The Invisible Load of In-Law Dynamics that No One Talks About, with Dr. Tracy Dalgleish

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

Alyssa: [00:00:00] You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and today I'm joined by my incredible friend Dr. Tracy. She is a clinical psychologist, couples therapist, and author of the new book, You, Your Husband and His Mother. This was such a fun conversation. We got honest and had just compassionate conversation about what it looks like to show up as both a partner and a parent, while also navigating those tricky extended family dynamics. We dug into the challenges so many of us face with in-laws, with our own parents, and how setting boundaries can actually create more connection, not less. We talked about the pressure to be everything to everyone, and how tuning in to your own needs and voice is a game changer for your relationship, your parenting, and your peace. I loved getting to connect with Tracy, not just as a professional, but as two humans sharing this season of life. All right, folks, let's dive in.

Alyssa: [00:01:04] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the collaborative emotion processing method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.

Alyssa: [00:01:26] The last time that we hung out and got to chat about our books because we're on a very similar book publishing timeline the last time we chatted, I remember I was at my mom's house and I was traveling for work, and my son was there, and we had a nanny at the time, and she had traveled with us, and I was very pregnant with my daughter.And I just remember having so much stress internally about like, where's the best room in this like very old house where everything's echoey and like, is my internet gonna work and all that? And then later being like, I wish I'd been more present for those conversations. I feel like a little bit my stress came in the way, so I'm stoked. I feel like I get a redo today where I get to hang out again. I love that.

Dr.Tracy: [00:02:18] Well, I remember you being present with me. Oh, I remember having a good conversation with you, and I loved being able to share our journeys with both of our communities about the book piece, but also just us as humans and parents. And I just appreciate everything that you're bringing to the world. So thank you for for me, to you, for inviting me into your space again. It's a gift. That's so sweet. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Pleasure and how things have changed, too, in the past few years, right? I mean, that was two years, almost to the date two years ago. Yeah. And here we are, just pumping out books. Crazy. Here we go. Can I press pause? No. I was it was like weeks after Tiny Humans published when we got so many messages from people that were like, okay, but what do I do with my nine year old? You know, like, what's that look like? And I was days postpartum when I signed my book contract for Big kids.

Alyssa: [00:03:13] And in my head, I was like, that's future Alyssa's problem. Like, she'll write this out of maternity leave. I'm just going to settle into this baby. And then here we are. Future Alyssa's ear.

Dr.Tracy: [00:03:24] The book was ready to be written. I think that about both of my books that they especially this one, this one came out really fast. It was just ready. And I know Elizabeth Gilbert talks about this in Big magic, how it's like, you know, the universe is showing you something and it's presenting it like, who's going to bring it down? And it's like, that's cool. You had that message right there. Oh, she's. Yeah, but you had it right there in front of you is it's like, well, what about my big kids? And you're like, okay. Yeah, I'm pulling it as it was like, we have to write this. There is a gap in the market and parents needed resources, teachers needed resources. But I am obsessed with this book title of yours. It's so good. You, your husband and his mother. It's just slays. I feel so grateful in that I actually, on our first date, we were in New York City and the hotel on Main Street or Jane Street Hotel or something like that.

Alyssa: [00:04:25] And I can remember sitting at the bar with Zach and I have four brothers, and he said he was an only child. And I was like, oh, I don't date only children. Like you won't understand any of this. And also your parents are just going to be way too involved in your life. It turns out I only marry only children because here we are. But I feel so grateful because I have a couple of kick ass mothers in law. In fact, three of them are just delightful, amazing. And every relationship comes with its stuff.

Dr.Tracy: [00:05:01] Oh, and isn't that just the truth? Whether we're looking at our marriage, whether we're looking at what we experience with our kids, and also with extended family, I know a lot of people have said, is this book for me and my mom? Could we read it because my mom's the thorn in the in our couple relationship? And my answer is, I've written this so that you can have the tools and steps to walk through with any extended family member, because it really is so difficult to feel like a united front as a couple. And the book, of course, is based on this very specific dynamic, because this tends to be the most problematic. But the steps I walk you through are going to support so many people.

Alyssa: [00:05:42] I love it, I love it, and we need it. Being in relationship with humans is hard. Like it's just hard to be in relationship with people, and I am a mom to two tiny humans who eventually will be grown humans, Lord willing, and maybe find partners. And there's a chance I'm somebody's mother in law someday. Yes. And I think of that in my relationship with my in-laws. Like, what would I want for my son? What do I want to get to have with my daughter or my son when they're older, when their parents, when they're grown? And what does that look like now for me to allow to have happen when I'm not the mother in law and I believe the foundations you're teaching parents in the book are exactly what they what you need and what your children need. Because I know within your books you're teaching frameworks around emotions and how all emotions are okay. Who's responsible for emotions? How we create. And I'll use the therapy words here. Individuation. How we create differentiation. This idea that I'm going to sit with my kid, my big kid now and say, you're allowed to feel that and I'm experiencing something different. And that right there is teaching my kids to tolerate that we're different. And that peace is where so many people struggle in the mother in law daughter in law dynamic. And I especially see it today compared to 30 years ago because parents 30 years ago will tell me we just did what our parents did.

Dr.Tracy: [00:07:33] We got in the car in the middle of the snowstorm, and you had to be there on Christmas dinner. So we drove eight hours across the province to be there or across state to be there for Christmas dinner, because that's just what you did. Sure. And today, daughters in law, partners, families, the ones that were choosing and creating were saying, that doesn't work for us anymore. And even parenting styles, how we deal with mental load. All of that comes to a head where there's this tension between we are choosing to do it differently, and it doesn't mean that what you did was bad. But can both parties hold that? And a lot of people can't because difference is often viewed as a threat. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Difference is viewed as a threat. And what role do I serve in this person's life? Like I think of how right now I'm my children's person. I'm the person they turn to with their hard stuff and like it is a true gift. Sometimes it's really annoying and overwhelming and hard. And it's largely a gift. I'm their person. And the idea that one day they will have a person who knows parts of them or knows them in different ways, or who they turn to and share all their hard stuff with that isn't me feels threatening.

