How (and When) to Talk to Your Kids About Porn, with Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett

Before we dive in: This episode includes detailed discussions of sex, porn and a brief mention of sexual assault. Please take care while listening.

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with the help of AI and may contain minor errors or inconsistencies. Please refer to the audio for the most accurate representation of the conversation.

[00:00:00] Alyssa: You are listening to Voices of Your Village, and today we get to talk about a topic that, honestly, it makes me feel so uncomfortable to even think about talking about with my kids. We get to dive in with Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett about how and when to talk to your kids about porn. Dr. Cara Natterson is a pediatrician and New York Times bestselling author of 10 books, including the Care and Keeping of You series. Vanessa Kroll Bennett is a bestselling author and puberty educator. Together they are two of the most trusted voices on puberty co-authoring the national bestseller. This is so awkward, modern puberty explained and co-hosting This is so awkward: The podcast. Y’all, they are a game changing powerhouse duo. I turn to them for so much advice on how to talk to kids about sex and puberty and porn and all of the awkward parts of raising teens. They have an innovative health and sex ed curriculum for schools, and they have game changing products including over at Less Awkward.

[00:01:18] They have a membership for parents, a space where you can get your questions answered. Oh my goodness. I love hanging out with Cara and Vanessa because they use science, but also humor to encourage open albeit awkward conversations. They have a relatable, reliable approach to help keep kids safe and healthy Between them, they're raising six teenagers.

[00:01:43] This is something they're living every single day, and I love how honest and also approachable they are in this space. Two lovely humans to dive into a very awkward conversation with. All right folks, let's dive in.

[00:02:04] Hey there. I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co-creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans, raising other humans with deep thoughts and actionable tips.

[00:02:21] Let's dive in together.

[00:02:27] Are you stoked to chat about porn today? Always. Always obsessed. Oh, it's so good. Thank you for having this conversation with me because I think it's one of those things that there's so much fear around that everyone's like, maybe if I don't think about it, it just won't happen. Right. If I just like look the other way, there will be no porn in my child's life.

[00:02:54] That's a good strategy. 

[00:02:56] Vanessa: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. With everything really just like bury your head in the sand and it'll all won't even be there. It will. Yeah. That's actually the 

[00:03:04] Cara: strategy we recommend for everyone. 

[00:03:06] Alyssa: Just look away. Yeah. It'll be gone. Yeah. Uh, it's so funny, I have like, I have four brothers and everyone has grown now and has their own families and all that jazz, and now when we're all hanging out and like sharing stories about.

[00:03:24] Crap we did when we were younger, whatever. My mom's like, I don't wanna hear this. We're like, mom, it's already done. This happened. We survived it and got to adulthood. Yeah, we're good like you. Part of the reason that these things happened is you didn't wanna hear it then either. It's 

[00:03:42] Vanessa: just happened. Yeah.

[00:03:42] We're just the same thing. She's like, I don't wanna know. And I'm like, really? Still? It was like 30 years ago. Right. But I, I do think we did this amazing episode, um, on our podcast with Cara TAVRs who writes about cognitive dissonance. Mm. And one of the things she talks about is people's self-concept and that when.

[00:04:08] A decision or an action, um, sort of violates their sense of self-concept or like undermines their sense of self confidence. Memory plays a role in sort of rewriting what happens so they can preserve their self-concept without like being a liar basically. So I feel like at least once a week I have a conversation with my mom where I'm like, do you remember when, like you told me, I was like the worst person in the world ever when I had that tantrum.

[00:04:40] And she's like, I don't remember that. I would never have said that, by the way. She didn't actually literally say that, but like along those lines. And so Cara was like, right, because if she admitted to having said that, then that meant she was a bad mom. And her self-concept is that she was a good mom and she was a good mom.

[00:04:58] So it's like the same thing with like. Hey, do you wanna know what we did 30 years ago? And your mom's like, no, I don't. Yeah. 'cause it will, it will undermine my self concept. 

[00:05:09] Alyssa: That's right. That's a great point. That makes total, you know what, thank you Vanessa. Don't thank me. Thank Cara. Cara is amazing. I messenger amazing.

[00:05:16] We're obsessed 

[00:05:16] Vanessa: with her. Yeah. I need to know Cara. You need to know Cara. She's a blast. Everyone needs to a know Cara. Yeah, she's a blast. She was the co-author of Estrogen Matters with re Blooming, which is how we got to her. And we had Reman, it's all about like the women's health initiative and how they stop the study about menopause and like recommended women not do hormone replacement therapy and all of this stuff.

[00:05:38] And he was like essentially the whistleblower. And he and Cara wrote this book together because the study is essentially, and what happened after they stopped the study is a prime example of cognitive dissonance. Very cool. Very cool. It's so cool. But we're not talking about porn. Like I feel like we're taking ourselves Farfield.

[00:06:02] That's fair. Because 

[00:06:04] Cara: the strategy just gonna look away to not talk 

[00:06:09] Alyssa: very talking about it. We already had that conversation. Okay. No, I, let's, let's get into porn. I think first and foremost what we like need to hear, but maybe don't wanna hear is when are kids starting to either seek out or be exposed to porn?

[00:06:30] Because in my brain I'm just like, that's future Alyssa's problem. Like not present. Alyssa, she doesn't have to deal with that. So as my son would say, it's a tomorrow 

[00:06:39] Cara: problem. 

[00:06:40] Alyssa: Not 

[00:06:41] Cara: a problem. Yes, exactly. That's right. 

[00:06:42] Alyssa: And so I think we should start off by ruining some lives right now with letting people know it is today.

[00:06:48] Let's do it. It is a today thing, not a tomorrow thing. What is that age? 

[00:06:53] Vanessa: So we really love a report from Common Sense Media, which came out a couple of years ago that actually did a study with teens. Um, and it showed what those of us who work in this field have known for a long time, which is the average age of porn exposure in this country is 12 and 15% of 10 year olds have been exposed.

[00:07:15] And we purposely use the term exposed because many of them are not necessarily looking for it. Like maybe they google the word boobs and it comes up, or maybe they're playing as this happened with My Kids Club Penguin and a video of someone. Having oral sex came up. That was a, that was a fun one. We can talk about that.

[00:07:36] So it doesn't put the onus on the kids, right. Because as we'll talk about this stuff is super easily accessible and it is just like being fed to kids in all different ways. So the people who thought they needed to have the corn conversation with a kid at like 15 or 16, at that point, 75% of kids have been exposed to or are watching porn.

[00:07:59] So you gotta move your expectations of the age of conversation much earlier than you ever expected. 

