Sex, Power and Consent: Raising Caring, Connected Boys with Joanna Schroeder and Christopher Pepper

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You are listening to Voices of Your Village, and today's conversation is one I've been looking forward to for a long time. If you are raising boys or teaching boys, or frankly just care about the humans they're becoming, this episode is for you. I'm joined by Joanna Schroeder and Christopher Pepper, authors of the new book Talk to your Boys. We dig into how boys are being shaped by the culture around them, including what they're exposed to online, what they're learning or not learning about emotions and connection, and how we as adults can show up in powerful, empathetic ways. This is such a rich, important conversation about masculinity, care, vulnerability, and how to raise boys who grow into connected, kind, emotionally healthy men. All right, folks. Let's dive in.

[00:00:55] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:01:12] Let's dive in together. What led you to be like, yay, I gotta write a book on this?

[00:01:17] Joanna: You know, I had been, I mean, I have a degree in gender studies from UCLA, and so I've always had that kind of on my mind. I mostly worked as a media analysts looking at gender in the media and trying to figure out kind of what role exposure to media played in our kids' lives.

[00:01:37] Early on, I was really looking at girls, but what I discovered is that a lot of people were looking at how the media was influencing girls and not very many people were looking at what was happening with boys, and I had my own two little boys at the time. They were probably like. Two and four and a half at the time, and I was like, oh, there's a huge gap here.

[00:01:55] Eventually started working as an editor at The Good Men Project, focused mostly on parenting early on and raising boys. And I had a lot of awesome engaged dads that were writing and editing under me, and I just thought, why is nobody talking about what's going on with boys? And at that time it felt like it was just a non-existent topic, and men were struggling and they were saying something's going wrong, and it was really hard to identify what it was.

[00:02:21] The longer I spent working on this, the more I realized that the people were gonna start talking about it soon, and I wanted to be there while it was happening. It wasn't long until I had that. Twitter thread that Christopher saw where I was saying, Hey, if you have white sons, you need to look at how they're being marketed to online.

[00:02:43] Because I was seeing some really dicey stuff in my own kids' timelines. Not the stuff they were searching, not the stuff they were necessarily liking, but what was being shown to them based on their searches. Sure. And that's when everyone said, you gotta write a book. But I didn't wanna write a book just about one type of boy I knew I wanted to write a book for any parent of any boy.

[00:03:04] And that's where Christopher comes in, 

[00:03:06] Alyssa: Christopher here to save the day. The perspective on all boys you here for 

[00:03:14] Christopher: Well, the, the nice thing about my job, I've been working in, um, public schools in San Francisco for more than 20 years, and the nice thing about that job is that I've been able to teach and work with thousands of students.

[00:03:27] So I, I have seen. A lot of different types of boys, a lot of different types of kids, and been able to build relationships with them and get to know them and really see some commonalities that don't always fit with stereotypes. I think a lot of people have some kind of fear or worry about teenagers and, um, I always like to remind people, like, teenagers can be really fun.

[00:03:49] They can be really enjoyable to spend time with. They're hilarious. And that they're often, you know, they, they really love fairness. They love to learn about the world. So encouraging adults to be open-minded that, you know, I think a lot of adults with kids who were growing into teenagers, it's say like, oh, I can't, you know, I'm really worried about this time period.

[00:04:12] I'm having soine around the house and trying to remind them like, it could be that, but it often is a really joyful time in a place where you can connect with your kids on a much deeper and richer level and start to talk about the world and. Start to learn who they are because they start to become people who are different than you and different than the other people in your family, but are fascinating and really interesting.

[00:04:36] And it's cool to get to know this person as they're growing up and stay connected with them. And the other thing about boys that I've been able to do over the last decade is we've actually had a program in our schools to have boys groups in schools. And that's where I've really learned a lot about how boys are today and how much they're ready to talk about emotions and connect with one another.

[00:04:59] So that's some of the more recent learning that I've been able to bring to this project. 

[00:05:04] Alyssa: Super rad. I love just the respect for humans. You seem to have, I dig that. Uh, and think about Lisa to more's work. I feel like she has really helped normalize, like teenagers are humans and they're pretty cool. Yes.

[00:05:20] And I think is really helping shift that narrative and landscape too. Here wouldn't. You were saying, Joanna, that you're, I am the mom of a boy and a girl. I have two tiny humans. And um, and I'm thinking about the like, oh, it's what they were exposed to online that you mentioned, that not what they were liking, not what they were searching for, but what was coming their way.

[00:05:44] What are some of the kinds of things that were coming their way? 

[00:05:46] Joanna: I remember once when they were mostly into like kind of scatological, like gross out jokes on their Instagram pages. And this is after they were age 13. So they, they did have their own little device that they were looking at Instagram on.

[00:05:58] And I monitored it very closely, but I was kind of looking, and one of them was scrolling, just liking kind of all the memes. All of the images and memes are like vaguely familiar, which is kind of the point of a meme, right? Mm-hmm. So they could just go through and like, like, like, like, like, and one of them was a historical picture that had Hitler, like the one in the amphitheater where someone's leaning down and whispering it to him.

[00:06:22] And I was like, wait, what was that? And we went back and we read it. Normally these are like that meme is someone saying something horrible to Hitler or sabotaging him. And in this case it was someone tipping him off so that the Germans would win the war. And I was like, wait a minute, why would this be served in my kids' feed?

[00:06:41] And I started looking at their like. It didn't make any sense. And since I had done ad buying for Your Tango where I work as an editor, I had a sense of how they were targeting how that happens. And it's all very purposeful. And I started doing my own investigation. I started doing specific searches in my own social media accounts so that I could keep an eye on what would start being shown to me.

[00:07:02] And I started doing Fortnite and Minecraft and specific requests around Minecraft and like jokes, certain kind of jokes, edgy stuff, like Edge Lord was a big thing when this first came up. And that's when I started seeing this stuff. And then when I went to YouTube and started researching what was shown after the, you know, how to build a rollercoaster in Minecraft search, they watch a video.

[00:07:25] It's very specific, it's very appropriate. Then the little ads, the things that are auto scrolling after. We're becoming progressively as I clicked in more and more, um, I don't even wanna say conservative 'cause I don't think it represents politically conservative values, but more hate based, more bigoted, more anti-woman, more like kind of white power, low key white power stuff.

[00:07:49] And that's when I realized, oh, this is a thing. These boys are being targeted. This is actual predatory behavior and what they want from these kids. It's not, you know, exposure or something that we actually worry about with kids online. It's all ideological. They are recruiting them 

[00:08:07] Alyssa: and it's from that place of power and control.

[00:08:10] Right? And we do this when kids are young. It starts when they're young, where we. Tend to teach them that what they should be striving for is power and control. If we come in and we're like, no, I am the power at be, I have power over you. I will assert that power and dominance over you. And then that's what they're striving for.

[00:08:30] That's what they're supposed to try and have in friendships, in peer groups, in spaces, and it makes total sense how it gets to that point. And then it's just, I guess, doubled down in social. Yeah. And what they're being exposed to from a like. 

[00:08:44] Joanna: Have power. That's how you're successful. Well, and like, what's that thing that starts to happen when they get toward adolescence?

[00:08:51] They start pushing back more and they start, you know, if you always wear the color pink, they're never gonna wear pink. You know what I mean? Totally. If you're, whatever it is, they, you love the individuation. Yeah. The individuation in that's healthy and it's normal. And as they, every year, you know, they're pushing back those middle school years, they're, they're testing out some controversial takes.