Dr.Tracy: [00:09:04] And right here in these early years, we can't imagine it. And I want listeners to remember that this doesn't happen overnight. It's an evolution. We see it in the small ways, I think of my ten year old, my oldest turned ten this year. It's just, you know, every year feels like a whole new ball game. And it's amazing and beautiful. And there's these, like, really sweet cuddles and then this really deep sense of autonomy and separation from me. It didn't happen overnight. Yeah. But this even a small example of him saying, you know, mom, I know I said I wanted to watch a movie with you tonight, but my buddy up the street wants to ride bikes. Can we. Can I go and do that? And of course. And. Right. And there's always this balance in here too, which is like where do we hold the we're doing this as a family. We've made this commitment. And where do I hold this flexibility. And one of the biggest struggles I hear from couples right now around dealing with extended family is that loss of flexibility and the desire for control, even if it's not malicious or it's not intended to be controlling and rigid, it comes out as rigidity. What do you mean? You're not coming for Christmas dinner? What do you mean you're not coming for the High Holidays? Like, this is what we do. And yet there's a change, and that's hard.

Alyssa: [00:10:29] Yes, and it's a threat to all the. Well, if this is changing, what else is changing, right? And, like, what is this going to mean? What does this mean for our relationship? If you're not a part of this, what else is going to happen? Oh Yes, I also frankly think change is hard and I don't love it. And it is a part of being in partnership in the way that at least we choose to do it in our household. Was that my whole family? I have four brothers and they've got partners and I've got nieces and nephews and all that jazz. We're not all together in the way that we were growing up, and that we were for a long time. Yes, because people go to partners, households and all that jazz, and it's a reconfiguration of it. And I think my parents have done a beautiful job of I've at least never experienced guilt for not going home for Christmas or Thanksgiving or whatever these holidays were. Generally, we were all together and we grew up five houses down from my mom's parents and about four hours from my dad's dad. His mom died when he was young and we did everything with my grandparents down the road, right? And I've never experienced guilt from my parents around that of like, oh, we're not going to be home for Christmas. We're going to stay in Vermont and do it with the family.

Alyssa: [00:11:56] That, to be honest, we live in Vermont and see these grandparents all the time, and we're going to stay and do Christmas here with them on Christmas morning, or we're not coming for Thanksgiving or whatever it is. I know it probably is hard for them and that they feel sadness, and I feel grateful that I've never experienced guilt around that from them, which would tell me that your relationship as a family doesn't hinge on these holidays, when family places all of the pressure on these holidays, and that's the only way they connect. Some people talk about the Facebook grandma, who just wants the picture to put on Facebook to show everybody and to say, look at our happy family. But then grandma lives in, you know, 20 minutes down the street and never goes over to see the kids. It's not part of the day to day, right. But when there's pressure on the relationship to perform as a family at these infrequent moments, that's when there's this tension. That's when people don't want the difference. But instead, if we can see a family bond as happening in Micro-moments throughout time, then we don't feel so much pressure to get together on holidays. We know, like, oh, right. It makes sense that you're not coming right now. It's a lot of holidays to travel and it's expensive. And the kids and the kids want to be at their own place and we get it.

Dr.Tracy: [00:13:19] And we also loved how we got to have that weekend with you back in November or October and etc. but the guilt trips are really damaging, and often they're damaging for the couple because one partner, often the daughter in law, is so aware of it. And her husband doesn't see it.

Alyssa: [00:13:40] Sure, sure. Yeah. Oh, it's so true. And I think part of it with my family is also there's an allergy to talking about emotions. And so they wouldn't ever be like, oh, I feel sad that you're not here because they've never said the words. I feel sad in their life. And so I think that's honestly part of it at play. But then they don't do the like because I think even outside of the emotion language, there's still guilt trippy things like, oh, we're going to be all by ourselves at Christmas or things like that, or we don't get any of that, which I'm super grateful for. I also think that part of the things at play here and tell me if there's more to this, I. I'm such an auditory processor that I'm going to do this with you in real time. The grandparent wanting to experience, I'm going to take Christmas again as an example of, say, we're not going to be in Vermont for Christmas. And if my mother in law wasn't going to get to experience my children's Christmas morning joy and excitement and all that jazz, and she does everyday life with us.

Alyssa: [00:14:53] They live a mile down the road. We do Nana Fridays. She does childcare on Fridays. All winter long. We do Sunday dinners like they're very much baked in to our lives. And I think part of it is her feeling sadness potentially, that she wouldn't get to experience that Christmas morning joy when her favorite thing in the whole wide world that she's ever done was be a mom, and she has an only child, and she got to do it once, like all the way through those early years and fully loved it. And she relishes in the ability to get to experience now her grandkids joy and childhood. And so I think part of it is that sadness of like I don't feel guilt from her when we are like going to my parents or anything like that either. And I know that she'll feel sad when we're not here on Christmas morning. 

Dr.Tracy: [00:15:57] And all feelings are okay. And I know you know that I know you, but I hate it. But I hate it. But we watch our child feel sad. And we don't like it. Right. And isn't that a way of demonstrating attachment bonds and who we care about and who we respect and value. It speaks to our values and what matters to us. Like, that's a really lovely thing.

Alyssa: [00:16:21] And there are times where we have to say, I know this isn't what we both want, and we have to make this decision this year to do it in another way. And a lot of what couples struggle with around setting healthy boundaries with their families is around sitting in that discomfort. Mom's upset. Yes. I hate sitting in the discomfort. Yeah I know. Okay, I do too. I'm a therapist, and like, I can you get paid to sit in the discomfort still sucks. My heart rate monitor is even. It's, like, so low during my eight hours of clinic days when I'm with clients, processing all of the things, and then I go home and I have to sit in the discomfort of my daughter crying because they didn't get to get the big box of fruit roll ups at Costco the other day. And it's like heart rate through the roof, right? I know that. I know. Obsessed. I feel like one thing just came up for me there that, like, discomfort piece. I think the thing that I've had the hardest time with is I, my mom and my mother in law were both stay at home moms Mom's and my mom worked weekends. She waitressed on nights and weekends. We grew up in a low income household and so she worked her butt off to help provide for the family. But she we didn't go to childcare and she was home after school when we got home.