[00:08:08] Alyssa: And it makes sense. I like that word exposed because. I think about like, it's not just, oh, I found this stack of magazines in my parents' bedroom, and like, that's my exposure now, right? It's, it is. I'm playing Baby Penguin, which I have so many questions about, and now I'm exposed.

[00:08:26] Right? Or like, 

[00:08:27] Cara: I mean, if there fingertips, what, what we would give for it to be a magazine, right? And, and we've had, we've actually had questions from parents and trusted adults saying, well, should I have magazines? Should I curate their exposure to porn so that it's not as bad as this non-consensual, violent, sort of, sure.

[00:08:52] Very aggressive video porn hot tip. The answer is no. 

[00:08:59] Alyssa: I don't, I can't imagine like a teenager being like, yeah, that I'm satiated and like, that's good. I have no other curiosities. I'm not taking that to the other mom for the porn. Yeah. No, I'm good. I believe this is all I should look up. Yeah. I, I can't imagine that ending there.

[00:09:17] When we say exposed, like what kinds of things are they being exposed to? Like what does that look like? 

[00:09:24] Vanessa: Right, so it's video and it's not just a video. It's video after video after video. And some really shocking places where, top 10 places where kids can access porn. Pinterest what uhhuh Google Maps. 

[00:09:43] Cara: What 

[00:09:45] Vanessa: top 10 my friend.

[00:09:46] So 

[00:09:47] Alyssa: it's not just like, I'm not enough enough for this. I gotta be interest more. Like what? 

[00:09:52] Vanessa: Because it's a, you know, collection. I've been a long things Yeah. Of images and videos. I mean, with Google Maps it's that if you click on the, you know, local like erotica store. Mm sure. They often have porn on their website.

[00:10:08] So like you click on it and then you can access their websites and then you can access porn. 

[00:10:13] Alyssa: You just like scrolling Pinterest. Like a kid's just pin in their new bedroom decor or whatever and then bam. 

[00:10:21] Vanessa: Or you know, they're sort of innocently search. I mean, and I say innocently 'cause as you mentioned, kids are gonna be curious.

[00:10:28] They wanna know about right boobs and penises and balls and butts and, you know, all this stuff like that is normal Curiosity. What they don't realize is. What will get fed to them when they search that up and then it becomes like an avalanche. So it's like video after video, after video. It's not just like the corner of the Playboy magazine with like the one breast, you know, ripped out for someone to look at.

[00:10:57] It's like, it is just like a constant stream. I mean, think about how they watch YouTube, right? YouTube is like just on a continual feed. There's no buffer. And so it's, it's pretty shocking. And unfortunately the free porn, right? We're not talking about like the feminist ethical porn behind it. Paywall, and this is super important we can get into this, is that it's often like violent and aggressive and misogynistic and racist.

[00:11:27] Like it is not sort of like, you know, it doesn't look anything like the sex you hope your kids will have someday when they grow up. 

[00:11:36] Alyssa: Sure. 

[00:11:37] Vanessa: Um. 

[00:11:39] Alyssa: Okay, so I think this is, my mind's already blown 'cause I'm like worried about roadblocks, which I don't even fully know what that is yet. But that keeps coming up in my sphere and like YouTube and now I'm like, add Google Maps to that radar.

[00:11:53] Uh, what uh, what are some things that, so if we're like, okay, gonna have this conversation with our kids, what does that conversation look like? Like how do we start it? How do we teach them what is a safe image of a body versus an unsafe, you know what I'm thinking of? Like, my kid knows about tampons and periods and we talk about bodies and we have books that talk about bodies and show pictures of bodies.

[00:12:23] And so the mixed messaging of like, we're gonna have books in our house that have pictures of bodies, but also you can't look at pictures 

[00:12:30] Cara: of bodies 

[00:12:30] Alyssa: elsewhere. 

[00:12:31] Cara: I'll say to that very point, we've created a ton of content over the years, educating kids and their adults about what is happening to the body.

[00:12:42] And we, we created all these characters like a talking boob and I mean, it was educational. It was literally like talking about lumps and bumps and breast buds, and it gets censored because it has a nipple, right? Sure. Like what, what is and isn't. Okay. In terms of the, the sort of global definition, cultural definition, social definition, but I'll start by saying it's, it's partly the what, and it's partly the when.

[00:13:10] Okay, so, um, this is not gonna be one conversation. This is going to be like a thousand conversations. Have fun. Yeah. I love that girl up. Yeah. This is gonna be so great. Um, but it really is, it's, it's gonna become so routine that over time the kids in your house are gonna be like, the kids in my house and just go, ah, please do we have to talk about porn again.

[00:13:35] And it's like, just one more time. Because there are 25 different things at any given moment that you want to cover when you cover this topic, as Vanessa said, what they're seeing, what they're exposed to, looks nothing like the sex you hope they will have. That said, it is not your job to curate the sex they will have.

[00:13:58] So, like, you gotta bridge that gap somehow and how you bridge that gap takes a lot of time. So. I'll start with the when and maybe Vanessa can pick up with that. What and the how. Um, because that's very stepwise too. And the answer to the when is we are big believers that it's never too early to introduce any of this content, frankly.

[00:14:22] And it's never too late. So if you have a kid who's 16 and you've never talked about any of this, take a breath, that's fine. You're gonna start now. But if you have a kid who's six who's starting to ask questions that make you think, gosh, I really need to be starting to get into this, then. You need to start to get into this.

[00:14:46] And because the data is that 50% of kids have seen have been exposed to porn by the time they're 12. By the way, that data's two years old and it's based on a data set that's four years old. So we don't even know what today's numbers are. But, um, because that's the data and because we know that 15% of 10 year olds have been exposed, if your kid is 10, that's kind of a good threshold to use.

[00:15:12] Like if you're wondering, Hmm, if they don't bring it up, when should I start? We usually say the beginner conversations start by 10 just given the statistics of exposure. So Vanessa, do you wanna take over with what they look like? 

[00:15:28] Vanessa: Yeah. I mean, and the truth is because. You have to define porn, right? If you're gonna have the conversation, you have to either find out what they know and plus define it.

[00:15:41] So porn is images of people doing sexual acts either by themselves or with another person. It could be video or photographs, right? It's sort of a broad blanket statement, and then you kind of wanna figure out what their starting point is. So I will tell a personal story, which was the conversation I had with my fourth kid when he was 10.

[00:16:07] And I was like, oh, okay, here we go. He's, he's 10. We gotta have this conversation. So I like to start a lot of these conversations, not just about porn, but about kind of anything with just a like, Hey, have you ever heard the word porn or pornography? And kids will often say like, oh yeah. And then you say, oh, well, you know, how would you describe it?