[00:09:10] Right. They're trying to see how you're gonna react. All very normal. And there are these people online who are like, oh, hey, this is my time to get in there. Just like they did when there were the kids that were smoking on the playground in the eighties that were obviously not being supervised. Right.

[00:09:25] They targeted those kids. And what I think is so. I don't wanna say smart, but what was so savvy of them is they noticed that young white boys especially, were looking for, like you said, for power and for answers, and for somebody to tell them why they're sad, why they're frustrated, why they feel so disempowered, and the first person that's gonna do that is probably going to be somebody who wants to exploit them.

[00:09:54] Alyssa: Sure, sure. As a teacher in this space, Christopher? Mm-hmm. When you are navigating this in the day to day, how are you seeing like desire for power dynamics and control playing out? Do you see it that like this is just a human thing, like everyone would like to have some power and control and that helps 'em feel safe?

[00:10:17] Or were you seeing it in different ways in your boys versus girls or across genders? 

[00:10:24] Christopher: Well, I think, you know, our society around and our views around gender and the roles of men and women in society have changed a lot over the last a hundred years, and especially over the last 50 years in ways that I largely think are, are really positive that we've seen a lot of openings for girls to move into spaces where in the past there would've been barriers or would've been more restrictions on their involvement, or they wouldn't have been encouraged to go into certain roles.

[00:10:49] And we've had the Me Too movement, which teenagers heard about. They either heard about it first, you know, when it was first in the news, or they heard about it kind of secondhand, or they've heard about canceling people and they make lots of jokes about, oh, you're gonna get canceled, things like that.

[00:11:03] That's a real regular part of teenage conversation. Now, I think that there are a lot of boys who, and frankly a lot of men who are a little confused by how all those changes and don't quite know like, what is the role for men today? And a little unsure about. What behavior is okay, what behavior is not okay, how to act, how to be a good man.

[00:11:23] All those kind of questions are sort of live for adults and they're also live for, for young people. And they come in at the, you know, those are common things that people worry about, sort of figuring out their identity around middle school. And people are really trying to figure out who they are in the world to figure out what kind of friends they wanna have, what kind of hobbies they wanna do.

[00:11:45] That's where you see a lot of cliques forming. And you see like, oh, this is the group of people who play sports and these are the people who do really well on tests and hang out and do college Bowl on the weekend or something. Um, so. That is all common. I think what's changed is that kids now have phones, they have internet access, and they're navigating a lot of those questions online.

[00:12:06] So, and they're navigating them by themselves. 'cause it's not a computer in the living room. Usually with an adult looking over their shoulder, it's on their phone, in their room with the door closed and with nobody usually watching over what they're looking at. And so they're often going online. They're looking for, you know, pretty simple kind of questions.

[00:12:24] Often it's video game tips, like Joanna was mentioning. Sometimes it's questions about self-improvement. How do I get bigger muscles? How do I get somebody to like me? Um, sometimes it's basic information like how does sex work or what do boobs look like? Things like that. Like really kind of between or tween kind of questions.

[00:12:42] And as soon as the algorithm figures out. That you are a teenage boy or you know, if you're putting in questions like that, it pretty quickly figures out, oh, this is a teenage boy asking these questions, and you got a lot of other things coming at you. As Joan was mentioning some examples, and she was mentioning examples from when her kids were younger, and that was several years ago, this has not gotten better.

[00:13:04] The algorithms that our kids are up against are super well-trained and they are very targeted. And teenage boys get a lot of messages that I don't think are very helpful in moving them toward sort of pro-social behavior, helping them grow into the kind of people that you'd want to live next to having your life have your child be friends with or date like, it's just, it's a bunch of things that are, are just not very good for boys.

[00:13:31] Joanna: You know, and I think it's key to note that when they're being shown this, nobody is saying, oh, hey, you're a teenage boy. They're saying, totally, this is what men do. And they're not wondering what teenage boys do. They're wondering what men do. And even if it's not right in the front of their mind, they're not asking the specific question, what do men do?

[00:13:51] That's the information that they are gathering from around them. And when they see that stuff, it could be, as Christopher said, as simple as like how to get girls to like you. And what it really is is some very anti-woman dehumanizing content. It's not actually tips about being friendly and respectful and asking about their interests like we might like.

[00:14:11] And that's what leads us to write the book is like. If, if nobody's having that conversation with them, then they're gonna look to the internet. And the internet is always going to have something to sell. That's what the internet is doing. It's selling you a thing. So we wanted to help parents learn to have the conversation.

[00:14:27] Instead they figure that their kid's gonna ask if they're curious. We know that that is pretty much never true or not always true and we need to start the conversation so that they're not out there searching for that stuff and getting, you know, I don't wanna say toxic, but unhealthy answers. 

[00:14:45] Alyssa: Sure. And maybe like not in values alignment.

[00:14:49] And when I was on book tour for Tiny Humans, big Emotions, my first book, fun Inside Baseball News yesterday hit the New York Times bestseller list, which was show. Oh my gosh. Congratulations. My gosh. How cool. Thanks. Yes. 22 months later. Super fun. But we, when I was on book tour for that, one of the events I did was sponsored by a dad organization.

[00:15:09] We had a hundred dad. I gave a talk and one dad afterwards. This wasn't just such an incredible group. They were so engaged and we're talking about emotional intelligence in tiny humans here and, and how we foster it. And one of the dads is like, no, this makes total sense. This sounds great. And what happens when my kid is like crying at school or saying like, I don't like it when you do that to me.

[00:15:35] And then kids start bullying him or he gets beat up. He's like, that's what happened to me as a kid. Like there's not a world in which I could say this or do this at school and knock, get my ass kicked. And so I wanna chat about that of like the, my friend Tristan Reese says like, I wanna raise kids for the world we live in with the tools to shift it.

[00:15:57] And I love that. What is it? Isn't it cool? Wow, I could dig it. He said it to me years and years ago. It just stuck with me. And so thinking about like, how do we give them the tools to navigate the world they live in now? Empower them. Empower to shift it and to change it. 'cause to your point, Christopher, yeah, we've shifted a lot of the narrative around what it means to be a man or a woman and what our roles are and all that jazz.

[00:16:22] And also, I see this in Dads a lot, where we're like, dads are so much more involved than they ever have been generationally. And also they weren't raised with the same conditioning or tools or whatnot that my husband's like, yeah, you've been holding babies and changing diapers since you were a young child.

[00:16:41] This is, these are my first kids, right? Like this is so much newer for him in a way that for me is a really subconscious second nature in a lot of ways. And so I'm curious what that, what that looks like to be like. Yeah, the narrative has shifted, but like has culture really caught up with it 

[00:16:59] Joanna: in the same ways?

[00:17:00] I need a second because I put in the chat, but the yes construction guys next door go so loud and I'm like losing my mind. Let me ask them to turn this. Yay. Go, go, go. We'll wait for you smash mouth off or whatever. It's 

[00:17:12] Alyssa: smash mouth obsessed. Oh, that's so good. Christopher, do you have kids? 

[00:17:18] Christopher: Yeah, I have a 16-year-old boy and a 22-year-old.

[00:17:22] Alyssa: Sweet rad. How has it been to, like, how has your 16-year-old felt about like this book and this content and the process? 

[00:17:30] Christopher: He's actually really proud. Um, 

[00:17:32] Alyssa: awesome 

[00:17:33] Christopher: that it exists. He, both me and my wife are, are writers, so he often is talking about her books. I think he's glad that he can talk about my book now.