Dr.Tracy: [00:17:49] And I have heard so many comments from both my side and my in-laws side about how like, oh, it's such a sweet time and they wouldn't have given it up for the world. And yet, and I'm a working parent and a working mom, and never once has my husband going to work been called into question. Or I've heard comments like, oh, do you think that Mila is having a hard time separating from you in this stage because you travel for work? At which point I've started saying things like, do you? Is that what's coming up for you here? Yeah. They're not your feelings. Yeah. They're not yours. They're based in their experiences and the choices that they made. Yes. And that's those are the times being a working parent with mother in law and mom who were stay at home moms in those early years. That's where I feel like it has been the hardest for my relationship with both of them. And I think you're bringing up something important here. If I even kind of zoom out in the sense that your relationship, you know that when they say those things, I think anyways, because you start out by saying you have positive, strong bonds with these women and so grateful to have them in your life. And I think because that's a foundation you hold when these comments come in, they don't go right into the core of you.

Alyssa: [00:19:23] Instead, you kind of put up that wall or the glass or you close the fence and you're like, is this about you? It's not about me. I think the sassy, sarcastic fight mode Alyssa comes out and I'm like, is this about you? But when the dust settles, my internal voice is like, no, is this about me? Like, am I making the right choice? Am I spending enough time with my kids? They wouldn't have given it up for the world. Am I doing the wrong thing by giving up time with my kids in these early years to work, right? Like those things? Yeah. In the moment when I'm in my, like, defensive stance, I can turn it around and project that back and put it back on them. Yeah. Yes. But when the dust settles and I start to regulate and sit with those thoughts, that's where it becomes about me, for me. You have to filter through that in some way. And it is tricky though, because of course, people come with well-intentioned thoughts, totally or well-intentioned concerns. And I also know from the many people I've worked with, the thousands of couples that there are some mothers in law or moms that come in with some malicious, not so nice intentions behind their words. And there's almost two pieces that I hear you doing. It's one. How is this in terms of our bond? Does this affect our bond? Or can I say, oh yeah, that's just what mom says.

Alyssa: [00:20:57] Oh yeah. That's just what my mother in law says. And it's not about me. And she's not judging me. This is just what she's doing. But then the other piece is having to filter it through, which is the awareness and the reflection. What do I do with this? Am I okay to acknowledge that the way I'm choosing to live my life authentically, and how I'm choosing to be in my family authentically? Is that okay? Because it's going to look different from what past generations, what other families are doing. I think this is the constant Achilles heel that we as parents experience looking outwards. What is it that everybody else is doing? How do we measure up against it? What do we want to do with all of that 100%? And then you add social media to it and it just amplifies, right? It's like now I can look outward and I'm not just looking at my neighbor or what my mom did, but now I'm looking at what millions of humans are doing. Yes, yes, what a doozy. I think one of the most powerful things that I want to empower daughters in law to be able to do is to find their voice. Because I think what often the binary that I end up seeing is women fall into the victim. Everything is happening to them.

Dr.Tracy: [00:22:17] The mother in law says all the things the mother in law says. I don't think they like to sleep that way. You shouldn't be doing that. Still breastfeeding? Are you going back to work already? It's the right. And so. Or it's the. I have to pack up all the kids in the snowstorm, drive the five hours, go to that house for the night and sleep in these uncomfortable conditions. And, you know, my mental health is on the line and I'm not doing well. And all the things that's the victim that we fall into or we fall into the villain role, which is we have boundaries. We want things to be a certain way, but we're blamed. We're the scapegoats. We're the bad guys and the family. But the goal of the book is really to get you a seat at the table so you can find your voice, and you can feel good in the marriage that you're building and the relationship you're building with your mother in law. An example of what that looks like. Like what does it look like in practice to find your voice? And I'm assuming kind of like self-advocacy or healthy conflict as a part of that. My in-laws were so well intentioned with the commentary that came out early on, and it was with their first grandson. It was the first grandchild in the province, and there was a lot of commentary.

Dr.Tracy: [00:23:30] And my part in that was, I am a good girl, daughter in law. I talk about three types of daughters in law in the book, and I'm the good girl. I used to think I had great boundaries. I did not have good boundaries, I just wavered. I said yes to everything. I grew silently resentful. And I think this was about five months postpartum. I was not doing well, but on the outside, nobody really knew. I didn't speak up. I don't even think even though I work with mothers postpartum for myself, I didn't see it for myself until I was out of it. I was struggling with anxiety. I was struggling with breastfeeding. I was struggling with sleeping. We were trying to find our footing in our marriage. We're here in Ottawa. We don't have any support. And so then when we do see family, all of these comments came in. Now, early on with my parents, I could easily say, not helpful, mom, I don't need that kind of commentary. Just, like, rub my back. Tell me. Tell me your baby girl is doing a good job. I can do that with my mom. But then you bring in the dynamic with someone else's mother, and you're trying to walk this line of what does this look like? And does my partner? Does my husband even hear these kinds of comments? And how does that land for him? Or does he just avoid and shut down and do the things that, you know, he's always done in the family? And so I remember specifically at five months saying to my in-laws, I know you're well intentioned and we are bombarded with advice at this day and age.

Dr.Tracy: [00:24:56] There's the internet, there's these groups. Everybody has a commentary about what choices I am making. We do not need this from you. We just need you to tell us that we're doing a good job. And they never gave advice again. And it was this really empowering moment that I had to step into what do I need to feel good in this space? Because my values and I teach this in the book I teach couples. How do you identify what's really important to you? You have to know what your values are because it doesn't work. If I say, we're cutting off your family and your partner is saying, I want to have family dinner every Sunday night, totally. So what's the value? And then what's the actual goal in your family? So that's one piece. But our our values were to be connected with family. And you have to tune into how do I then want to exist in this space. So we can all feel good? And I should also add, that doesn't mean that they are necessarily happy that I said that. It might have been hard to hear that, and we're still connected with them and they never gave advice again.

