version, it's me reading it in case that's something that you would enjoy.

[00:53:16] Alyssa: Love it. Thank you. Thank you. Stay tuned. After this note from our sponsors, Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:53:30] There was something juicy. I was gonna tell you what it was juicy. Ugh. No, I thought of it actually during the last breakdown and I was like, Ooh, save that for the next breakdown. Dang it. 

[00:53:40] Rachel: Oh, I can tell you it's not very juicy, but Oh, oh no. Tell me. Don't lose it. Tell me right now. 

[00:53:47] Alyssa: Okay. So this might not come as a shock to you, but it was a new revelation about myself.

[00:53:53] Hmm. You know, that I like, am a huge connection seeking human. Mm-hmm. Nila and I are so similar. Mm-hmm. And I realized, so feeling left out I know has always been like a hard feeling for me. I want to feel, I wanna at least be invited even if I say no. Right. Like, I wanna feel included with that. Rejection is really hard.

[00:54:21] For me. Mm-hmm. What I just put together is that, so I've been reading like s Muddy Beach reads basically this summer. Mm-hmm. And you know, it's not real, right? Like, that's not how people show up in relationship for just like no 13 years in with Zach. And like, it's not like, oh my God, I, it just can't get enough of you.

[00:54:52] It's just not real. No, it's also not reality 

[00:54:54] Rachel: in any way. 'cause it's like they rode for two weeks in their leathers in a hundred degree weather. And then when they finally got to their destination, they couldn't, they couldn't help themselves. It's like, Ew, you're disgusting. You need a shower. Help yourself, help yourself.

[00:55:11] Alyssa: Okay. But, so I've been reading this like S spot. Okay. So then. I have this overnight away from Zach. 'cause I took Sadie to his appointment. Mm-hmm. And I was, I finished my book like on the way home yesterday. 

[00:55:22] Rachel: Oh, so you were ready? So like 

[00:55:24] Alyssa: in it, right? Yeah. At least ready to walk in and have the experience of somebody being like, oh my God, I missed you so much.

[00:55:31] It was 24 hours. Right. Like, and he was home with a sick kid. Right. With a sick kid. Right. Uh, and, and who like woke up overnight in whatever, crying naturally. Correct. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because she was sick. It's why he stayed home. And I didn't experience that when I walked in. Mm-hmm. And got to the end of the night and was like feeling rejected.

[00:56:04] I hadn't put anything out into the world. Mm-hmm. Just all in your noggin read, uh, s muddy novel and was like, oh, I'm gonna walk through the world and be irresistible. And he doesn't want 

[00:56:18] Rachel: it 

[00:56:19] Alyssa: the second he sees it. Mm-hmm. Sleep deprived, home of the sick kid, doesn't matter. All of it. My parents are staying with us at the end of your rope.

[00:56:28] Doesn't 

[00:56:29] Rachel: matter.

[00:56:33] Alyssa: And I literally figured this out about myself last night, where I was like, oh. So often for me, both in, in like my partnership, but also just in relationship in general, I experienced rejection that I haven't named for myself as rejection because the whole like thing that's led up to it is all in my head.

[00:56:54] Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? 

[00:56:57] Rachel: Yeah. So what do you feel it as? Anger or sadness or what? 

[00:57:01] Alyssa: I think sadness, and I've been labeling it as like feeling left out of things. Yeah. Or sadness. And it's really rejection. And it's rejection from something I've conjured up in my own brain that nobody else knows about.

[00:57:18] Rachel: Yeah. And then I experience rejection. Right. And it also like the nervous systems come into play because just thinking about you and Zach, like, um, he's not gonna be trying to flirt or be romantic while parenting and having his in-laws around. So, um, no, he's so overstimulated. Even under the best of circumstances, take away the sick kid.

[00:57:42] Alyssa: Okay. I was gonna say also, just like he was flirting with me in a bar before we started dating, and I didn't know he was flirting. Right? He, uh, I wouldn't say flirting is evident when it comes from him. You have to like really know. He's flirting. To know he's flirting. Uh, it's the opposite of a SM novel, let me tell you.

[00:58:02] Uh, 

[00:58:04] Rachel: it's just his nervous system. 

[00:58:06] Alyssa: A hundred percent. And that he like is a strong feminist. And the last thing he ever wants to do is like inconvenience or make somebody feel uncomfortable. Totally. Or objectify. Correct.