[00:16:31] Or what do you think it is? And they're like, I don't know, I just know it's like bad. Or it has to do with sex, right? So they've, they've heard it and they sort of feel this pressure to know what it is, even though they don't. So you use a little bit of definition, right? Like, um, and you had to have had the sex talk and they have to like, that has to be a word.

[00:16:50] You have to define your terms. And so when I asked my kid, he was like, oh yeah. And I said, well, do you know what it is? And he is like, oh, it's like, it has to do with sex. And like, I don't know, it's like kind of bad. And I'm like, yeah, well it's for adults, it's not for kids. And he's kind of nodding. And he was like, yeah, well, you know, I know some of my friends have been on PornHub.

[00:17:10] And I'm like, you know, the needle on the record just like screeched across the entire record. And I was like, alright, okay. Right. Okay. Um, so, and I said, do you know what PornHub? And he goes, no, I think it's like a website. Fine. So I said to him a few things. One. It's not for kids, it's for adults. Two, some of it can be pretty confusing and you may see stuff.

[00:17:36] If somebody shows you porn that like doesn't make any sense to you or is kind of like makes you uncomfortable, you can always come talk to me about it. I won't freak out. And you know, if someone shows you something or has shown you something, you can talk to me about it. 'cause I wanna be the person who can explain things to you.

[00:17:53] And he was like, okay, end of conversation. A week later, we're on a forced walk. You know those walks you go on with your kids, right? Where you're like, let's go for a walk. And you're literally like dragging him out the door. So we're on a forced walk and he was like, Hey, I think that my anime might have porn in it.

[00:18:18] And this, he has like literally eight bookshelves filled with anime comic books. And I'm like, okay, take a deep breath. And I said, oh, this is Cara's best line. Oh, that's so interesting. What makes you say that? She says that like, it's like perfect, but she says it in her like perfect radio voice. Oh, that's so interesting.

[00:18:39] What did you say? That? And he said, well, the women's clothes are always getting blown off when there's a fight and they end up naked and the men don't. 

[00:18:52] Alyssa: Ah, what? And 

[00:18:52] Vanessa: I was like, huh. A cute observation. Yes. And then he said, and sometimes the male characters are reading, um, magazines in my anime and they're naked women, and I think those might be porn magazines.

[00:19:06] And I was like, wow, that's really interesting. Like, how does that make you feel? And he said, it makes me feel like it's really unfair. 

[00:19:15] Alyssa: Hmm. 

[00:19:16] Vanessa: And I was like, great, my job is done. Are 

[00:19:19] Alyssa: you like, I, yeah, I'm done. You can live on your own. Right? 

[00:19:23] Vanessa: Except the problem is he has 800 volumes of anime sitting in his room.

[00:19:28] And so I kind of was like, what do you think about the idea of finding some other anime to read? And he's like, I think that might be a good idea. Great. And that was, that was it. That was the first of many, many, many conversations about poor, 

[00:19:46] Cara: I mean, I think one important clarifying fact is that Vanessa and I do this for a living.

[00:19:53] Our poor children have been exposed to these conversations forever, and the story in Vanessa's house was with a fourth kid. And so for those of you who are listening who have first or even second kids, the question may be like, what do they know even about sex? Totally do they even, right. Like how I don't, I don't know if I can have the porn conversation.

[00:20:18] I've never had the sex conversation. And it is important to realize you do have to put one foot in front of the other. You do have to have the sex conversation before going there with porn. Uh, Vanessa's child probably got that sex conversation like just through osmosis four or five years earlier. But it, it's all to say that there are some foundational conversations that are just as awkward.

[00:20:49] Alyssa: Well, and I think what's so striking in that example is that. He wasn't afraid of being in trouble. 

[00:20:55] Vanessa: Mm-hmm. Right? 

[00:20:56] Alyssa: He wasn't nervous that he had done the wrong thing, that you were gonna be mad at him, that you were gonna be anxious, that you would be mad and take that out on him, that his anime would be taken away.

[00:21:06] Like what if he was like, actually I'm kind of into it, right? Like this is cool. I wanna keep my anime, and that fear wasn't there. Which is such a foundational part of our kids knowing they can come to us, right. And talk to us about things and share. Because also there are gonna be times where I'd imagine they're in a situation where they don't leave the website, they don't leave the friend hang, or do the do the thing we want them to do.

[00:21:36] Right. 

[00:21:36] Cara: Well, I mean, this is so critical because probably the most important conversation to start with before you cover porn, before you cover sex, is you're never gonna be in trouble. For coming and talking to me about any of this stuff. This is not off limits conversation, and in fact, I really want to have these conversations with you.

[00:22:02] I wanna have these conversations with you so badly that I'm gonna bring it up regularly. That's gonna show you that I wanna have these conversations with you, and for anyone who has tried to bring this up and has been shut down over and over and over again, which happens a lot in a lot of homes, the answer is keep at it.

[00:22:23] Because just by being willing to go there over and over again, you are really demonstrating a willingness to cover this content, and you are showing them with your behavior. They're not in trouble. It's not their fault. Again, going back to the word exposed, they are. By and large exposed to this content.

[00:22:45] They're not typically choosing it. And even if they're choosing it, I would be the first one to say, it's not a free choice. They're not actively, the world is telling them to choose it. So like 

[00:22:56] Alyssa: Totally 

[00:22:56] Cara: they're not in trouble. Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:59] Vanessa: I mean, an interesting place I've been hearing about kind of porn exposure or like erotica exposure is, um, with Kindles, people who have unlimited Kindle subscriptions and their kids are using their Kindles and are kind of finding this content and then have unlimited access to it.

[00:23:21] And you know, that's a place where it's super complicated, right? Because you're like really excited that your kid is reading and, um. You know, that's wonderful and you want them to keep reading. And yet, um, and this is an example, I heard that someone's kid stumbled upon a slave narrative with, um, BDS and M content and they were like, um, okay, how do I address this without shaming my kid, both for having been titillated by this content and for reading, which I desperately want them to do.

[00:24:01] And so it's an example of like, even if you're freaking out in your own head, even if you're like, have a little bit of vomit in the back of your throat, thinking about your kid reading this stuff or seeing this stuff, you gotta fake it till you make it. Like this is an example where you're like. Calm as a cucumber, even if you're screaming inside.

[00:24:22] Because the message, as Cara said, is like, you can always come to me. I am a safe place to come to. I can handle what you've done. I can handle your reactions to what you've seen or experienced. Like I always want you to come to me and if kids see you freaking out and losing your mind and shutting stuff down and kicking them off platforms and all that stuff, like they're not gonna come to you, which is the opposite of what we want.