Alyssa: [00:26:02] And so you kind of have to want to like, throw up. The whole time you were saying it, were you just like, absolutely. Yeah. Okay, great. Oh yeah. No, I'm not immune to that. Perfect. Great. Yeah. Love. I think we should just, like, set that right here. Like, I'm not immune to the like. Oh, my gosh, this is so hard. I don't want to do this. This is so uncomfortable. I just want people to like me and to, you know, I want to be the good daughter in law and all those things. I'm so human in that. And then also to, like, turn to my husband. And I'm the blamer in our cycle. I can get angry. He shuts down and gets defensive, and then just away we go. Right? But a human a lot longer than a therapist.

Alyssa: [00:26:43] Yeah. Love that last note. I, I try to like, channel Brené in these moments where, you know, she says it's like, what, 17 seconds of discomfort to trade for actually being in relationship with this human. And I remember her telling a story at one point. Brene Brown, obviously, I should say her last name. We're not on a first name basis. We've never met. I feel like I know her, but it's the parasocial relationship. Yeah. Dreams. But I remember telling the story at one point about being in a massage and they said, like, how is this? And she was like, actually, can you do this like harder, harder or softer there or whatever? Some oh, somebody was talking to her like the massage therapist was talking to her.

Alyssa: [00:27:28] And she was like, you know what? This is a time for me to just kind of zone out. Can we not talk during this? And I was like, I would spend the first 45 minutes of the massage trying to work myself up to saying that and then maybe say it. And then the last 15 minutes of the massage, like sweating, thinking, do they hate me now? And I think she's such a fierce leader in what that looks like, to set these boundaries and wade into that discomfort, knowing that in the end, then you get to actually be in relationship with this human rather than holding those resentments or bottling it up. And oh, but it's that discomfort, so real. One thing that I'm wondering if you've noticed, I've just noticed it kind of in personal relationships and anecdotally that I wonder if it's in fear of having these types of conversations, or maybe a lack of skill set or ability to have these conversations and be in the discomfort. People just cut each other off where there's just this, we're not going to go to the family holiday. And instead of saying, hey, it has been a season and we're exhausted, and the eight hour round trip drive for two days in a sea of logistics right now feels way too hard for us to take on.

Alyssa: [00:28:52] We would love to see you, and that just feels like too much right now. Instead of saying that, we're just like, we're not coming for Christmas. And then there's the feelings on both sides, whether they're disgust or not. Curious about your thoughts on this of like, have you noticed this? Almost like people have started to hear the word boundaries for the first time in their life as adults and learn about them and what it looks like to take care of yourself, especially the humans who have been the people pleasers. The good girl. And now they're like, wait, I matter. I can advocate for myself, but are kind of like little toddlers learning to advocate for themselves. Oh, yeah. Does that make sense?

Dr.Tracy: [00:29:35] Yeah. Oh, absolutely. So we have moved so far away from what boundaries actually mean, and we have used the pop psychology language to further support our hyper independence. And I think you and I talked about this in the other in the episode we did before together. And it's this those are your feelings, not mine. And we lose the relational piece, which is how do we co-create? How do we make space for the end? How do we see both sides without trying to convince the other person who is right and wrong? Right.

Dr.Tracy: [00:30:08] And that is incredibly uncomfortable for people. And so then people will say and I differentiate this in the book and I have a whole the whole chapter. The fourth step is limits and boundaries because we can't do this work without having them. So there is a fundamental difference between how people are setting boundaries today. And a lot of people are making requests. They're saying, I don't want you to ask me about my sleep choices. I don't want you to give candy to the kids instead. And we can make those requests. But it's really up to the other person whether they're going to do them or not. And someone who is respectful can then say help me understand what are the reasons behind this. And I'd like to know more about that because I'm curious about you not to know more, to weaponize it against you, but because I want to know you say my daughter in law, but we don't do that. And so we make these requests and then other people can respond to them or not. But we forget what the boundaries are, and boundaries are about what I am willing or not willing to do. And that would be when you ask about sleep. I'm not willing to enter into that conversation with you, and you don't necessarily say this out loud to them, but you change the topic. I will be changing the topic every time.

Dr.Tracy: [00:31:23] I remember one client with a family member who used them almost like a therapist, having to say, I'm not your therapist. And when you start talking about your relationship with dad, I am not going to be present for that. And I'm going to end our phone call. And that's a boundary. That's what I'm going to do. That's what you can expect from me. Right. Here's what you can expect from me. And the challenge then is we get so frustrated because other people aren't doing what we want them to do, and then we cut them off. And when we set boundaries, we forget the humanness and the compassionate piece that we need to hold, which is your mother in law, your mom, whoever it is at their core, they just want to know that they're important. You just want to know that you know, you think of them and that they get to be in your life. And that reassurance goes a long way. Of course, we love spending time with you. We would love to be there for Christmas if there weren't so many obstacles to get there. And let's make sure we schedule time together. That works for both of us because our kids love seeing you. You're part of our family. It's important to us. And just for people listening, even for yourself, let that sink into you. Imagine someone came and said that to you. You just feel so soothed that you still have a role that you still matter to this family.

Dr.Tracy: [00:32:47] And then the next piece is communicating what you're going to be doing next. And I think this cutting off process does come from a sense of helplessness. Frustration. And I have received some not so great DMs. Not many. I think more will come out as time goes on, because people think what I advocate when I talk about boundaries. There was this one reel I did where perhaps a decision. I can't remember the exact wording, but it's about choosing whether to have healthy people in your kids life, and that's why you're setting boundaries. And people thought I wasn't implying cutting out. And it wasn't. It just means instead of going to your house where you're both smoking in the living room, and that doesn't work for my kids, we're going to go meet at the restaurant where you can't smoke in. That's a boundary. Instead of sending the kids for a week to Grandma and Grandpa's because that's not a good environment, we're going to drive by and see you for a few hours and then continue on. It's not about having to cut out. It's about creating the relationship that's going to work for you. But that the dance we're doing right here is talking. We have to label this because at the the crux of this, the problem is when your husband doesn't see the problem and then your husband ends up saying things like, you're too sensitive.

Dr.Tracy: [00:34:18] It's just my mom. It's not a big deal. Why are you making a big deal out of this? And it's just this defensiveness, dismissiveness, and deflection towards you that crumbles and breaks intimacy and connection between partners. 