[00:17:42] Alyssa: Cool. What does she write about? 

[00:17:45] Christopher: She writes really poetic, beautiful memoir, sort of poetic memoir. Ah, 

[00:17:50] Alyssa: cool. 

[00:17:51] Christopher: Did he mask 

[00:17:52] Joanna: on? Wait, how does it sound? Let's all listen. Much better. It's good, right? You can't hear anything I get. You can't hear it, can't it? No, because they're right on the, so our house had fire damage in 2018 from the Woolsey wildfires, and we're doing our fire repairs now, and we're living in a town home where my kids are.

[00:18:10] So I come here to the one room that's still standing and this is the day that it's like they're working with. Anyway, we're okay. I have a good mic here. We're, yeah. You're slaying this mom life, right? That's why not have a full-time job and publish a book and have your house under construction. Answer.

[00:18:30] Back to the task at hand. Back to the task at hand. I asked. Have something to say. Yeah. Okay. So one thing we hear a lot in online discourse about, you know, equality in the home and dads being good role models is this quote that's if he. If he wanted to, he would. So whether it's about sharing the labor at home or being more engaged with kids cleaning up around the house, and it really, I agree with it.

[00:18:59] You wanna call bullshit on it? 

[00:19:00] Alyssa: Oh, I wanna call bullshit on it. Let's stay. I, 

[00:19:03] Joanna: well, yeah, right. I agree with the idea that if he wanted to, he would make an effort to learn how to do it right. But when it comes to talking about it comes to being like a highly engaged, emotional partner and doing something different than what his father and his grandfather and his older brother did.

[00:19:22] This isn't something where you can just snap your fingers. And what I always try to explain to people is this is generational trauma. That it wasn't just that someone said, don't cry, you little baby. They also punched them in the face. Right? They got beaten up. Yeah, they got shoved down. They got seriously injured and sometimes by their own fathers for showing emotion.

[00:19:42] So when we start talking about if these dads wanted to be more emotionally engaged, they would, as if it's a switch that we can flip. I feel like we forget that a lot of men have to heal a profound internal wound in order to do it differently. And the amazing thing is we see them doing it. I see my husband doing it.

[00:20:04] I don't know how Christopher was raised, but he's so engaged with his students and with his kids. I know that that work is happening, but it's gotta be men talking to other dads, dad's talking to dads about like, we want to change this. It's not going to be easy. And then women, yeah, like, like your husband was saying, we were raised to be emotionally engaged.

[00:20:28] We were rewarded for that while they were literally being physically injured for doing it. So we definitely need to be a team. We definitely need to move forward and we need to change things, but it's not a tool that everyone already has in their toolbox, so to speak. 

[00:20:45] Christopher: I totally agree. There's a lot of room for growth for men.

[00:20:48] So part of the work of working with boys is men need to do work with themselves. They need to make sure they actually have friends and supportive help in their lives to go to therapy if they need someone to talk to, um, about how to make, actively make change. That is work. And, and it can be sad work 'cause you're sort of recognizing all the things you didn't get that you wish you would've had when you were a kid.

[00:21:10] And it's a real gift to give to a child, to, to do your own healing and to get better at things. But it can be painful along the way I think with. The kind of question around bullying and people being treated roughly for showing their emotions or for being vulnerable. That's real. And I think all kids, and this comes up a lot with boys, they need a place where they can let their guard down and be fully human.

[00:21:37] And the home can be that place you wanna be an adult where they can come to, uh, come to you with everything that's going on in their life or everything that's on their mind and just be able to feel safe talking about it. That's not gonna be everywhere in the world. Realistically. There's gonna be some places where they need to learn that skill of like holding things back a little bit, not sharing everything that they experience with everyone.

[00:22:02] But I think there's a lot we can do to expand what's acceptable in schools and in places where kids are together. I don't like seeing boys develop this sort of hard shell where they don't let anyone in, they. Try to present a front, like, I'm never hurt, I'm never vulnerable. You can't do anything to hurt me.

[00:22:22] I think that's really dangerous. It sort of is the opposite of what you'd want if you want boys to connect with one another. Connection requires vulnerability. It requires letting people see the real you. Um, that's one of the activities that we do in our boys group is, um, an activity that we, we partner with a group called the Ever Forward Club, and their founder, Ashanti Branch, has this activity that he works with us on implementing.

[00:22:48] And it's a mask activity, and it's really simple. It's just young people. And you can do this with adults too. Draw a mask that represents, and then on the front of the mask, three things that the world sees or that you think the world sees about you. If they just look at you or they make assumptions about you.

[00:23:04] And then on the back of the mask, what are three things that are actually true about you that maybe not everyone knows or not everyone sees. And that simple activity with a little bit of art. Then followed with some vulnerable sharing is a great way to kind of let those masks down, to let people start to know each other in a more real way.

[00:23:24] Um, we do that on the second week of our groups and it's really powerful. And often boys are crying, they're hugging, they become really tight with one another, and for the rest of that time together, they are much more supportive of one another. They can start to really build cohesion together. And that's something that a lot of boys really need right now.

[00:23:44] Joanna: And if you think about it, what blows my mind as Christopher says this, and every time I hear it, it just kind of cracks my heart open. These boys have probably never been asked a question like that in their entire lives. A question about like, what can you, what do you feel you can't share with your friends?

[00:24:01] What do you wish you could tell people? What do you wish people understood about you or just simply what's going on in your inner life? They probably haven't talked about that since they were five, because as they get older. It's almost like a dance that we do with boys where the, the, the parent starts to worry, like, like someone mentioned to you about their kid being targeted for being weak.

[00:24:23] So the parent tries to help the kid get tougher, and to some degree that's important. They need to be able to do their outside world face, and then they get a little tougher and we kind of reward that and we stop asking. And then they get a little bit tougher in response, and then we withdraw a little bit.

[00:24:38] Maybe we're hugging them less. It's a dance we're doing together until they're 14. And they're kind of like, they have, like, they, they're longing to be held, but they don't know that they can even ask that. And one interesting thing I've seen with teenagers is that a result of that kind of isolation and nobody asking about their emotional selves is that they may get a, a, a girlfriend or a boyfriend, usually in, in the cases that I've seen as a girlfriend.

[00:25:05] And the girlfriend wants to know about his inner life and she's asking and he's like. Oh, thank God. Somebody's asking how I'm feeling. Someone's asking what went wrong and why I am mad, why I'm saying this is amazing. And then it becomes that girlfriend becomes a dumping ground for his feelings in a way that a parent should be.

[00:25:28] And in a way that a 14 or 16 or even maybe 18-year-old girl is not equipped to handle. The girls get overwhelmed and the boys sense that, and it becomes this cycle of sort of desperation and clinging where they're like, no, no, no, you can't leave me. You can't leave me. And that's when we start to see really unhealthy dynamic.

[00:25:47] I can probably name five, five girls who've brought this up to me and parents have to step in then and, and make sure we're raising our kids so that our boys don't have to dump on these girls in their lives. 

[00:25:59] Alyssa: Well, and I wonder too, like what role, like peer relationships you were saying Christopher, like that role of connection in how crucial that is?

[00:26:08] We, I think that. Vulnerability has been seen as feminine. And so if we're saying like, what is masculinity? If it isn't vulnerability, then our boys don't have the opportunity to connect with each other to build these like deep, meaningful relationships where they can look behind the mask. Right. And so what kind of conversations can we have?