[00:24:49] Alyssa: I love that. Like as a foundation, just you're not in trouble. And I'm wondering like as kids start to get older and they are kind of like seeking it out or they are curious and maybe they are interested in like. I do wanna check porn out. Are there ground rules? Are there conversations we can have with them around that?

[00:25:15] This, like, even as the questions coming out of my mouth, I'm like, I wanna throw up thinking about having to have that conversation. I grew up in a household and we chatted about this on, on your podcast on my previous one, where it was just like, you know, Kate Entzel taught me how to put in a tampon. The, the idea of somebody talking to me about sex.

[00:25:31] I've had two kids and my mom was at both of my births and my dad actually too, but outside of the room, 'cause that's his worst nightmare. Um. Still never, no one's ever talked about sex. Uh, they just, they just appeared in my womb and, and then exited. But I like walked out. That's right. That's right. Uh, we're evicted.

[00:25:55] And so when we're looking at like, oh, we're gonna have this conversation with them, for folks who grew up like me were like, sex wasn't talked about. Definitely there was no conversation about porn or I'm assuming consent kind of fits into this here too. 

[00:26:10] Cara: I mean, this is an amazing question. Amazing. On many levels.

[00:26:15] The first one is, I don't think we've ever gotten this question. I think Oh, cool. You know, which is amazing. I mean, right when you stop and think about it, that it's really important to kind of go stepwise. And go, okay. If we know they're gonna be exposed, if we know that basically a hundred percent of them see it before they graduate from high school, well then what guardrails do you put up for them beyond?

[00:26:39] You can talk to me about everything you've seen is a really good question to which there is not a great answer. I mean, there, get outta here. That's not what I was looking at. Are No, there is. There are. That myself. There are. There are. Are there? You're there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. There are, there are conversation.

[00:27:00] There are things you can put into place, but what, the reason I say it that way is again, it is not our job to curate their. Sexual evolution, their curiosity, their titillation. And so you are skating on super thin ice as you start to say, well, if you're gonna see porn. So the way that we always recommend that people be in conversation with their kids is to explain the why behind why we worry about porn being essentially their sex education.

[00:27:37] Why do we worry about it? Because when you are watching and titillated by violent, non-conceptual sex that. Teaches you that this is the way that sex ought to go. That this is what feels great with sex, and you know, that's a no-brainer situation. It's not the sex we want our kids to have, that it's a, it's not okay.

[00:28:01] B, it's, it's also not the goal, right? The goal is like healthy, fun, exciting, whatever that means to you. Consensual sexual interactions with other people, or if someone chooses not to be sexual, that's fine too, but it's very hard to put up to sort of set ground rules about what they access and what they see.

[00:28:27] There are a lot of conversations about how to interpret what they see. There are a lot of conversations about how to talk to you about what they see, but in terms of like navigating these sites or winding their way through, that's what I get stuck with. But Vanessa, what do you think? 

[00:28:45] Vanessa: I 

[00:28:45] Cara: mean, 

[00:28:46] Vanessa: there's certain things you can set up in your house so that you're not creating an environment that kind of fosters porn watching and porn dependency in order to orgasm.

[00:29:00] And I say that really specifically because yes, there's curiosity. Yes, kids will get past parental controls no matter what you set up. You know, you can have 85 guardrails and kids are really smart and tech savvy and they'll figure out ways around all of it. Um, so like one rule you can have as kids get older is no devices in the bedroom or the bathroom.

[00:29:24] Like you go those things stay out of those spaces, which are probably the spaces kids will decide to if they're gonna go looking for porn, where they might go looking and if they're watching porn, use porn to masturbate. And here's a complicated thing, like you wanna normalize that people will touch their own bodies.

[00:29:43] We'll masturbate. We'll figure out what feels good. And that's a great thing because then if you decide to have partnered sex, you know what feels good? You can communicate to your partner, right? You don't want any shame on that side of things. And yet you don't want them to depend on porn in order to masturbate.

[00:30:02] And so that, to Cara's point, that's a very fine line to walk, is like, Hey, there's nothing wrong with touching your body and masturbating. But if you use things like porn, which is increasingly violent and aggressive and you need increasingly more extreme porn in order to orgasm, obviously that's not the conversation you have with a 6-year-old.

[00:30:24] That's a conversation you have with a 12 or 14 or 16-year-old that's gonna make your sex life actually really challenging. Because when in real life the research tells us that people who use porn, increasingly extreme porn to orgasm on their own, have difficulty doing so in person with a partner. Again, older kids will get that.

[00:30:46] Younger kids, that's not the conversation. You're having younger kids. It's like, it's not for you. This is not for you. If you see it, come see me. It's that. It's the older kids with devices with access to devices. So 

[00:30:58] Alyssa: I think that's so helpful as a framework though, of like even that data and being able to share that with them of the.

[00:31:06] We know that kids start asking why when they're like three, right? Like they always wanna know the why behind a thing. And I'm a human who, I wanna know the why, and then I use that why to decide whether or not this is a boundary I'm going to follow. 

[00:31:19] Vanessa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:20] Alyssa: And so if I understand the why and it makes sense to me, and I like know that data, then I'm more likely to follow that boundary that's being set.

[00:31:31] I'm, 

[00:31:32] Cara: I'm obsessed with why. Yeah. Vanessa knows like, yeah, I'm obsessed. Right? Because you can follow the rationale, 

[00:31:39] Alyssa: right? That's right. Instead of just like, 'cause I said so and I'm like, great. Can't wait to do this thing then because that doesn't work for me. Uh, and so I love that Vanessa, like that qualifier.

[00:31:51] Is there an opportunity within there? Is it appropriate to share about how a lot of porn is non-consensual and there is violence in it, and there are spaces where that's not necessarily the case. 

[00:32:05] Cara: There's not just an opportunity, there's a requirement. Mm-hmm. I mean, right. This is what free porn looks like, as Vanessa said.

[00:32:12] Yeah. It's, it's violent, paid behind a paywall, ethical feminist porn. We're having a different conversation, but free porn there. It's, it's really, if you, if you start looking at the history of what porn porn actually looks like year over year, it has to ratchet up in order to keep its audience coming back for more.

[00:32:38] Sure. No pun intended. Sure. Well can, oh, you snuck in the I did. Can I add Now she's open the 

[00:32:46] Vanessa: gate. It's all gonna be a flood. 

[00:32:48] Cara: I wanna add one little. Blowing your mind. Statistic please to Vanessa's, um, description. 'cause I think it's important to round out the conversation with what happens outside of your home.