Alyssa: [00:34:34] 100%. I have a phenomenal in-laws love. They're divorced and both remarried, and I have a distinct memory. So early in our relationship, we were 23, 24, something like that, living in Boston. And Zach, my husband, was my boyfriend at the time, driving his dad's next to him and I'm in the back seat Backseat, and his dad made a joke that I thought was inappropriate, and I just said, oh, I don't think that's funny. Can you please not make that joke around me? That's not funny for me. And it was just like full, awkward silence. I've in my life almost never been the good girl and kind of the opposite. And pushed every boundary that's ever come in front of me. I will open my mouth before my brain is really ready for me to open my mouth. But I said this. And then later, when we were home, my husband said something to me where he was just like, it's just how my dad is. Like, it's not a big deal. And I was like, oh, I'm never gonna not say something. So just so you know about me, if I feel uncomfortable or I think it's inappropriate, I'm gonna name that.

Alyssa: [00:35:50] Yeah. And he was like, okay. Are. Like, the wheels are spinning of like, so do we not do car rides anymore for the rest of my life? Like, is this what I'm signing up for? And it's continued to be true. And he, of course, as we all do, had learned how to be in relationship with his parents to have the least friction and conflict and the most harmony. And I was ruffling those feathers. Potentially, I was showing up in a different way where he's like, no, no, no, I've learned what to do with these humans, how to keep anxiety at bay, how to keep harmony in place, how to make sure no one has a big reaction. He would be a keeper.

Dr.Tracy: [00:36:40] Oh, he's a peacekeeper. And even more. But let's just label, though, that children do become masters of how to navigate their parents. And you know this better than I do with your work, because children are motivated by connection. And so if I know that I feel as a child, connected to my parent, when I don't say what I need and want, then I don't share what I need and want. And that doesn't just stop when he turns 15. Oh no, it goes on. Yeah. 2430, 37 when he's in my office for the first time, because it's the biggest rupture in their relationship by not standing up for his partner because it's like, no, no, we don't express needs, right? We don't do that.

Dr.Tracy: [00:37:24] That's just mom. That's I'm very much over generalizing, but it's the pattern that I kept seeing. And and also too, because I didn't have this book. This book is the first book to be written for daughters in law with this specific dynamic, because it is so common. Well, and I think also for in hetero relationships, these men to read this book to see, hey, this is what's coming up for my partner as well. Yes. And like what a cool book club read for them together like a joint read. For all of us to read with our partners. I recognize that it is. Any time you're adding another human into a relationship, it shifts dynamics, right? And so I'm wondering if you have any, like, hot tips for what does this look like in terms of really figuring out, like, who are you? You said there's those different like, daughter in law profiles where you were like the good girl. And I'm like, yeah, it's not me. What are the other ones? And then who is your mother in law? Or who is this in-law? So that you can really figure out how do we move forward? Yes. Chapter six. The second step is about aspirations. And so it's really about going from values onto the ground level. The one couple I share in the book is this couple who both valued family but then didn't know it meant every Sunday night they'd be at the in-laws house for espressos and biscuits and patisseries at 7 p.m.

Dr.Tracy: [00:38:57] every Sunday night, and especially once the kids came in. But I think there there's this willingness. So in the book, people will go through six different profiles of mothers in law. These are not diagnoses. These are patterns of behavior that go together. And then they'll also be taken through the three types of or three styles of daughters in law. And I walk you through in the second chapter the dynamics that already exist in the family. I think one of the most powerful things for anyone to recognize is there was a dynamic at play before you joined the family. That's what I'm saying. Like, then I pop in and it's like, ooh, you did. We already had a thing. Yes. And you were not going to be the one to just allow the thing to keep going, because then you would have been constantly uncomfortable and over time grown resentful and angry. And that, that didn't work for you. No. Yeah. No. And then the other piece I challenge both partners is to look at your own baggage. We bring our own stuff in and then we play these roles. And so I talk about the different inner child's that often show up. We've got and you've already mentioned the peacekeeper The Golden Child, the rebellion.

Dr.Tracy: [00:40:10] They're all in there and it's rebellion coming in hot over here. It's just this it's a lot of work. And also, too, when you do it, you can feel better with your partner. And that's why I broke this down into these five steps. I call it the vault method. This idea that the vault is this, like solid unit, that it's you and your partner and nothing is permeating your relationship. You're this strong unit because then when you feel good together, you're more resilient and parenting, you're more resilient to the work stress. You feel better together, and you can set those boundaries in a much better way. So where would I leave people to kind of think about this? I think the first thing is to really we don't want to come in so hot and blame the other family. You have to understand that your partner is always going to defend their own family, because they have to protect them and protect their own memories. That's that's who raised them. And so it is part of being able to recognize patterns and also at the same time validating your own experience. Because I think if our partners aren't ready to validate us, we then push harder to try to get validated. So then we need to sink into nope. My experience is real. This is uncomfortable. I don't like this.

Alyssa: [00:41:33] This isn't how I want to do it. And just starting with that piece there. I love that. I hope that people can think about what would I want if I'm them, right? A If I down the road, I'm the mother in law and somebody comes in and now has a new relationship and it shifts our family dynamic, what would I want here? For me, that's super helpful. It helps me have more compassion and just openness to other people in what feels like our lives. When I can recognize, oh, this was their lives before I came into it. And now I've made it our lives in Monoghan. But he's got a couple decades plus of life before I was here. Yes. And they are all products of their own patterns. Yes. Which I think helps us to have this big dose of compassion. It doesn't mean emotional or physical abuse is okay in any way. It doesn't mean we accept disrespectful behavior. It means how do we hold compassion for them while also making space for ourselves that feels authentic and in a way of how we'd want to build a family of connection and unity. And like we do with kids, recognize that behavior is communication of a need, right? And so when we're seeing that, like comment or the suggestion or the like, oh, that's what you're doing for food or sleep or whatever it is recognizing it's coming from a need, whether it's a need to be connected or to feel included or like they belong or to feel valued, and that we can honor that.