[00:58:27] Rachel: And so here we're honestly, Cody could take a page outta that book. He doesn't mean to, but like, and I know it's like we've been together forever. We're married. I know he's not objectifying me, but like, gimme a

[00:58:45] Oh yeah. It's not real. Yeah. And I have such a different nervous system than you mm-hmm. Where I just like, ugh. I just can, my nervous system is like, ah, retreat. Retreat. 

[00:58:57] Alyssa: Yeah. And I'm like, as long as I feel safe in relationship with you. It's rock and roll. Oh yeah. I already feel safe in relationship with you.

[00:59:05] Let's go. I feel safe with 

[00:59:06] Rachel: Cody. The safest. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Also don't need that right now. Um,

[00:59:16] Alyssa: oh. But I even realized like if people are hanging out without me sometimes I've created this whole thing in my brain where I've almost like inserted myself. I, it was an option for me to be hanging out with them too. And then I feel rejection from that. But I never actually reached out and said, Hey, are you guys going to that show over at whatever?

[00:59:41] Like, let's look at going, I wanna come, or Yeah. Yeah. No. They just know that I say no to most plans and so they don't even reach out. And then I have this whole thing in my brain. Mm-hmm. And I think is actually more rejection than feeling left out sometimes. Yeah. That makes sense. That was new for me. That was my juicy news.

[01:00:05] Learn things every day. Oh man. Well, the juicy part was the S muddy novel, so that's what I'm really into in my fiction era. You know, I felt like a good beach thing, but in actuality I think it's really bad for my life 'cause, and I'm like, hmm, there's a world in which I think that it's like kids watching porn, it's like Vanessa and Kara's thing.

[01:00:25] I'm like, that's, yeah. That's not how people move through the world though. That shouldn't be your expectation for like Right. My relationship is successful. If 

[01:00:33] Rachel: also like, yeah, in the beginning of a relationship it can be like that. 'cause you're just running off infatuation and you maybe don't have kids and you have so much time to just, so much time for recreational activities and then and sleep that everything just at your fingertips.

[01:00:51] Yeah, just everything like mm-hmm. Totally. I, so I do read smut, but only in the winter. I know. This is so weird. Oh, gosh. Opposite. I know, because I read like romantic, so it's like fantasy smut and I don't know why, but like, I don't know 

[01:01:07] Alyssa: what that means. Like, gimme an example of like how that, is there a like a a Have you heard of Unicorn?

[01:01:14] Have you heard of the fourth wing? 

[01:01:16] Rachel: Ah, yes. So it's like this war college and they like, um mm-hmm. Bond with dragons and 

[01:01:23] Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. It's like Harry Potter. But s muddy for you pretty much. 

[01:01:27] Rachel: Um, yeah, sure. So, so we have very 

[01:01:28] Alyssa: different reading taste, so 

[01:01:30] Rachel: Yeah. Like I hate a s muddy beach read. Ugh. But yeah, 

[01:01:34] Alyssa: more 

[01:01:34] Rachel: power to you.

[01:01:34] I'm like, gimme 

[01:01:35] Alyssa: that or make my brain turn on with academia. 

[01:01:39] Rachel: Yeah. I so romantic. Harry Potter Smut is just a winter read for me because I don't read fantasy in the summer. Summer for me is time for like literary fiction novels. Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:56] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Just, yeah, that's what I picture you reading probably, because that's what I've seen.

[01:02:01] Rachel: Hi buddy. Hi buddy. What's up? My chain, um, is, is lost? No, it's not lost. It's in the little pocket of my gray bag. I'll find it for you. And I'm done. I'm gonna be done in about 15 or 20 minutes. Okay. Will you shut that all the way please, honey? Thank you. Motrin coming in hot. He's almost normal right now.

[01:02:23] Alyssa: Also, before we get into this, can we have a moment for the chain? 

[01:02:26] Rachel: So he, the kids have the opportunity to do chores for money if they want to go shopping for themselves. They both had some savings and yesterday nor SEO clothes shopping. And I was like, sure. 'cause I need groceries anyway. And Abel also had some money and he chose, um, one of his things that he chose was this car that can ride on ceilings and walls, which is super cool.

[01:02:50] The other thing he chose is a gold chain. Oh, that's which he wore all day yesterday. And actually with like, his sporty clothing, it was actually like a fashion vibe. Like at first I was like, this is, this is ridiculous. Whatever, Abel. But I was trying to be like, I'm like, okay, cool. It's your own money. You can spend it on what you wanna spend it on, except for it's a big gold chain except for Cammy.