[00:33:01] So Vanessa is spot on. Correct that among the most common places for kids. She knows what I'm gonna say. 'cause I can see this s mark on her face Among the most common places for kids to watch porn are home in their bedroom or the bathroom. Also, among the most common places for kids to watch porn is school.

[00:33:25] Whoa. Okay, so 40%, four 0% of porn viewing by tweens and teens happens at school, which is bananas. 

[00:33:40] Vanessa: And over 30% of that viewing happens on school devices. 

[00:33:45] Cara: Oh damn. Okay. So just like, I think sit with that for a second. Everything that you are, you think it's awkward to talk about doing it at home. Like you've got so many more tricky conversations ahead of you because these are, these are conversations that actually have to be had about not just the what of it, but the where of it.

[00:34:09] Alyssa: Well, and I think, I was thinking back to Vanessa, your conversation about the anime and how your son was able to identify some really key things that stuck out to him that for me, are just like, oh, he this, he's heard so many other conversations that are like tangential to this, right? Where he knew that it didn't feel okay for him, for the girls' clothes to get blown off, for that to never happen to the boys or men in this scenario that.

[00:34:42] I'm assuming he is probably had a million conversations around consent and what that even means and what that looks like, so that then he knows, oh, non-consensual isn't what I want and wouldn't feel good for me. That that's not my goal. Right. And I think that that's so key is that he already has that feeling inside of like, that actually isn't what I want.

[00:35:08] And so if I knew that I was consuming something where that's probably the case, that's probably a real boner killer. 

[00:35:16] Vanessa: Right. I mean, I didn't know that was gonna be the closing phrase, but I'll, I'll, I'll run with that. Um, we'll 

[00:35:24] Cara: footnote 

[00:35:24] Vanessa: you when you, I mean, when we use 

[00:35:25] Cara: it endlessly 

[00:35:26] Vanessa: Yeah. One of the, one of the ways we talk about consent a lot at my house and my kids are now between 15 and 22.

[00:35:35] Right. So the consent conversations. Could go any number of ways, but one of the things we do is we use our dog and how my kids treat our dog and how they pet our dog, and how they pick our dog up and put our dog down and move our dog to different places as a way to teach about consent. And, you know, that didn't look so consensual to me when you picked the dog up and carried them, um, while dancing to rap, music across the kitchen, just, you know, as a random example.

[00:36:08] Um, and so, yeah, I mean, consent conversations happen all the time. So with little kids, one kid is tickling another kid and the kid is saying, stop, stop, stop. But they're laughing. So that's an amazing opportunity to have a conversation about consent when somebody's using the words, but also based on like the way they're acting and the way their face works or they're laughing, like you can't tell.

[00:36:33] Listen to the words. Listen to the words, right? Because when you think about in a non-consensual sexual situation, someone might be nervous or scared, and their reaction to that is laughter. Mm-hmm. And yet they're saying no. Right? Like, you can carry it forward. So, um, borrowing things, taking french fries from someone's plate, that's an example that Shafi Loom uses.

[00:36:56] You know, items, toys, clothing, all of the, there's so many amazing ways to talk about consent with little kids when they get older. There's all sorts of ways in which non-con, non-consensual sex, say that three times fast, um, shows up in porn and shows up in kids' sexual morays and teens and young adults.

[00:37:20] And one of the biggest ways is actually around choking. And, um, the ubiquity of choking in young people's sex. It's technically called strangulation. But about a year ago, Peggy Ornstein wrote a op-ed in The Times, um, citing the work of Debbie Herbenick out of Indiana University about ref sex. Debbie runs a, a sex institute at Indiana and focuses her work on asking young people about their sexual morays, including choking.

[00:37:52] And 66% of the women who responded, young women said they had ever been choked in a sexual encounter. And 33% said in their most recent sexual encounter, they had been choked. And Debbie and Peggy, and, you know, researchers point to. Porn as sort of driving that, if you've been having 800 consent conversations in your household before that moment where a kid is in a position, and by the way, young men talk about being asked to choke their partners.

[00:38:32] Yes. 'cause their partners have seen the porn that's like, oh, people wanna be choked, or people want to choke. I'm gonna ask for it. Right. So laying the groundwork about consent is like a bulwark against all of the onslaught of the sexual narratives that are coming at people from things like pornography.

[00:38:52] Cara: But I wanna layer on there that there's consent is so critical, and also helping them understand that what they see as normalized is not necessarily. Right, aspirational. Right. Because when both Peggy, who embedded herself with college students for months and months at a time, um, and Debbie, who has been studying these students for years and years and years, when each of them have gone on to ask all of the kids with whom they're interacting, the kids will say, like, Peggy will describe the kids as saying.

[00:39:35] I thought that my partner wanted this. Both sides will say, I thought the other person in the equation wanted this. So it is, there's both the, this very important sense of consent, but there's also this very important kind of what Vanessa's describing with her adorable dog Marty is exactly right, which is like, how do you know what the other person or dog wants?

[00:40:06] Like how do you, and if you ask if something's okay and the world has normalized it, but really in their heart, they're like, I don't think I want this, but this is what I've watched in videos and this is what I think I'm supposed to want. How do you like get under that? And that's where the millions of conversations come in because you can't go there in one conversation or five conversations.

[00:40:27] That is a finesse over time. 

[00:40:31] Alyssa: As you mentioned gender, they're looking at how, like, this was for me just like a aha moment of, oh, it's teaching girls how they are supposed to, or how they think they're then supposed to show up. 

[00:40:46] Vanessa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:47] Alyssa: And just leading them further and further away from their own desire or intuition or like what does actually exploration, what does actually feel good for me or work for me?

[00:40:58] Or what do I want into, what does this person want me to be and how do they, how should I show up for them? 

[00:41:05] Vanessa: I mean, when my, one of my kids was 15, he said to me, and again, these are stories from my house and a household that's talking about these topics, sort of ad nasm, but I will share this. So with a grain of salt, um, he said, do men orgasm?

[00:41:26] So I'm like, okay, someone's seen porn, okay. Like I'm, I'm, I'm hip to that. And I said, um, they do what, what makes you ask that? And he said, well, I've seen stuff where it's really clear that the woman is orgasming. Like, right. If you think about the sort of performative orgasm that a kid might see in porn or frankly mm-hmm.

[00:41:49] In like the r-rated movie that you took them to last week. And he's like, it's not clear with the, the man, right. Because the way men are sort of shown to orgasm is much more reserved or it's sort of less, less dramatically performative. And I was so struck by that. And what it did was, yes, both partners can, can orgasm, it might look different.