[00:26:33] What are things we can do to shift that narrative, that vulnerability is only feminine? 

[00:26:39] Christopher: Well, I, I would really actually like to see campaigns around this sort of in a public way. We've had great work over the last few decades around STEM and girls being involved in, you know, going into science and technology, engineering and math, these kind of careers or seeing those as possibilities for them.

[00:26:56] And it's actually produced results we've seen. Yeah. Changes sima's 

[00:27:00] Alyssa: work. Yeah. 

[00:27:00] Christopher: In the number of girls who are going into those careers and going into those fields and. That is a, you know, it's active campaign where you see posters up in school, you see ads on tv, you have speakers coming to school and saying, you know, I'm a mathematician.

[00:27:15] You could, this could be your life and active mentorship programs. Like, it's a, it's a big effort and I think it's great. I think it's really, we need to keep those kind of programs going. I would like to see programs that are really encouraging boys to think about care work. So, um, to be seeing, you know, both in the home, like things like you were talking about, caring for little kids, taking care of elders, contributing to the home in a more full way.

[00:27:38] I think like all those things should be emphasized, but also saying like, this is a whole range of careers that are open to you. And Sure if you're interested in welding or car mechanics, like. Those are things you can go into, but those are not the only jobs that exist for men. You could also be a social worker, you could be a therapist, 

[00:27:55] Alyssa: early childhood educator, come join us.

[00:27:57] Christopher: Totally. And you could be a, you know, you could be a teacher, you can be someone who works in a hospital, caring for other people. Those are good jobs that pay decently. And where we actually really need men and instead of seeing an increase in men going into those fields, we're seeing a decrease. And that's very concerning for me.

[00:28:14] I think it's something that we could have a public campaign around. Yeah. And then in our own lives, just trying to find moments where boys are showing care for one another or for other people and really celebrating those. I think boys get a lot of reinforcement for things like, oh, you shot a great three pointer, or you did something that was like really tough and like you showed how tough you are.

[00:28:35] You practice extra hard. And video games have a big reinforcement component built into them. I would like to see boys being celebrated for like, you did a such a good job taking care of the, your 3-year-old cousin today. Or I loved how you got up and you washed the dishes for everybody and, um, didn't complain about it and did it without asking, or you 

[00:28:54] Joanna: were so kind to that person who was trying to find their way through the grocery store.

[00:28:58] That was so kind of you. 

[00:29:00] Christopher: Yes. So finding moments like that to celebrate care work and then, you know, thinking about having boys do babysitting, elder care, like intentionally trying to say like, oh, that's not just work for girls to do. Those are things that we could encourage boys to do, that we can hire boys to do and let them, and then for adults, adult men, like show yourself doing all those things.

[00:29:25] Actively demonstrate that in your life by putting yourself out there, being visible, taking care of other people, and showing that you can be a strong man and that can be part of how you are a man in the world, is taking care of your community. 

[00:29:39] Joanna: And moms, it's so important for us to verbalize some of our thoughts that maybe we're keeping inside.

[00:29:46] A story that I tell about when I knew that I really wanted to spend the rest of my life with my husband was we were visiting my grandmother who had a form of Parkinson's and she was in a wheelchair where her feet were elevated a little bit, and my husband was talking with her and she wasn't that cogent.

[00:30:04] And he put his hand on her foot, which had like a nursing home grippy sock, and he just kind of held her her foot, like while he talked to her. And it was so kind. And I was like, this is a kind person. So we tell these stories. These are things that women notice about our partners or our guy friends, or things we loved about our fathers.

[00:30:27] Maybe we're not talking about it. Just that casual thing instead of, oh my gosh, he was so handsome. He was handsome, but there were a lot of handsome guys. He was the one that put his hand on my grandmother's foot while he spoke to her. And it was such a, such a sign of warmth. And if I don't say it, then they don't know that that's something that I value.

[00:30:48] Right. 

[00:30:49] Alyssa: Yeah. Okay. We were just watching the quarterback Netflix series, the most recent one. And Kirk Cousins, one of the quarterbacks, he ends up getting benched. He's a veteran quarterback, and this rookie's coming up and they show him, he like finds out he's getting benched. This rookie's gonna take his place and his wife is sharing, and she cries while she's sharing it that he pulled into the driveway and she went out to check like on him.

[00:31:13] He's sitting in his car. He had taken a moment to call the rookie quarterback to say like, this job is yours and I'm gonna be here to support you any way I can through it. I'm here as a resource and a reference any way I can be. And she's crying. And she was like, that's the kind of guy, he's like, he's the guy who comes in and who.

[00:31:33] She was like, he cried. We all cried, but he took a minute to be kind to reach out and she was like, that's why I married this dude. I'm like, yes, more of this. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, agree. And I think you're right. These are things that we notice but we don't share and we're like, that's what stands out.

[00:31:49] Those are the people. Even just in, in friendship, in life, even outside of partnership. These are humans I wanna be around. Mm-hmm. These are the humans that I wanna be connected to. And being able to narrate that I think is rad. What about for folks who are tuning in, who maybe have like tweens or teens and have boys who shut down, who are going silent, going inside, going into the room, shutting the door, and feel like they can't figure out how to talk to them or get them to talk or connect?

[00:32:22] Joanna: Christopher has this great tool that I now tell everybody, and it's in our book, and it is just to start a conversation with, I've noticed, or, um, I'm getting the sense of, so you could say, I've noticed you're spending a lot more time in your room with the door shut and I wonder what's going on. Or, I, I notice that you're spending a lot of time on your video games more than you ever did before, and I suspect you might be feeling overwhelmed by school and I wonder if we wanna talk about it.

[00:32:57] And instead of saying you're in your room all the time with the door shut, I know something's wrong. You notice, you suspect, and you can verify, is that, am I on the right track? And yes, they're gonna be annoyed with you. That's annoying. Like, thanks mom. Thanks for noticing. Right. I would be so annoyed right now, 47 years old if my mom was like, I've noticed that you, but it's a lot better than if she came in and was like, you're doing all these things wrong.

[00:33:26] And what it does is it respects their individuality and it invites them into conversation. Even if it doesn't happen right. Then it's, oh, my parents are noticing, parents are noticing something. 

[00:33:40] Alyssa: Yeah. It's a form of care and it's non-threatening. I dig that. 

[00:33:43] Christopher: I think to recognize like those, it's hurt, it's hurtful.

[00:33:47] It's often sad when a kid starts to pull away or spends less time with you. Often those times are when you start to hear things like, you're so annoying. I hate you. Get away from me. Um, to sort of recognize that, yes, that is painful and totally common and 

[00:34:04] Alyssa: yeah, 

[00:34:05] Christopher: happens in most households, and it does not mean that your kid is gonna hit you for the rest of their life.

[00:34:10] They may. Not even hit you with the rest of the day. So to just kind of develop, let it slide off of you a little bit, that you hear those words recognize like they're a teenager. This is part of the process of growing up, is that they're trying out those things and they're often trying 'em out with you because it feels safe, because they know that you're not actually gonna go away.

[00:34:30] You're not gonna say like, oh, I'm done with you. I'm not ever coming back. Um, so they trust that they can let their emotions out a little bit and that you're still gonna be there for them. And that is really your job is to still be there for them. So to keep coming back, being curious about what they get interested in is a really good tool to kind of follow their interests, even if they don't make any sense to you.