[01:03:12] But um, sure. Yeah. So he got this and it's like really thick. It's, it's so good. I need it. I gotta get a picture of it. I need this like whole picture vibe. Yeah. This before. Close the chain. So 

[01:03:25] Alyssa: good. So good. Um, okay. And now back to your regular scheduled programming. Ooh. Oh, this is for Ash. Yeah. Book right here.

[01:03:35] This is 

[01:03:35] Rachel: screen time. 

[01:03:36] Alyssa: Um, 

[01:03:38] Rachel: so hour on. It's so good. I have followed them I think since around the time I let Nora get a Nintendo Switch, which was a long time ago. They're awesome. They made me feel like I could allow Nora to use video games or whatever. And it didn't have to be this, like all or nothing. I had a lot of narratives about screen time and early parenthood.

[01:04:10] I think a lot of people probably do. Um. Like, I think back on my own nineties childhood and I played Nintendo, like it was my job 

[01:04:20] Alyssa: or like watch the prices. Right. And came home and watched Rosie O'Donnell with my mom in general hospital after school and like popped the CMT countdown on the tv, like for sure.

[01:04:33] Um, yeah. Watched a crap ton of TV to be honest. Me too. What was that like MI think it was on MTV, that dating show. I wasn't allowed to watch it, but late at night I would, I would sneak down and watch it. They're like sitting in a chair and maybe they're blindfolded or something. Like the opposite sex is like walking by.

[01:04:56] Oh, I need anybody listening to this that knows what I'm talking about. I need you to come tell me over on Instagram or put co I think you can comment right in Spotify. You could like comment on the episode please, because now this is gonna drive me nuts. It was some sort, I think it was on MTV. Or like Comedy Central or something.

[01:05:13] Oh. Because it was like something I for sure wasn't supposed to watch. 

[01:05:16] Rachel: Oh, yeah. 

[01:05:17] Alyssa: I wanna say like a knockout or something, but that wasn't it. Ugh, okay. Anyway, that, like, I watched so much TV too, and like junk tv, play video games. Yes. Sage watching YouTube videos and learning about hydraulics. Right. And I'm like, yeah, I, that was so not what I was consuming.

[01:05:38] Rachel: Um, no, it was literally like cartoons at that point were literally just like entertainment exclusively commentary. There was no attempt to be like age appropriate or mm-hmm. Educational in any capacity. Like 

[01:05:51] Alyssa: a good story or moral or whatever. 

[01:05:54] Rachel: Nope. Not at all. Not a chance. A lot of disrespect and bad behavior.

[01:05:58] Yeah. Correct. Totally correct. Um, yeah, and so I, I started following ash and I felt empowered and like, okay, yeah, we are going to have. Screens be a regular part of our life and they helped me kind of create a framework for our household and what, um, felt okay for us and what wasn't gonna be okay. Um, and, but I will say in this interview, they're like, four skills that they outlined was new to me.

[01:06:31] I don't know if they've posted about it before, but I had not seen it. And I found that super helpful. Not just for screen time, but for a lot of things in my kids' life of like wanting them to be familiar with it, wanting them to be able to think critically about it and assess risk. And knowing when they need to involve me or another safe adult.

[01:06:53] Those are skills that I want them to have in so many areas of their life. Um, so I really loved that takeaway. I 

[01:07:02] Alyssa: love their take and this is like, this is what they have helped me shift. Is to screen neutrality, where if I take this screen out of the conversation, if I look at something and I'm like, okay, my child is melting down when this activity ends, or they are pushing boundaries around it or whatever, and it's not a screen and I switch it to something else, how do I feel about it when I make it screen neutral and look at what's their actual need here?

[01:07:47] What are they really medicating? Maybe they're saying I'm exhausted. And the idea of doing a non-preferred task, like going and brushing my teeth and getting ready for bed feels really overwhelming right now when all I wanna do is lay. Last night we got home, Sage and I, from our trip, and I was just like spent, it had been a just emotionally exhausting day for me.

[01:08:16] And I had driven him in the car. We had, it was about four hours each way, so like four hours one day, stayed in the hotel with him four hours the next day. And, and it was, yeah, just like an emotionally exhausting day and the entire car ride there. In fact, despite him having a screen in his lap, he talked to me the whole time.