Alyssa: [00:43:40] Like, oh yes, I absolutely value The way that we were raised and the way that you raised him or whatever. And we're going to do this differently. Here's how you can show up with us in this. Yeah. And that both of those can be true, right? That like, we can respond to that need. Yes, absolutely. If we can see without giving up yourself. Yeah. Exactly. That's the key piece. Yeah, yeah. Oh I love this. I'm so stoked for this book to be out into the world. Thank you for writing it. Thanks for pulling a Liz and pulling it down or whatever. Super here for this. Thank you. I'm so grateful we got to chat today. Me too. Me too. Can you share where folks can kind of find you, follow you, and snag your book?

Dr.Tracy: [00:44:31] Absolutely. And I love You were one of the first ones to say snag. And I was like, oh, I love this. I just don't think it's I don't think it's Tracy enough. It's totally you. It's not me. But you can snag my book at tortricidae.com. One of my favorite things, though, from being on podcasts, is when listeners then come over to my DMs. Say hello to me. Because podcasting, you know, you know, there's thousands of people who are downloading our episodes.

Dr.Tracy: [00:44:54] And I just love hearing this one nugget. What was it that stood out for you today? What did you need to hear? What's left? You kind of going, oh, I need to think about that. And my social handles on all platforms is Doctor Tracy D.

Alyssa: [00:45:08] Stay tuned. After this note from our sponsors. Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown. Hey, I feel like I just had the most classic sensory scenario in my household this morning where I said good morning to sage, who was eating breakfast and he was just sitting in the kitchen at his spot, and Zach was in the kitchen, like making his own breakfast and coffees and stuff. And I came in and I was like, hey buddy. And like trying to chat with him. And he kind of seemed annoyed. And then he was like, why are you talking to me? And I was like, oh just trying to connect. Excited to see you this morning. Love you. And he was like, can you just stop talking to me? And I had, like, sudden, like, renewed compassion for my mother in law. Because this is how Zach is. He doesn't want anyone to talk to him in the morning either. He's like, just give me a minute. It's not fun when your kids just like, why are you talking to me? Yeah. I was like, yeah, just saying hi.

Rachel: [00:46:21] You are also like an auditory processor. Like I'm the person who doesn't want to be talked to in the morning.

Rachel: [00:46:30] Yeah. My nervous system just needs a minute to come. I need, like, one minute. Oh, I need, like, 30.

Alyssa: [00:46:38] Yeah. He'd already been awake for? Well, actually over an hour, because at 640 his tree lights go on in his room at 645, which means he can then get up and do stuff in his room, or he can watch a show. He could whatever. He can move from his bed. And at 640 I have my eye mask on because I sleep with one because of light, and I just feel this tapping across my head, all right, across my forehead. And I was like, what? And I open, I pull up the eye mask and he's standing there, and he was like, mama, the night feels too long. And I was like, what? And he was like, it's not morning yet. And the night's feeling too long. And I was like, your eyes are gonna come on in, like three minutes. Just go back to bed. He was like, okay.

Rachel: [00:47:30] What a week.

Alyssa: [00:47:31] I know he was up at 640 and this was at 8:00, so he'd been up for an hour and 20 minutes. It.

Rachel: [00:47:39] Why are you talking to me.

Alyssa: [00:47:42] Like I love you? I don't know.

Rachel: [00:47:44] I'm your mom. He's like.

Alyssa: [00:47:46] Yeah. He's like, if you love me, then stop talking to me.

Rachel: [00:47:50] Can relate.

Alyssa: [00:47:51] Yeah. It's like a renewed compassion, though, for my mother in law where I've heard, like, Zach's side of things, which is that she's, like, always talking in the morning when he was younger. And I'm like, maybe she just said hi. Turns out maybe all she maybe said was good morning.

Rachel: [00:48:10] This is a good segue, though, into today's conversation, which is about what.

Alyssa: [00:48:14] Is today's.

Rachel: [00:48:15] It's about mother in laws with Tracy. Oh.

Alyssa: [00:48:18] I love Tracy.

Rachel: [00:48:20] This felt very insightful for me, and I have to be careful what I say here. Yeah. Cody and I have been married for 12 years, and we were very, very young. I was 21 and he was 24 when we got married. So he went from like living with our parents to living with each other and still, like in a lot of ways, had codependency with our parents. And so there were like blurry boundaries.

Alyssa: [00:48:54] And I mean, as 21 year old and 23 year olds do. Right. Like.

Rachel: [00:48:59] Right. Yeah. I hadn't fully like I was launching into my marriage like it's.

Alyssa: [00:49:04] A soft launch. Yeah.

Rachel: [00:49:05] Off of I was barely a grown up. And so there were. And like, Cody can speak to this too, with my mom of just, like, navigating boundaries and figuring out and like, full disclosure, we were probably like 7 or 8 years in before we felt like we had established healthy boundaries that we were able to, like, consistently hold.

Alyssa: [00:49:34] Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, though. I think about, like, being a mom of a 21 year old who's getting married and moving from my house to a house with their partner, and I think that would be very hard for me to figure out the boundaries part of it. And like, what is my role? And there's sometimes a transition in parenthood where you might go to college and then go live on your own or go live with friends or whatever, and you're off in the world before you're then living with somebody else and doing life with them. And so I think from the parents side often get that transition or might get that transition where they're off on their own, but they're not bringing somebody home and making life decisions together. They're still making life decisions with you.

Rachel: [00:50:29] Right.

Alyssa: [00:50:30] And they're coming to Christmas, or they're doing, you know, Like those things are all a lot of the traditions might still be intact as your core, like family, whatever that had been. Your neutral family and nuclear family.

Rachel: [00:50:47] Could also be neutral, depending on personalities. Bless.

Alyssa: [00:50:52] I was just saying to Tricia, I was like, I do feel like ever since I've been sick, my brain is not.

Rachel: [00:50:58] Fully.

Alyssa: [00:50:59] Functioning. No. Yeah. We're still living with some brain fog over here. I think of that from both of your respective like, parents perspective. That must have been a very hard transition for them too.

Rachel: [00:51:13] Oh, yeah. And like my, my mom didn't keep that a secret. Like, she.

Alyssa: [00:51:19] I'm not shocked. I love her.