[00:34:53] Like, why are they collecting these weird dolls? Or why do they get so obsessed with this video game and they've been playing it for hours and hours? Or they talk about it all the time, 

[00:35:01] Joanna: or why do they speak in memes? They speak in memes, it's all taglines. You're like, what is happening? What happened to this child?

[00:35:09] It's normal. 

[00:35:10] Christopher: Curiosity is a really good power to use in that sense. Like mm-hmm. Explain this to me. Help me understand this. I was talking to some other parents and they didn't understand it and I thought maybe you'd be able to help. Things like that are really good tools. So just leaning on curiosity and, and it may start, you may be furious to start and we'd sometimes we say in the book like, get curious, not furious.

[00:35:30] So recognize if you're feeling super angry, like, oh my gosh, we have plans tonight and the kid is not getting off the computer and we have to get going and my impulse is like, go yell at them or take the computer and pull out the cord and smash it, or whatever your emotion is, like recognize that emotion and step back and you may need to take some time, maybe come back to this later or the next day, but be like, be actually curious about, clearly they're passionate about something that is and lead with that.

[00:35:58] Instead of the anger being like, why is this so compelling to you? Tell me about it. Can you show me how to play? Can I play with you? All those kind of tools. Actually being interested in what they're interested in are a great way to lead with some connection and keep those lines of communication open.

[00:36:17] Alyssa: Okay. I love this because it involves us stepping out of our world to enter into theirs. Mm-hmm. And we see this shift, right? We start to see it around six, seven years old where there's that shift outside of the home in terms of identity. Not just who am I at home, but who am I in the world? Who am I in peer groups?

[00:36:36] Who am I at school? What do I like? What do I not like? What am I interested in? And as they are finding their identity, we so often will pull back into what's comfortable and what we know. And there's so much newness that comes up for us as the adult, right? Like, yeah, what is Dungeons and Dragons and like, how's this work?

[00:37:00] And like, no, I think this is dumb. Or whatever might be our initial like feeling or reaction. I think there's so much power in entering into their world and really wanting to know them. This is something that I think my husband is much better at than I am where he is so good in, in general, in relationship with humans of like really getting curious and finding out like, oh yeah, what lights you up?

[00:37:27] And just getting to know individuals and asking questions and going deeper and remembering those things. And I have like watched it play out and have experienced it where like he's asking me these questions and I get to share things that light me up and I leave that feeling so much more connected, so much more seen, so much more heard.

[00:37:50] And I think that's such a rad tool to bring in with kids and to remember that it's, we often ask them to join our world. We often ask them to step into our space to. Go to the school, we're asking you to go to, come to this thing, this family event, do X, Y, and Z, and to take that opportunity to step into theirs with curiosity.

[00:38:13] And for me, it involves the like truly non-judgment that I've gotta step into here. Really wanting to learn and connect with them and not like, how long can I talk about d and D before I am gonna go nuts? 

[00:38:27] Joanna: Gosh, Dungeons and Dragons has so many rules and loopholes and things that happened. Such a good example of things where you're, if you're not interested, you're like, I need to stop talking about this.

[00:38:38] I think something that keeps coming up is this idea of them wanting to help. For instance, when you're saying what's interesting to you about this? What is fun about this? Like, what are people doing? I'd like to understand, I, my friends don't understand. And they were asking me, what's the deal? And they wanna help you figure out what to do.

[00:38:57] So that. You can help others. They like doing that. They like being an assistant in that way, and, and that's an area where knowing that adolescents really like to be helpful, we can kind of seize on that and use that as an introduction to what they're interested in. I love the idea of modeling the question.

[00:39:17] My friends are asking me why their boys are so into Fortnite. Like, what is it that's so compelling about it? And let them help you understand it. I, I don't get it because I'm a 47-year-old woman, but like, I know so many of your friends love it. Like, give me the insight. What's the scoop? Knowing that they really like to help is another way to kind of direct them toward healthier outputs.

[00:39:40] I've realized that a lot of young men do wanna make the world a better place, and a lot of times they're lured into some of the stuff that's not so healthy because they think they're being helpful. For instance, a lot of times when we see sort of anti-woman sentiment rising up in schools. It's because the boys think that, let's just say for example, feminism is harming women and men and it's bad for kids.

[00:40:04] So there's usually some kind of positive or helpful angle that someone has fed them or that they've come up with on their own. And if you're facing a kid that seems to have some ideas that feel controversial or unhelpful, getting to the root of what they think is healthy and helpful about it can help you kind of dig into what's going on with them and maybe debunk it a little bit.

[00:40:29] Alyssa: It's such a challenging practice, I think, for all of us. We live in such a polarized society right now. Yeah. One of the, one of my self assignments that I took on this year was to connect with three humans who vote differently than I do, and to just get curious. And it is. So hard when you're faced with somebody where you're like, on the surface, this thing looks like a values difference.

[00:40:53] And to really get curious and notice our own biases. I love that assignment, Joanna, and it's, I think, really challenging to do in practice. You're like, wait, my boy is anti feminism or anti-feminist, and all these things are coming out. Like my initial reaction is like, what have I done? Right? 

[00:41:13] Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. And that was mine when I first started seeing some of those memes.

[00:41:16] I was like, yeah. And even when they, especially when I started hearing catch phrases, if you don't have a middle school son yet, you don't know that catchphrases are everything. They love a catchphrase. I started hearing some catchphrases that reminded me of when I was first writing on the internet and these really hateful anti-women guys would show up in my mentions.

[00:41:38] These were similar phrases and my reaction was. I'm gonna be honest with you. It was like terror. Sure. Like, oh my gosh, I've, these children are gonna be these horrible people. Luckily, my husband caught me kind of, even when I started to spiral, I caught myself and it was like, it's totally innocent to them.

[00:41:57] And if I had just jumped in and criticized and been negative and been like, how dare you? That's disgusting. It's so offensive. That would've been an opportunity for them to push away from me. And instead I tried to be like, where are you hearing this? And I was able to share with them, here's my experience with hearing people say, let's say the word beta, like a beta mail that's so beta.

[00:42:20] I had only heard that from these pretty, uh, relatively dangerous group of men. But all of a sudden it infiltrated social media in a way that was not great, but pretty benign comparatively. And I needed to let them teach me about it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, I take that, 

[00:42:38] Christopher: I think it's important to recognize that.

[00:42:40] Teens and tweens are often playing with ideas. They are not entrenched in like some ideology. They hear something, they may be repeat it without knowing its context or knowing its meaning, or they're playing, playing with ideas and saying, oh, I think this, but they're still pretty moldable. But no one's very rare that people change their ideas When someone comes down really hard on them and tells them how they're wrong and starts out with that way, I think you start changing someone's ideas or being in conversation with them by being open to hearing their experience, to hearing what does this mean to you?

[00:43:13] Can you even explain? Can you explain why that joke is funny and not being judgmental? That holding that nonjudgmental stance is really helpful and, 

[00:43:22] Joanna: and then we need to take that next step into empathy because it can't just be listening. It also needs to be guiding and helping them practice empathy. So I love Christopher said.

[00:43:31] Can you tell me why that joke is funny? That that statement is an amazing thing to use with anybody who says something that is. You see as harmful because people don't wanna explain why their racist joke, even if they meant it sarcastically is funny 'cause they realize how bad it sounds. So you, it's like, tell me why that joke is funny.

[00:43:50] And you'd be like, okay, I can see why. It's like you're saying something that's gonna like make everyone turn their head. But I wonder if I think about making that joke around somebody who is sort of gay. You know, gay and maybe not telling anyone a kid of color or a kid who's raising a single mom household, whatever the subject is.