[01:08:36] Mom, mom, do you wanna listen to this show? Mom? Do you wanna see how this game works? Mom, mom? I'm like, just watch a show. Just like soak it up and watch a show. Try to listen to my s muddy book up here in the AirPod in 

[01:08:46] Rachel: also trying to keep us alive 

[01:08:47] Alyssa: in this vehicle, like, but mostly trying to list my s muddy book up here.

[01:08:54] I, oh my gosh. And I got home and kids were finally down for bed and my parents are here. And for about. 32 minutes. I sat on the couch saying, oh, I really have to go shower. I just like, really? I have to go shower? Oh man, I wish I was showered. God, I gotta go shower for like 32 minutes. No, you just didn't have it in you.

[01:09:22] No. Finally my mom was like, I's gonna wait a guess. I don't think you're gonna shower tonight. Like, I don't think that, and I did. I ultimately did. But the idea of moving from just laying on the couch, watching the Yankees game to going to shower felt exhausting. 

[01:09:37] Rachel: Mm-hmm. 

[01:09:38] Alyssa: When I look at screens as neutral and can see what are they getting from this activity or experience, then I'm able to look at, okay, what are other ways to provide that?

[01:09:56] If we hit a point where I wanna set a boundary for some reason around a screen, what are other ways to access? Could they lay and listen to an audio book? Could they, if it's connection focused, call a friend, FaceTime a friend. Right? Like what are other ways to get that need met? And Ash has helped me think through that.

[01:10:19] Yeah. Yeah. Also, their pool analogy in this, like the water analogy. I've used it so many times and forever crediting them with it. But it slaps. 

[01:10:31] Rachel: Yeah, it does. One other thing that they, I feel like do such a good job of modeling when they share about their own family and also like just sharing about in general on their Instagram page, is being collaborative when you are creating screen boundaries.

[01:10:53] Like I think about YouTube in our family, um, Nora loves watching like family vlogs. Which I'm fine with. Um, the other thing that she loves that we've decided we're not fine with are YouTube shorts. And not because she was like stumbling upon anything that I felt was inappropriate or she shouldn't be exposed to, but more that I, she is a big dopamine seeker and like novelty seeker and I don't want her to continue to reinforce those neural pathways of like, I want something new every three seconds.

[01:11:33] And so we were discussing it together, Cody and I, and you know, he, part of our initial reaction was like, let's just do away with YouTube in general. And then we kinda like chewed on it for a little bit. And I was like, that really doesn't feel fair because there are parts of YouTube that I don't feel like are problematic for her.

[01:11:56] And. She likes them and I think it's fine for her to watch like long form content on YouTube if it's appropriate and within our family values. So we sat her down and we said like, Hey, we are okay with you continuing to use YouTube. Like here are our parameters around using it. Here's what you're allowed to watch on it, and you're not allowed to watch shorts and here's why.

[01:12:20] Mm-hmm. And talk to her about how like it trains your brain to constantly want, and I shared with her, I'm like, if I go on Instagram and I am just like quickly scrolling through really short videos, my brain just wants more and more and more, more and more. It's never satisfied. It's hard for me to step away.

[01:12:39] And I was like, I'm a full grown adult and my brain is fully developed. You are still building those skills and one way that I'm gonna help you is by not letting you have access to shorts right now. 

[01:12:51] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that, that you. I said this to them in the podcast episode, I said it to them. We did a, a joint, um, workshop for folks for back to school, for screens for anyone, and it's still available for anyone who has ordered Ashes Book and big kids.

[01:13:13] You can still access that. We'll link it here. And I told them this and thing I'll say forever. They have such a deep respect for kids. And with that comes conversations like these ones instead of a, Nope, we're not watching YouTube yet, because it's not good for your brain. They have enough respect for children to say, Hey, you know what?

[01:13:37] This part of YouTube I'm really nervous about. Here's why. This is what happens in your brain. I wanna figure out a way that you can still access the other parts of YouTube. And know that it might be really hard for you to control yourself with these parts. Mm-hmm. So let's figure this out together. It involves respect for children to slow down and have that conversation.

[01:14:00] You're saying, A, I value their opinion. BI think that they can understand this information and digest it and be a part of the creative problem solving process. Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:13] Rachel: Yeah. 

[01:14:15] Alyssa: I love their respect for children. Oh. And I told it to them the first time it caught 'em off guard. They're like, what do you mean?

[01:14:21] Rachel: They're like, what? It's normal. 