[00:42:15] It it biologically it's different. I said, but your job as a partner is actually to make sure your. Partner has pleasure before you do, and he was like, okay. How do I do that? Mm-hmm. I love that. He feels so safe to ask that question. And I sort of paused and my husband was like sitting in the corner of the couch and and noon walking out of the room.

[00:42:41] Like no. He was like literally trying to make himself as small as possible, but like in our apartment. And I was like, dude, you're not going anywhere. Like we all know you're there. You're not snuffleupagus. We can all see you. And he was like, you find her clitoris. My son was like, okay, where is that? And you know, me being me, I was like, okay, how do I tell him more?

[00:43:05] Like, how do I do that without, like, the temptation is to be like, here, let me show you, which of course I'm not gonna do. And so we kind of like gave him a little bit of a map. My husband has no sense of direction except in this, in this way. He has a good sense of direction in all other ways. He has no sense of direction.

[00:43:23] So we were sort of like giving him a map. But the point is, it's actually not about the clitoris. It's actually not about any of it. It's about setting the values. Like we have an opportunity to set the values for our kids about what their relationship to sex is, about, what it means to be a partner, about what it means to be a thoughtful communicator about what it means to be vulnerable and intimate, right?

[00:43:47] Like, we're all gonna choose to do this in a million different ways. But my goal with my kid is like, if you are worried about your partner's pleasure, there's 9 million things you are not doing to your partner that could cause them harm. That could transgress consent, right? Like, if that's priority number one, which is what I was trying to convey, then that removes hopefully a whole host of other things that are not healthy behaviors.

[00:44:15] You 

[00:44:15] Cara: know, I, I just wanna say all of this is why. It is so important to be having this conversation because both of you have talked a lot about how the narrative of what sex looks like is written for our kids. It really is. It's written, look, this was the printing press was an existential crisis when it first showed up because of porn.

[00:44:44] Okay, let's like not forget, this is not just about phones and screens and PornHub, but whether it's the written word video, you know, platforms that share content, um, whether it's professional pornographers, amateur pornographers, whether it's big Hollywood movies, there are so many. Places that we all turn to see what sex is supposed to look like, which is very bizarre when you stop and think about that.

[00:45:22] I mean, this is a, this is a very animalistic behavior. It has evolved evolutionarily so that our species can continue to populate the earth, and yet there are all of these outlets that tell us what it's supposed to look like and how we're supposed to do it. And if you are feeling uncomfortable about having the conversation, I think one of the first things to tap into is a recognition that you just don't want someone else telling your kid what it should look and feel like.

[00:45:56] Like. Right. I mean, that's like at the core and if, 

[00:46:01] Alyssa: if that's, but I'm not totally sure that's true car. If you wanna come tell my kid what I like, that I accept. Uh, but otherwise, yes, the general public, I don't want teaching them for sure. 

[00:46:12] Cara: Right. I'm available. I'm available on Wednesday. 

[00:46:15] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:46:16] Cara: My kids would be like, go get outta the house.

[00:46:18] Um, but I I, I do think that's like, to get over, as Vanessa would say, every time we bring up the topic of porn, she's like, is there a little bile in the back of your throat? And it is so true. It is a nauseating, gut wrenching topic every time. And yet, if all you're thinking is I can help them write their own story instead of Yeah, follow someone else's, you're good to go.

[00:46:43] Alyssa: Yeah, you, my like, greatest takeaway from this conversation is that it feels less scary. Like, oh God, I like coming in. I'm like, fuck, I don't know what Roblox is, but they are never playing it. Right. Just like all the, like how do I prevent this from happening? And it makes me think of my friend Ash Brandon wrote mm-hmm.

[00:47:05] Gamer educators, their, their handle. And they have the book power on coming out about screens and they were talking about screens in this way of like, if we know that drowning is a really high risk for kids, right. That water is not safe if they don't know how to swim. Mm-hmm. And we're not like, you know what, you're never going near water for the rest of your life.

[00:47:26] We're gonna keep 'em away from all water. That's right. 

[00:47:29] Vanessa: Right. 

[00:47:29] Alyssa: We give them the skills to navigate the water. Right. And. How the, like that popped up for me here. Like, okay, my goal isn't to control their entire sex life. It is to, that also sounds daunting. Um, it's true. It's really hard work. Give them the skills to navigate it.

[00:47:48] That's right. And that's what we get to do here. And that feels way less scary to me. 

[00:47:54] Vanessa: Yay. And the thank you and the values, like you, you're not gonna curate your kids' sex life. You're not gonna dictate what feels good to them or who they're attracted to, or what feels meaningful or exciting to them when they get older.

[00:48:09] But you are gonna say, Hey, love is important. Meaning is important. Connection is important, respect is important. Laughter is important. Communication is important, right? Those are all things you can do in the context of the porn conversation, in the context of the, of the sex conversation, but also in the context.

[00:48:27] Of the friendship conversation in the context of, you know, taking care of your pet conversation. Like there's all these ways in non-car contexts mm-hmm. Where you can convey values that will then translate into these kind of bigger, more complicated subjects. 

[00:48:45] Alyssa: Do you guys cover porn? I don't remember. In your book.

[00:48:47] Yeah. This is one. Oh yeah. Thank goodness. Okay. Yeah. Thank goodness. Snag. This is so awkward. Also follow them and listen to the podcast because it's a lifeline. Uh, thank you so much. Thanks for guiding me in this part of this journey. Um, you guys are the best. Thank you for this. Thanks for making it less scary.

[00:49:10] Oh, it's so mutual. We love 

[00:49:11] Vanessa: being here. We love you. It's so fun. Bring on porn. We're here. 

[00:49:18] Alyssa: The, the final message, what we're gonna close out with is bring on porn. We're here. Stay tuned after this note from our sponsors, Rach and I will be right back with the breakdown.

[00:49:33] Rachel: So anyway, all of this to say, I found this, it's called a buddy bike and it's like a bike without a front wheel that attaches to the back of my bike, found it on marketplace today for a very good price and I'm buying it. I love this for you because then he can enjoy it. Enjoy is not the word I would use, but tolerate it more.

[00:49:59] Yeah, for sure. He like has the option though, to not pedal and just ride and if there's a breeze, yeah, but I still think he's 

[00:50:06] Alyssa: not gonna enjoy it. I think that has to be a mindset shift for you that it's not gonna be something's like, oh, oh. I don't expect 

[00:50:13] Rachel: him to be like, 

[00:50:14] Alyssa: ha ha, 

[00:50:14] Rachel: ha, 

[00:50:14] Alyssa: this is the best day of my life.