[00:44:10] I wonder how that kid feels in that moment. Even if he knows you're joking. Like it just makes me think maybe he might feel like he doesn't trust you so much after that. Or he may feel like he's not really wanted in that group of friends and your kid is probably gonna go, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm sure not.

[00:44:27] Like he's cool, he's cool. Be like, okay. It's just, I was just imagining if that was. You know, planting a little seed. Yeah, just, yeah. Listen, it's just something that came to my mind, I thought, you know, you might wanna imagine that. And a big thing we talk about too is there's a big difference between a bad word and a harmful word.

[00:44:47] And that is something that parents don't talk about enough where they can say, you know, scatological swear words or the F word, and they hear parents say it, and then we say, no, no, no, don't say it. And then they hear words that are racist or bigoted or antisemitic or whatever. They hear them probably online, maybe from their friends who probably heard it online.

[00:45:09] And then we say, don't say that. But we don't explain the difference between saying that and saying a swear word. And so when they get in the locker room and they get with their friends, you'd be shocked by what you hear from kids, from really good families coming outta their mouths because they don't really make a distinction between a naughty word and a harmful word.

[00:45:27] And that. We have to be able to call them into that and have that conversation, which means you have to talk to them about words that you wish that you didn't have to ever hear or say again. But we have to do it. 

[00:45:37] Alyssa: I like that distinction, the bad word versus harmful. I think that's a helpful term here. All right.

[00:45:43] Before we wrap up, people are coming to this book, what's your like one hope that they're gonna leave it with? Because books are full of information and tons of stuff and it can feel overwhelming and so they're like, they're gonna walk away from this book with one thing. What's the one thing you're hoping they walk away with?

[00:45:59] Christopher: So I feel like a lot of boys are really wanting connection and wanting some guidance. And I also feel like a lot of adults know, oh yeah, I need to talk to them about porn or drugs or racism. These issues that are, are awkward and hard to talk about. And what I often hear from parents is, I know I need to talk about that.

[00:46:19] I haven't quite gotten around to it or we talked about it a little bit, but they don't. They never really went deep with it. And I think there is a great need for those deeper conversations as boys start to get older, as they start to move into adolescence and even into young adulthood, that we need to have ongoing conversations with them.

[00:46:39] So we have a book where we try to provide tools to help those conversations get started. That's what I really hope people grab onto is, you know, pick up the book and, and say, oh yeah, here's a topic that uh, you know, I haven't really ever talked about consent. 'cause it's a little confusing for me. I don't quite know what to say.

[00:46:56] It seems like so different than when I was a kid. So, take our book. We've got lots of examples that you can use and scripts that you can say, and you can modify them to fit with your family and your values. But we really want this book to be a tool to get some of those conversations started. 

[00:47:13] Joanna: We designed this book so that we really want you to read the first chapter, which is about communication.

[00:47:19] 'cause it's full of these handy little tricks and tips. And then you can just switch to whatever chapter is relevant to you. I mean, racism, we've got bullying, we've got pornography, substance use, education, everything you could ever want. And I don't know about other parents. I do not have time to read a book, cover to cover.

[00:47:37] That is not my life. So I just want you to pick it up. And ultimately, and the reason the book is called Talk to Your Boys, is we really wanna introduce the somehow revolutionary concept that we need to keep talking to our boys when they're teenagers. We can't let them disappear. Just talk to your boys. 

[00:47:58] Alyssa: I love it.

[00:47:59] Thank you so much folks. This book is out now. You can snag it wherever books are sold and we'll chat more about it in the breakdown as well. Thank you Joanna and Christopher for writing this, for having this much needed conversation. It doesn't just benefit boys, it benefits society as a whole, and I'm grateful, 

[00:48:18] Christopher: so wonderful to be here.

[00:48:19] Thank you so much. 

[00:48:20] Alyssa: Thank you. And thank you for the work you're doing. So important. Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown,

[00:48:33] planning out this book tour for big kids. And by the time this airs, it's probably like pretty close to underway and I, it's one of those where I'm like, I wanna do all of it if I didn't have kids. Mm-hmm. Especially young kids. I was just chatting, uh, with a friend of mine who was sharing, she's writing a book right now about teens and I'm super stoked for it because it's like we're overcomplicating this, like how to not be so stressed about teens and in and instead like enjoy it.

[00:49:08] And she was like, as I've been doing this research for this book and writing it, I've been reflecting on how I was kind of bored in the early years that managing the schedules and the food and the actual bathing of the human and the getting them dressed and buckling them in and all of those tasks was so much of what my brain was made up of.

[00:49:32] And I felt like it was hard for me to, even when there were down moments, like enjoy the hang time with my child because my head was so full of just like tasks. She was like, as I got older. There were fewer tasks like that I was doing for them and I just had more time in my schedule because they had sports or clubs or they were at school during the day or they wanted to go hang out with friends and not with us.

[00:50:00] She's like, there was just more time built in. And then I started to really enjoy my time with them where now we're like doing activities together and like going to a concert together or like going on a trip together. And it's actually fun and I'm not like, don't fall asleep in the car on the way there.

[00:50:18] Like we get to just like hang out and have fun together. And I was thinking about that 'cause I was like, yeah, it is so logistically challenging and, and she was talking about this, she's with her first book. They did a book tour and I was saying like, yeah, I like wanna say yes to all these opportunities and I just can't right now.

[00:50:38] I. There's a part of me that wants to, and then a larger, stronger, louder part of me that's like, yeah, you don't want to right now. Like you gotta be home a little bit. And she was like, oh my God. Yeah. I like, absolutely could not have done a book to her when they were that young. And she's like, but when they were older and she did the book tour, she had teens when she did her book tour, she was like, they like came with me on stops and we got to have like, oh, a fun trip to this city or whatever and they could sit and they were proud of their mom or like, see me on the news and be like, well that's so cool.

[00:51:16] You're like on the news and take it in in a different way. And I was like, yeah, we're just so not in that season. So as we're like planning this book tour, I'm like, I love in-person stuff with our community and I hate the juggle of like parenting young kids while traveling for work. Yeah, that duality, it's, yeah, honestly, logistically sucks for you.

[00:51:42] It sucks so hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. And I keep being like, it's a season, but then it turns out every season we keep publishing books. I know. It's like, 

[00:51:53] Rachel: and the thing is, is like, yes, it is a season, but when you feel like your choices are either gonna impact your work or your children, it's a long ass season.

[00:52:04] No winning of trying to balance that crap for literally years. You know? Years is a long 

[00:52:10] Alyssa: season. Years is a long season. I literally said to Kylie today, I was like, oh, you know what? I'm looking at this and just saying like, okay, end August to mid-November, I'm just gonna kind of be in and out. I'm gonna be traveling.

[00:52:24] Sometimes they can come with me for part of the trip or whatever, but largely I'm gonna be in and out. And then I was like, for December and January, I wanna commit to just like not traveling. Et cetera. I'm being home. And she was like, so okay, cool, cool, cool. I was just about to ask you, do you wanna go to this speaking engagement?

[00:52:42] You were just asked to go in January. Uh

[00:52:49] oh. Oh my god. Yeah. And she said, but no, yeah, you should for sure say no to this. For sure. I was like, oh my God. Every, you're right. It does, it feels like I have to choose like my work and business growth over family or vice versa. Like I Could it be an easier 

[00:53:06] Rachel: decision? I know, and I think at the end of the day you could say yes to all of the things and your kids would be okay, but I think you would grieve.