[01:14:23] Alyssa: Yeah, exactly. 'cause they just, it is inherent for them. Yeah. It's part of who they're, it's normal for them. Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:30] Rachel: Yeah. So one other thing that we decided through that discussion was like, my kids don't have access to tablets unless we're traveling. But like sometimes I'll let Nora watch something on my computer in her room.

[01:14:40] And so we were having this conversation about like. How's it gonna be for you to not be able to watch shorts when they're so easy to get to and yada yada? And so what we kind of came to together was that YouTube will only be used on the living room tv. Oh, that's a great idea. Where we're in a communal space and Yeah.

[01:14:58] And sometimes I'll hear her watching a short and I'll just be like, Hey, no, remember, like shorts aren't, they're not on the menu. Yeah. Yeah. And she now will just be like, okay. Yeah. At first there was some pushback and frustration at Sure. Which makes sense. I mean, just the dopamine of media like that Oh, for sure.

[01:15:15] Is so addictive. Um, but now it's more like, okay, yeah, I'll switch and it'll be a different ball game when Abel is using YouTube, he's not really into YouTube yet, but he's not my rule follower. He is like my rule pusher bender. Yeah. 

[01:15:29] Alyssa: Yeah. Birthed one too. 

[01:15:31] Rachel: Um, and so that may look different with him when he's older.

[01:15:34] Mm-hmm. But with her. It's working for 

[01:15:38] Alyssa: now, speaking of which, um, Mila's current, favorite thing to say is try, if I say like today, I said, Hey Mila, if you're laying down in that chair, our dining room chairs, I actually hate them. They're like super. I got them free on Facebook Marketplace when we moved here.

[01:15:56] Rachel: Wow. And 

[01:15:57] Alyssa: they are just like wobbly. They're not super steady. Kids fall out of them all the time. The legs, if you wiggle certain ways, will just like sweep under and like the chair goes down. Okay. Well, so she is, yeah. It's a situation. I need new dining room chairs, whatever. I also need new dining room tables, so I'm just waiting on this.

[01:16:15] Um, but, but. She was sitting in it and she started to like wiggle around. She's in her sleep sack. It's almost nap. She starts like laying down in the chair and I said, Mila, it's not safe to lay down in that chair. You'll fall out and bonk. And she goes, try. And I said, you can try. You will fall out and bonk.

[01:16:34] And she goes, try everything right now. Yeah, everything. Hey Mila, we're gonna turn off the TV and get ready for bed. Try. Try what? You're like, try 

[01:16:44] TV 

[01:16:45] Rachel: on. And they're like, no. You're like, no, I know you can. And turn the TV on. I'm 

[01:16:48] Alyssa: saying, we're done. We're done. Yeah. Everything is dry. So speaking of raising a kid who is a rule follower and a kid who is not, try everything.

[01:16:59] It's so good. I'm like, bless. It's so me. Oh, it's so hundred percent me. I'm like, let's just try it. Let's give it a whirl and people are like, yeah, no, we know we can do this. We know we are capable of doing this. 

[01:17:13] Rachel: We're saying it's a bad idea. 

[01:17:14] Alyssa: Yeah. Let's give it a whirl try. Oh, man. Oh, all right. I am so stoked for Ashe's book.

[01:17:27] They are my go-to when it comes to like screens and boundaries and learning about them and navigating them. They're just such a phenomenal resource in this space and this book, being out into the world is jazzy for all humans. I think the anxious Jen has a a, a bunch of goodness packed into it, and I have a lot of respect for Jonathan's work.

[01:17:52] And I think it created a lot of anxiety without a lot of answers or structure. And I feel like Ashe's book coming on the heels of that is so perfect because it provides practical strategies for humans raising kids today and really goes into the data as well. So super, super stoked. Ghost neg power on managing screen time to benefit the whole family.

[01:18:23] Also follow the gamer educator over on Instagram. 

[01:18:28] Rachel: Ashes. Really a gym. Yeah. They're also my go-to, their Instagram is what I go to if I'm like, Ugh, I'm not sure how to handle this Tech boundary. Same. Yeah, 

[01:18:38] Alyssa: same. Or like this even tech platform. Like I was like, at some point Ash just like teach me about Roblox.

[01:18:44] They were like, yes, same. I'm 

[01:18:45] Rachel: still saying no to Roblox and it's because I don't know enough about it. Yeah, 

[01:18:52] Alyssa: Ash. Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voices of your village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content?

[01:19:06] Come join us at seed dot and dot. So SEW take a screenshot of you tuning in. Share it on the gram and tag seed. And so to let me know your key takeaway, if you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.