Rachel: [00:51:22] She wasn't really, like, enthusiastic about the timing of our marriage. Yeah. And on the flip side of that, my husband is a youngest child, which I am too. But he's the youngest child who's a male, which I think there's a different vibe there. And so his mom was used to having a lot of influence over his life, his decision making, how he spent his time. And so there was this kind of like learning curve of how do we set boundaries with respect? We love our parents and we want to treat them with respect. And also they're not going to be able to be telling us what to do.

Alyssa: [00:52:05] Yeah, right. And like as a parent, I'm like But I want to still guide you.

Rachel: [00:52:13] Totally. I mean, I can't imagine if Nora at 19 is like, oh, I met my soulmate getting engaged. I would be like, you're not thinking straight. You need to, like, back it up.

Alyssa: [00:52:25] You don't have a fully.

Rachel: [00:52:26] Developed.

Alyssa: [00:52:26] Prefrontal cortex.

Rachel: [00:52:28] Yeah. Like, what the heck is wrong with you?

Alyssa: [00:52:30] You can't rent a car yet.

Rachel: [00:52:31] Yeah, like just. Why? What are you doing? And so it would be really hard for me to watch these conversations have come up because Nora's, like, asking about her, her dad and my history and wanting to know why we chose to do what we did, whatever. And like. It is so hard for me because I feel like Cody and I, some of it's just like dumb luck. Sure, there's really hard work in there, obviously, and like counseling and whatever, dealing with our family of origin and all of the baggage that we both brought into the relationship. But part of it is just like, like there are people who do all that work and it still doesn't pan out.

Alyssa: [00:53:15] Yeah.

Rachel: [00:53:16] And so I feel like part of it is just like, we got really lucky and like, I don't want my kids to roll the dice, you know what I mean?

Alyssa: [00:53:25] No. Totally, totally that you Happen to you as you grew. Grow together. And some of that's a choice. Some of it's going to counseling and working through the stuff and understanding the stuff and choosing to love that person with some of their stuff that might never change. Like some of it is choice in love, and some of it is luck in love. That especially when you're that young and there's still so much of who am I in this world to come?

Rachel: [00:53:58] Like I didn't know who I was, I wasn't who I am.

Alyssa: [00:54:01] Correct. Yeah. And and I think that's probably true anytime people get married and then it's 12 years later that I'm not that same person either. And Zach and I have been together 13 years, and if I was the same person then that I am now, like, something's wrong. Totally. I think we're supposed to evolve and change. Yeah. And also, I think there is luck in that. You know, I have friends who are there in it, and they have kids, and all of a sudden they're like partners spanking their kids or doing stuff that feels really out of alignment and out of their value system. And they're like, wait, what? Didn't see this coming? And I got lucky in a lot of ways as well, that the human that I'm doing life with a is choosing to grow together and step into the work and all that and let me grow as my own person. Like that doesn't feel threatening to him.

Alyssa: [00:55:04] I mean, I've always been pretty fiercely independent to a fault. So I don't think marrying me the like fierce independence came as a shock down the road. It was always there. But there's a lot of personal development and growth that has happened that he didn't know about. I didn't know about when we got married. And I think about this too, with the in-laws side of things. I remember really early on in dating, it was maybe even like our first or second year of dating and being in a scenario where my father in law, who's incredible, who I love dearly, tried to make a joke, and it was like a comment about somebody, and I was in the back seat, sex in the front, and my father in law was driving. And Zach, who will avoid conflict at all costs, would rather die than have conflict, just kind of got quiet. And I said, oh, I don't think that's funny. In fact, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't make jokes like that around me. And Zach wanted to light himself on fire in that moment.

Rachel: [00:56:13] Yeah. He's like.

Alyssa: [00:56:13] Where's the match? Can I yes.

Rachel: [00:56:15] Jump in front of the car? Actually, not just out of it. In front of can I.

Alyssa: [00:56:20] Could one hit me on its way by? And I remember later on him starting to say something along the lines of like, you know, you can just ignore the jokes. And I was like, oh, just so you know, I'm never going to ignore the joke that I think is inappropriate. In fact, I think that perpetuates the culture that is really harmful. And he was like, okay. And just like I was like, oh yeah, thank you so much for your $0.02. I'll take $0.01, actually, and kindly shut up. I'm not going to be a part of this.

Rachel: [00:56:53] I think like this is something so similar dynamic here where like Cody is conflict avoidant, although less so, and I am more like, oh, you want to go, you want to play that game? Let's find out. And I had to let him know early on, like especially once we had kids and like this example of like an inappropriate joke. Like it fits for me too. And it's like I was more likely to let it slide prior to kids. And then when it was happening in front of my kids, I was like, oh hell no. And I would just be like, oh, that's not funny. That's super inappropriate. Don't say that in front of my children. And he, Cody hated it. And I eventually just had to say like, hey, I can handle it if it's a little bit awkward for a few minutes. And if your parents feel uncomfortable and aren't sure how to respond to me when I set a boundary, and if they want to have like a back and forth when the kids aren't around, I'm happy to do that too. But I am going to have to prioritize, like our kids creating their worldview over like your parents feelings for 30s.

Alyssa: [00:57:56] Totally.

Rachel: [00:57:57] With respect. Like I'm not trying. I'm not trying to like, fuel the fire for no reason here. But like, that's not going to fly in front of the kids.

Alyssa: [00:58:05] No. And and I think that I also feel super grateful. Zach is an only child, and he married somebody so vastly different from himself in just every.

Rachel: [00:58:18] Every way, A.

Alyssa: [00:58:19] Way. Every way. And his parents parented him. That they have one child and it was him. And they embraced me with open arms. All four of them. There's everybody's.

Rachel: [00:58:36] Divorced and.

Alyssa: [00:58:36] Remarried or whatever. And all four of them embrace me with open arms for all that I am and all the ways that I show up. And in fact, they celebrate it. They are the first folks there, like cheering me on, showing up at book tour events.

Rachel: [00:58:52] Or whatever.

Alyssa: [00:58:53] I'm doing.

Rachel: [00:58:55] And so sweet. Like Zak's dad being the first person in the audience at our very.