[00:53:19] Yeah. The time. Especially like beans, is that like your favorite age of all time? I love it. Like of course you don't wanna step away. No, I have thought about 

[00:53:27] Alyssa: like, okay, can I take her with me? And I'm like, one night in Seattle, two nights in la like beans. You ready for your West Coast tour baby? Legit for real.

[00:53:38] Um, yeah. Well, I mean like, kind of like with Europe, I was like, oh, when I was asked to speak on the like UNESCO panel as an expert in Paris, and I was like, a hundred percent and I'm bringing my daughter. Mm-hmm. And she's nine months old and she's gonna rip around Paris with someone else while I'm presenting at this thing, but I'm gonna do this.

[00:54:01] And now I'm like, how do I do that here? Yeah. I'm not bringing her. Kylie was like, you're insane. Like it's hard enough to be on a red eye. 8,000 times harder to be on a red eye with a one-year-old who then the next day you're gonna go present and she's in a weird place. Doesn't know, or she is, and has had no sleep.

[00:54:22] 'cause she was on a red eye. I was like, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're right. It would 

[00:54:27] Rachel: be better for her to just be away from you. Yeah. I hate that. I know. Hate it too. Hate it. Who are we chatting about today? Okay, this is Joanna and Christopher. Oh, I love them. Okay. This episode just really brought this issue to the forefront of my mind, just based on like Nora and Abel's ages right now.

[00:54:51] I have been heavily focused on like internet safety for her. 'cause she's the one who like wants to watch YouTube and whatever else, you know? Sure. So I'm like, alright, I gotta be like on this now. I'm like so grateful that I'm learning about this specific issue for boys before. Abel is at the age where he's like.

[00:55:11] Starting to like search things and have an algorithm shaped to target him, essentially. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? It's so wild. And then there's part of me, this is like the extreme part of me that's like, all right, well no more technology. Like no more internet, no or nothing, you know? Which like isn't the answer.

[00:55:32] It's not how this world operates so tempting. It's so tempting. 

[00:55:38] Alyssa: I loved learning about how the algorithm like shifts, not to necessarily show them like violent, harmful things, but I hadn't considered just the like messaging piece. Yeah. It's like insidious. They're just gonna, yes. Where it's just like, oh, they're just consuming these memes or whatever.

[00:56:00] And then this is a thing they believe to be true now because they've been marketed. Over and over and over in real 

[00:56:10] Rachel: casual ways. Yeah. One thing that stuck out to me was like that this messaging is kind of saying to them like, this is what men do like this. Some men move through the world. Mm-hmm. And they're getting this messaging often behind closed doors.

[00:56:23] Mm-hmm. On a screen where there's not an adult there to moderate or a man there to say like, actually no, that's not what we do. Yeah. And I think that is part of the issue, is that we are meant to create our worldview in community with others. And what's happening is a lot of tweens and teens are creating their worldview in isolation.

[00:56:49] And so, you know, as I was like, first I was like, no more internet ever. Then I was thinking like, really the answer here is to have a culture with our children of like. We're gonna have open communication about what's going on in our lives, on our screens, all of it. Without shame, you're not in trouble. But that, I think, and we talk about this in big kids so much, we're like at the root of so many challenges that we deal with with our kids is like, do they feel safe in relationship with us?

[00:57:25] To be vulnerable, to be honest. To say like, Hey, this is what I'm seeing and it doesn't feel right, 

[00:57:33] Alyssa: or it feels really good. Like there's a part of me that digs it, right? Like, yeah. Or that really believes this. Mm-hmm. And like that's even harder, I think, guy. 

[00:57:43] Rachel: Yeah. Like I've gotten sucked into 

[00:57:44] Alyssa: this. Yeah, yeah.

[00:57:47] Or like, I know that you believe this, but I believe this thing. Mm-hmm. And then I'm like, what did I do wrong? Where did I fail? How did I drop the ball so much? 

[00:57:55] Rachel: Well, and it was like when she went and looked through what her. Son had been searching and saw that it was like very innocuous, like how to do this level on Minecraft or whatever and that, and they're just like, oh, he's a boy.

[00:58:07] Let's give him this as well. Correct. And so I think also knowing that as parents, we can talk to our kids about that and say like, Hey, here is how this media is set up and if you see something like this, it doesn't say anything about your character. No. And I'm here to help you when that happens. 

[00:58:29] Alyssa: Yeah. In the same way that I haven't looked up a single thing about creatine or whatever and like, but you got pre perimenopausal woman.

[00:58:38] That's it. It's just like age where I am and I am hit with all these like perimenopausal stuff coming and of course 'cause they're like, yeah, let's market to you for you. 

[00:58:53] Rachel: Right. You're my target market. 

[00:58:55] Alyssa: That's right. Yeah, that's right. Uh, yeah. I, but I love the idea of just like teaching them about that and talking to them about that.

[00:59:04] Uh, and just the reality that we just need to keep talking to them even if they don't wanna talk, even if they shut down. I was thinking of Vanessa and Kara here, where they had talked, I don't know if it was on our podcast at one point or when I was on theirs, they were saying how their kids weren't like, yeah, can't wait for another convo with your mom Right.

[00:59:25] When it's this kind of stuff. They were like, we're gonna keep talking to you. I'm gonna keep talking to you even when it's uncomfortable because it's so important. Yeah. And I love you and I want you to know that it's so important on like a really cool note. Okay. You know, the, like Taylor Swift episode of New Heights mm-hmm.

[00:59:46] With TRA and Jason. 

[00:59:48] Rachel: Yes. 

[00:59:49] Alyssa: I think it's so dope. To have two men in the NFL who like could very easily be in like that toxic masculinity category here, show up on a podcast with Taylor Swift, where they're like celebrating girlhood and womanhood and are, uh, openly like, yeah, I, Travis was like, uh, yeah, I was sobbing with her when she found out she got her master's.

[01:00:21] And that's so rad. As a role model. Yeah. I'm not saying these humans are perfect when it comes to emotional regulation and like modeling what to do with hard feelings all the time. They're humans with a spotlight on them all the time. God, I wouldn't wish that on myself. And I think moments like that are so powerful for boys to be exposed to.

[01:00:45] Rachel: I think so too. I think this comes up for me a lot. With my sensitive boy. Mm-hmm. Um, because I never want him to feel like he can't be his full self and his full self cries a lot. 

[01:00:59] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:00] Rachel: And he is in a very mainstream school in terms of the gender culture in his classroom and the wider school. And so there's already pressure from his peers to like brush it off.

[01:01:20] Sure. Be a tough guy. You know, like that kinda stuff, which I hate makes my skin crawl. We were actually at like, this wasn't related to school. This is just like boy culture in general. We were at a birthday party, he was playing a game. He got hurt. And he started crying and there was an adult man there who doesn't know us that well.

[01:01:40] Um, and he was like, brush it off buddy. And I was like, oh yeah, he's not, he doesn't have to brush it off. He can cry. Um, actually hard. 

[01:01:46] Alyssa: No. Would you like a book? 

[01:01:48] Rachel: Like I was just, and like granted my capacity was a little low, I could have been a little bit like softer about how I, but I was just like, no, you're not gonna tell my kid that.