[00:50:18] I don't think enjoyment is, I think it's gonna be, he can tolerate it better, 

[00:50:23] Rachel: but I think like just if he doesn't feel like he's dying in a desert, it will be. Mm-hmm. Like a win. 

[00:50:29] Alyssa: It's like me and vision boarding. Like I cannot imagine a world in which I enjoy doing a vision board, but there are circumstances in which I tolerate it more.

[00:50:41] Mm-hmm. Like if we have a good playlist going, if I'm hanging out with people, I really enjoy, you know, if I have a little bit of structure and instruction around how to do it or what to do, like those are things that lead to me like tolerating the activity more. Yeah. But I've never once done a vision board and enjoyed the process.

[00:51:03] Rachel: Yeah. 

[00:51:05] Alyssa: That's how I think this might go for him on the bike. 

[00:51:07] Rachel: Well, we're gonna find out 'cause I'm gonna bring it to Ocean Park. 

[00:51:11] Alyssa: Wow. Okay, cool. Hilarious. My favorite part of this right now is we go to the beach every year and we got a household of like four families. Yeah. What 

[00:51:23] Rachel: better time than when he's overstimulated and overtired, 

[00:51:26] Alyssa: he's gonna be already fried and you're like, you know, we're gonna do buddy, don't worry, we're gonna go on a bike ride.

[00:51:32] You're gonna also, it's 

[00:51:32] Rachel: something new. You've never been on this piece of equipment. 'cause that's gonna be a whole thing too, is like, he's not gonna feel like he doesn't know it yet. I hesitate to add to this story because we're having these tech issues today, but one of the things that happened before we went on the bike ride is we tried to get him a new bike 'cause he's also outgrowing his bike.

[00:51:52] And Cody got frustrated because we were like at the store for a while, like finding the right size, waiting for them to bring it out and then like able got on it and he was like, no, this feels different. I'm not doing it. And I was like, let's just let it go for the day. We can revisit this. And Cody was like, Ugh, that was such a waste of time.

[00:52:08] I'm like, babe, we're gonna have to buy the bike and like have it at home and slowly build like a trust with it. Um, he's not the kind of kid who can just go to the store and buy a bike and be like, all right, I'm off ready for my big bike ride that I don't wanna go on. 

[00:52:25] Alyssa: Hundred percent. Yeah. It's not gonna be.

[00:52:28] Oh man. That's good. Obsessed. So good. Uh, who are we chatting about today? Okay, this is the porn episode. Ooh, okay. I get hang out with Vanessa and Cara every day of the week. They're so fun and it's such a good episode. Yeah. I, I reached out to them and was like, hi, who do you have for porn? And they were like, LOL what a hilarious way to ask that question.

[00:52:54] And they're like, honestly, like, we haven't found anyone else who's discussing it in a comprehensive way that we agree with. And I was like, okay, so can you come talk to me about it? 'cause I have so many questions. And it's just, it's one of those topics where. In my brain. It's so much farther off in terms of when I need to start having these conversations than it is in actuality, and I hate that.

[00:53:21] That's one of those things I hate. That's just real. 

[00:53:24] Rachel: Totally. This was really helpful for me because I have had like the little kid discussions with both of my kids, but now like with Nora, I'm getting closer to needing to have like the bigger kid discussions. I'm getting to that point where like Nora could stumble upon that industry and I on Google Maps and Pinterest, could you handle that information?

[00:53:47] Or even like when they, 'cause I have a Kindle and I have Kindle Unlimited, and I don't personally use it for erotica, and Nora doesn't use my Kindle yet, but 

[00:53:56] Vanessa: mm-hmm. 

[00:53:57] Rachel: Some of her friends have Kindles and so she's starting to get like interested in it. It didn't even occur to me that she could find and read erotica on a Kindle.

[00:54:06] Like there are these avenues where like, mm-hmm. I hadn't even thought about it yet. 

[00:54:12] Alyssa: Yeah, a hundred percent. Same. I was like, I'm sorry, Google Maps, what? Pinterest Like, oh yeah, let's paint your room and set it up and let's create a Pinterest board. Wait, what? Right. That was mind blowing for me and, and ultimately I did leave the conversation feeling so much better.

[00:54:34] It feels more achievable for me, knowing that my ultimate goal is to have a relationship with my kids, where we have tricky conversations like this and they know that I'm a safe person to have those conversations with, and that they're not gonna be in trouble. That is the foundation of so much of our work, and so built into big kids, bigger feelings.

[00:55:03] I feel like we just literally wrote a book about how to do that, how to cultivate that relationship. And so feeling like this is just another part of that felt, yeah. Comforting for me. 

[00:55:16] Rachel: Same. And like in the same way that I maybe don't want to talk about certain topics with my kids, but I also don't want their first education about it, so to speak, to be in the wrong place.

[00:55:28] Like I think about talking to my kids about like gun violence or other, or like drug use, you know, and things like that. And not wanting to have those conversations too early, but also understanding that like they're gonna get that information from a place that isn't ideal if I don't talk to them about it.

[00:55:47] First talk. Correct. 

[00:55:49] Alyssa: Yeah. I want there to be a world where I never have to have this conversation same and recognize that if I don't, they're gonna learn it somewhere. They're gonna learn about it somewhere. And it was also really interesting. I hadn't thought about the perspective around. If your child is learning about sex through porn, that their likelihood of having sex that they enjoy down the road is so much lower.

[00:56:22] Vanessa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:22] Alyssa: Which makes sense, right? That like if your expectation is porn and then I don't know, your sex life is like, but it's, mine's not porn, that's for sure. And so if kids are like walking into it thinking, oh, this is what it's supposed to be and this is how it's supposed to look. And then as they were talking about that survey data with college age kids, were they, they interviewed two genders, male and female, and they were both reporting that they thought they were doing what the other gender that they were having sex with in hetero relationships wanted.

[00:57:01] But it wasn't actually what they wanted. It's just what's been depicted in porn. Yeah, with things like the choking, et cetera. And I was like, oh man, they're just trying to figure this thing out. And if we aren't a resource for them, again, not to tell them how to enjoy sex or what to enjoy in sex. Right.

[00:57:22] But to help them understand that what they're seeing isn't real. Right. 

[00:57:27] Rachel: It's performative. And, yeah. I also like the distinction that they made that most of the porn that kids are gonna stumble on is like free porn, which is often like really unethical and shitty and Yeah. Having these conversations.

[00:57:41] 'cause I don't want my kids to think that that is what like healthy sex is. 

[00:57:46] Alyssa: Um, yeah. And connection and respect for another human and consent and like Right. 

[00:57:50] Rachel: And I don't want them to, I don't want them to. Move into adulthood and their sexual relationships feeling as though it's a performance for the person that they're in this relationship with, rather than like a way to connect with them.