Alyssa: [00:59:00] First book kickoff event, you know, like that is who they are, though. They, like, show up in full force and with full love. And I feel so grateful for that because I came, you know, into this world, guns a blazin. I'm gonna say my truth. I'm not a people pleaser. I don't have people pleasing tendencies. I will stand in the discomfort for 12 seconds and longer if need be, and I will do it respectfully. But I will say my peace and baby. I was born this way. Like that is who I've always been, and I have so much gratitude in compassion for the fact that I am not the human that they raised. And I was thrust into their world with a lot to say, and they have handled me with such grace.

Rachel: [00:59:56] Totally. I do not fit into my in-laws family in any.

Alyssa: [01:00:00] Yeah, I don't think I'm who they would have chosen necessarily. Although they love me.

Rachel: [01:00:05] They love you. Yeah, and my in-laws love me too. But like, I in almost every way operate outside of their comfort zone There are belief systems all of it. And so it can be, I think a little bit, especially in the early days of marriage where you're trying to figure out like, how am I going to show up in this in-law relationship? And I think it was a little bit of a culture shock for them.

Rachel: [01:00:30] And like I was raised in a matriarchal family as well. So like there was always space for women to speak up in my family. And it's not as much in my husband's family, although that's shifted over the last 12 years. But I think, like, you know, you're, you're parsing that stuff out, and I'm, I married into this family where in a lot of ways, I think I was expected to just smile and nod, and I was like, oh, hold on, wait a second. I'm gonna, like, flip this on its head and figuring out how to do that in a way that is still loving and respectful.

Rachel: [01:01:06] Has been really key, because I do feel like within the boundaries that we've been able to set, even though my in-laws live so differently than me, We are able to coexist and be a family and have my kids have relationships with them that are so important to me. And for that, I'm really grateful.

Alyssa: [01:01:26] I agree, I was raised, I was actually raised in a more patriarchal culture, and I basically just came through saying, f the free world, like, here I am. And it was not celebrated. And Zach actually grew up in more of a matriarchal culture than I did.

Alyssa: [01:01:51] For sure. His mom's wife is fiercely feminist and I same family as you like matriarchal culture. And his dad's mom was the matriarch. She was an incredible human. And I feel grateful that at least there's that that like he had that. That was on my side. Really? Yeah. Respect for women was there for sure. And I now look at things and I think the hardest stuff for me to kind of reckon with when it comes to navigating in-law jazz are the vastly different ways that we were raised. We have definitely some similarities and overlap. But also, I mean, me being one of five kids, him being an only child and his parents have navigated anxiety throughout life, and my parents don't live with high anxiety and the ways that that shows up then in life. The questions that are asked at the very beginning, I was not used to parents calling and texting and checking in as often as my now in-laws did versus my parents, who, if I never called them, there was at 1.3 straight months where we did not talk, and it wasn't because anyone was mad at each other. It was because I was like, I'm not going to initiate a call and just see what happens. And then three months in, I was like, I kind of want to talk to my parents. You guys.

Rachel: [01:03:32] It was such a like, you guys are opposite ends of the spectrum in that way.

Alyssa: [01:03:36] Yes. And that was the hardest for me was being like, oh, I'm not used to people calling or.

Rachel: [01:03:43] Hey, did you get home safely? Did you get there safely?

Alyssa: [01:03:46] Yeah. And I was like, leave me alone. I'm fine. Yeah. Like it was hard for me. I was like, what is your problem? Leave me alone. Yeah. I'm safe. And it felt like they were coming into my independent space.

Rachel: [01:04:02] Totally.

Alyssa: [01:04:02] Right. Or when I'm hanging out with Zach, especially early on. And again, we, like, set boundaries. And they were so receptive and open and I feel so grateful for that. But at the beginning it was so many calls and texts from his family, and it would be like if we didn't respond to texts, then they'd call and then they'd leave a voicemail. I was like, this is suffocating for me. Like I feel suffocated and then realized, oh, it was also suffocating for Zach. He just didn't know another world in another way. And as we started to dive into that together and do therapy and eat his own therapy, and we learned what it looked like to set boundaries that felt good for both of us and how to set them. And that's all messy stuff at the beginning. I feel like when you're first learning it and yeah, ultimately I just feel grateful that I have such rad in-laws that are open to the newness, that some traditions change. Some.

Rachel: [01:05:04] Yeah, they're open to change. Growing together as ads. You and Zach are creating your own family, and what that means for in-law relationships and grandparent relationships. Like they're just willing to grow alongside you guys.

Alyssa: [01:05:18] Yeah, and I've had to grow too, right? That like, I have had to be like, yeah, I'm it's okay if every time we leave them we know we're going to get a text within 20 minutes because that's part of they're navigating the separation, right. Which for so long was annoying to me. I was like, we just saw each other and then started to realize, you know what? At the end of the day, yeah, I'm just going to respond to this text.

Alyssa: [01:05:45] And let that be its thing. And it stopped feeling suffocating when I started to understand the root of it and realized that it was small potatoes.

Rachel: [01:05:57] Yeah, totally.

Alyssa: [01:05:58] Just giving grace on my end. I think I've seen so many folks in our generation who completely cut people off because they want this other person to show up in an exact right way for them. And we're all humans on planet Earth with our own stuff. I don't want my kids to shut me off, because they're going to be imperfect ways that I show up with them in a relationship with them and their partners and all that jazz. And I think I got to model that.

Rachel: [01:06:29] Yeah, absolutely. Same. I want my kids to know that you don't have to show up perfectly. You don't have to agree on everything. There's a way to move with kindness and respect, even when you have some pretty big differences.

Alyssa: [01:06:42] Yeah. Agreed. And how to even, like, talk about those differences and navigate that. I see it as my responsibility to model for them.

Rachel: [01:06:52] Yeah. Me too.

Alyssa: [01:06:54] I'm super stoked about Tracy's book. I think it's going to be so helpful out in this world and just grateful for her. Head on over and follow her on Instagram and check out her podcast as well. I've done a couple episodes. We can link those out here as well for folks to check out her pod. Thanks, Rach. Oh wait, real quick before we say goodbye. Do you remember when I thought you were Zach's ex-girlfriend and didn't realize you were his cousin? Okay, great. I'm glad we worked through that. Okay, bye.

Alyssa: [01:07:26] Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at Voices of Your Village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at CDC. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag CDC and to let me know your key takeaway if you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.