[01:01:57] You barely know. To brush it off, like, get outta here or, 

[01:02:01] Alyssa: that's where I often go into this is probably not shocking for anybody. Sarcastic snippy mode where I'm like, oh, are you uncomfortable with his hard feelings? Does that make you uncomfortable when he is crying? It's hard for you to be around it.

[01:02:12] Would you say it to a girl? No, because it's not uncomfortable because of what we've done culturally. That is also where when I look at like. As Sage gets older, I think part of the parts of other humans having a harder time with him is that he's still expressing his feelings and being vulnerable. And the generation before us is not used to, as boys get older, they still express their feelings outside of frustration and anger.

[01:02:46] Anger. Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. And so for him to say like, it hurts my feelings when you say that, or I feel left out when this happens. It's like they don't know what to do with it. 

[01:02:57] Rachel: I know. And I think like one thing that I think was helpful out of this episode was that like generational trauma where like in generations past, girls are generally praised or rewarded for being soft in that way.

[01:03:10] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:03:10] Rachel: And it wasn't that long ago that boys were being punished sometimes physically. Correct. As a result of saying something like, you hurt my feelings or crying about something. Um, so having that perspective, not to say that it's okay, I still was very annoyed when Boomer adult man told Abel to brush it off, but I, outside of the moment can access compassion for that because Totally.

[01:03:37] I'm sure that when that boomer man got hurt as a little boy, there was no space for him to cry and go snuggle his mom. Hundred percent. 

[01:03:44] Alyssa: Sometimes I have compassion for it, and sometimes I'm like, and now at some point you're responsible for doing the work to rewrite this script. Yeah. At some point as the adult, right, you get to decide, is this something I wanna pass on or not?

[01:04:02] Rachel: And I think too, we have to, like I was, as I was listening to this, I was thinking about Cody and. Cody and I have been together for 14 years and in that time we've moved from a space where he really couldn't talk about emotions to a space where we have like great open communication, but there are still so many like insidious or like subconscious ways where I think as women we send messaging that's like.

[01:04:31] Don't be too soft. Totally. Like I want a masculine man, so like be emotionally aware and available when I want you to be, but like, don't be too soft that it like gives me the ick. Right. And so I think there's that Yes. Objectify me a little bit. Right. And so I think like, and full circle, so I think, you know, as a mom there, it's like, I have this like multifaceted, just real, just quick.

[01:04:55] If you're new to this podcast, that is 

[01:04:58] Alyssa: a 

[01:04:59] Rachel: little 

[01:04:59] Alyssa: callback from a, from a previous breakdown, you're like, how does that fit in here? Yeah. But like, sorry. 

[01:05:07] Rachel: No, but that's exactly what I mean. Like I think as I was listening to this and I was thinking about the men that I'm in a relationship with, I was thinking about my dad, I was thinking about my husband.

[01:05:16] Mm-hmm. Thinking about my son. Mm-hmm. And my goal is that A, that my son doesn't grow up to be a grown man who tells little boys to brush it off when they Sure. I want my son to grow up to be a man who like opens his arms to the crying boy and says like, come on over buddy. You know? Yeah. That kind of thing.

[01:05:35] And for my relationship with my husband, I want to make sure that the messages I am intentionally and unintentionally are sending is like you get to be vulnerable in this relationship. 

[01:05:49] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:50] Rachel: And I'm still attracted to you. Correct. I still think that you are a wonderful, sexy, masculine man. 

[01:05:57] Alyssa: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:58] Rachel: And you get to be soft.

[01:06:01] Alyssa: Yeah. And that like, we need, you know, she mentioned that in this episode, the, like sharing about her husband to her kids and the moment of like him taking care of, I think it was her mother Yes. Where you like put his hand on her foot. Yes. Yeah. And like how we need to share more of those that I was just reading, obviously one of my like s Muddy romance books and like, there's obviously just relationship happening, but what I think every female reading this book is tuning into is the way that he, he also like, takes care of her grandmother and like drives her to this ere night and is like stepping into like help her, like she is off, like working or doing things and he, she shows back up and like his car is there, she's like, what is happening?

[01:06:51] And he's like helping her grandma with something. Mm-hmm. And. That is so hot. Right? And so like being able to like communicate that as girls and women, that that's what we're attracted to. 

[01:07:07] Rachel: Totally. And making that the norm in our culture as women so that our young boys who are growing up, who are trying to figure out how do I show up in partnership with somebody?

[01:07:19] What do they want from me? Like I think about in the early days with Cody, we went to visit his sister and his nephew was two and his niece was four and he was changing his nephew's diaper. He was soothing them when they cried. He's very warm, soft, playful, open with children. And I saw that and I was like, this is what I want in a ma'am.

[01:07:39] Like this is important to me. You know? And it's often thought of as women's work still the that caretaking right. 

[01:07:47] Alyssa: A hundred percent. Yeah. Actually, Ellen's son Ellen, who's on our team, her son is a NICU nurse and at one point I had a friend over and he was like here and Ellen was here and we were hanging and he was in a relationship but his partner wasn't at the house.

[01:08:04] This was years ago. And when he left, my friend was like, is there anything hotter than watching that man with these kids? Like he was just like playing with the kids and like the same it like it was picture day. Ellen had a family childcare program and it was picture day and he like stepped in and changed a kid's diaper while kids were getting pictures and just, I mean, he's grew up with a mom who ran a family childcare program, so he came home to kids every single day.

[01:08:28] Mm-hmm. He's a NICU nurse and she was like, is there literally anything hotter than what I just witnessed? And I was like, yeah. That is what we as women, I think, often say to each other. Yeah. But we don't say it to them or we don't say it out loud enough. Where they're around and can hear it. 

[01:08:47] Rachel: Or we encourage little boys not to play with dolls and it's like a 

[01:08:50] Alyssa: hundred 

[01:08:51] Rachel: percent like, okay, so he can't play with a doll.

[01:08:54] What's gonna happen when he has a baby? It's like, yeah, I remember plan there. I was working as a doula and I was supporting a family postpartum, and the dad had never changed a diaper until his own kid, and I changed my first diaper when I was four years old. 

[01:09:07] Alyssa: Same, yeah, maybe younger because my mom had kids at home, but every picture of me, my little brother was born when I was five, and every picture of me from the time he was born, I'm like carrying him around.

[01:09:18] I'm doing all the things my mom said. I used to call him my baby. My mom also ran a family childcare program at home, so I also came home to kids all the time. They were just in my world and in my space, and my brothers grew up with that and they are phenomenal with kids and phenomenal dads and uncles. I show up with a baby and they're fighting over like, who gets to hold the baby and snuggle them?

[01:09:42] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just this past summer when we were at my parents' house altogether at one point sji, we had been playing like water and he was like shivering. And my brother went over and just wrapped him up in a towel and picked him up and snuggled him in a chair. And like that's all so natural for them.

[01:10:01] Yeah. Because they grew up doing it. Mm-hmm. And no one was like, oh, you're a boy, actually don't change that diaper. Right. Or my mom wasn't like, oh, since you're a boy, please don't help with your siblings with these things. Like, that's insane. Right? Correct. Yeah. Yeah. It makes a difference. The messaging is constant.

[01:10:23] And so being mindful of like, what are we communicating and what are they exposed to? Yeah, so huge, so stoked for this book, uh, to be out in the world. Talk to your boys. Oh man, we need this. We need this as a culture shift, not just for boys and men, but also for women. This is huge for us culturally across the board.

[01:10:47] Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voices of your village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at seed dot and dot. So SEW take a screenshot of you tuning in. Share it on the gram and tag seed.

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