[00:58:06] Alyssa: Yeah. 

[00:58:07] Rachel: Um, but man, these conversations are tough and I, I always, it's always this back and forth between like, I don't want to introduce a concept too early and I also want their first experience of it to be from me, like their first introduction to it, you know? A 

[00:58:24] Alyssa: hundred 

[00:58:25] Rachel: percent. 

[00:58:26] Alyssa: Yeah. It is that tricky line.

[00:58:27] That's where I was really grateful to have that guidance from them around, okay, when do we start to see this actually pop up for kids so that then I can gauge what do I need to do before then? Because also, as they were saying, like. You're not gonna talk about porn if you've never talked about bodies and sex.

[00:58:47] Right. That like there's stepping stones to getting to talking about porn. And so now I can lay foundations for talking about things like, yeah, we don't take pictures of our naked bodies. And then being able to like help them understand their own body parts and all that jazz and desig notifying things like how bodies work right now, so that then I have a foundation to stand on when it's time to talk about things like porn.

[00:59:17] Yeah, we do talk about things in our household, like it's never okay for an adult to touch your body in a way that like in certain body parts, it's never okay for an adult to show you their body parts. That are hidden under clothes, it's never okay for them to ask you to take your clothes off. And if any of these things happen, even if that adult says that you're not allowed to tell, you can always tell us and we'll keep you safe.

[00:59:50] Rachel: Yeah, we have those. Those are those things that 

[00:59:51] Alyssa: we say. 

[00:59:52] Rachel: We have those conversations too, and like Nora is 10 and so she acts tired of hearing it, but now I'm like, okay, Abel is at an age where I need to continue the conversation with him. And just wanting them to always know that if they have an experience like that, it's not their fault and I can help them.

[01:00:15] Alyssa: Yeah, I think that that's so huge is the, like, you're not in trouble part. Mm-hmm. And it's tough because it's like you wa your reactive system's gonna come into play where it's like, what were you doing? Why were you looking at that? Or why were you there? Whatever. Like the, I want to figure this out so I can solve it so it doesn't happen again immediately comes up for me in these types of things.

[01:00:39] And I have to like pump the brakes and first validate before I go into like, problem solver mode for sure. 

[01:00:48] Rachel: Um, and I think too, like not, I think about with both of my kids actually, if I put a lot of pressure on them, if I'm like, you know, one of them comes home from school and they've had a conflict with a friend, I'm like, all right, well tell me, tell me what happened.

[01:01:02] It can really like shut them down and shut them off. And I have to be mindful of just being like, Hey, if there's something that you ever need to talk to me about, like I'm here. Instead of being like, tell me everything, what happened? You know, I don't want them to feel like I'm an, like, it's an interrogation.

[01:01:22] Alyssa: A hundred percent. Yeah. I was thinking about in, in our book in Big Kids, we have that tackling taboos, uh, chapter. We talk about sex in there and that one of the things we talk about is how it's, it's hard to know, like, how deep do I go? How, what's the right amount of questioning to provide, like when in this example, I was putting my three-year-old to bed, and he asked if there was a baby in my belly.

[01:01:51] And I was like, no, remember the baby that was in there was your sister and now she's out. And he was like, but how did she get in there? Hmm. And I was like, oh, well I wasn't ready for this. I just wanted to go back to like reading the rabbit listened, or like moon mock my way outta there. And I was like, wow, are we already doing this at three?

[01:02:09] And then immediately it was like, how much do I share? What do I say? I have to actively tell myself to say nothing for a while to calm enough, to be able to say enough without too much because I err on the side of like too much with these. 'cause my brain's just like, I guess this is my one shot, one opportunity to have this conversation.

[01:02:36] And it really is a million conversations about this stuff that you're going to get to have and that our kids are also probably gonna notice our discomfort, which we also talk about in big kids. And I feel like that comes up here with the porn conversation that we can say, I know this might feel uncomfortable to talk about or, yes.

[01:03:00] Might feel like weird to talk about with me. It's okay if it feels uncomfortable. We can still have hard conversations even when it's uncomfortable. And that we aren't just saying like, oh, it's uncomfortable. Great. We won't have this convo. Think about that with like conflict too, that man, people are so conflict averse that when we get into a space where it's like this is gonna be uncomfortable, so many of us run for the hills, instead of being able to be in the discomfort of a conflict and say, yeah, this feels uncomfortable to talk about this, I would a million times over rather like sweep it under a rug and hope it just goes away.

[01:03:42] And it's okay to feel uncomfortable. 

[01:03:45] Rachel: Yeah. Sexual stuff is the hardest stuff for me to talk about. I grew up in purity culture and I have a lot of like internalized shame around sexuality that I'm hoping not to pass on to my kids. Um, but it's a topic that can be. Hard for me to, and I don't want my kids to be like, oh, mom is clearly like nervous and uncomfortable.

[01:04:12] I want them to feel like, yeah, it's not my favorite to talk about, but like, I'm still your safe place and I'm still the person who can handle whatever you bring to the table. 

[01:04:23] Alyssa: A hundred percent. Yeah. I love that. And for me as a sexual assault survivor who didn't have that safe space, that's where I'm like, yeah, I, this is hard and it's uncomfortable for me to talk about and to be in that space.

[01:04:37] And I don't want my kids to grow up in a world where they can't turn to me if something happens. And that requires them knowing I can have these conversations with them, even if it's uncomfortable, I'm able to do that. And I didn't know that as a kid. I didn't have a mom who talked to me about my body or about sex or about, definitely not about porn.

[01:04:57] And. I think about what a gift that would've been for younger Alyssa to know, oh, my mom can handle this even if it's uncomfortable or hard. This isn't too much for her to handle, for me to be able to share this with her and turn to her, and I wanna give my kids that gift. Yeah. That's my goal too. Thank goodness for Vanessa and Cara really leading us through this.

[01:05:20] Yeah. With the step by steps. Um Oh, this is such a gem. Yeah. Their book, this is So awkward, is so good. It's a staple on my shelf, and they have an incredible podcast as well that folks can check out, dive into. It's your guide for having these awkward, hard conversations about bodies and puberty and body changes and hormones and sex and porn and all that jazz that if you grew up in a household like mine, it was never modeled for you how to do this in an inappropriate way.

[01:05:55] And so. Thanks, Vanessa and Cara for wad into the discomfort with us, uh, and guiding us through it. Really. Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voices of your village.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content?

[01:06:19] Come join us at seed dot and do so. SEW take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag seed. And so to let me know your key takeaway, if you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.