The Transition to Two Kids
00:00:00 Alyssa
You're listening to Voices of Your Village, and in this episode, I got to hang out with our very own Rachel Lounder to chat about transitioning from one to two kids. We chatted about our own personal journeys and different things we hear from the outside world about, oh, what second kids are supposed to be like and all that jazz. We talked about triggers, things that worked for us, things that didn't, and we had very different experiences. My second born has similar sensory systems to her first born, and then vice versa for her second born has similar sensory systems to my first born. And so we got to chat about what that looked like and how it showed up and how it affected our transitions from one to two. I would love to hear your stories and what your transitions have looked like, or what you're thinking about, maybe you're pregnant or in the process of transitioning from one to two kids or adding a child to your family. What are you nervous about? What are you excited about? What questions do you have? Come on over to Instagram and let's chat. We have a post that'll go up for this episode and I wanna continue the conversation there. So come on over to seed.and.sew and let's chat. If you are finding value in this podcast, if it's helping you on your journey, please take a minute to rate and leave a review. I love reading the reviews. I love hearing like what resonates with you and how this is hitting home for you. And it's huge for the podcast world. It helps other folks find our podcast so that we can continue to serve more and more humans who would like to raise emotionally intelligent kids. All right, folks, let's dive in.
00:02:02 Alyssa
Hey there, I'm Alyssa Blask Campbell. I'm a mom with a master's degree in early childhood education and co -creator of the Collaborative Emotion Processing Method. I'm here to walk alongside you through the messy, vulnerable parts of being humans raising other humans, with deep thoughts and actionable tips. Let's dive in together.
00:02:23 Alyssa
I feel like today's such an appropriate topic for the transition to two kids because we just had like a really family -filled weekend where we weren't like, I mean, we had a snowstorm so we were like hunkered down. No one was running errands, no one was doing stuff and we had both adults and I was like, Oh, this is so nice. So nice when there's two adults.
00:02:56 Rachel
Yeah. That ratio matters for sure.
00:03:00 Alyssa
Oh, man. It's a game changer. Sometimes, um, one of my best friends will bring her two girls over just so that we can like even out some ratio.
00:03:09 Rachel
Yeah.
00:03:10 Alyssa
I'm like, I need some more adult hands on these kids and she needs to be able to tap out sometimes. Oh, the ratio matters.
00:03:18 Rachel
Yeah, it does.
00:03:18 Alyssa
I was actually, I was a little triggered by something this morning and I was like, I've been this person, which is probably why it's triggering. Where I was on Instagram and someone that I follow who has one kid and two adults most of the time and they went to like an airplane trip and she was, she's like very often like shares how they're doing what they're doing. And like, do you want to hear how like we had a smooth plane ride? And my like gut was like, yeah, you got two adults to one kid. That's how you had a smooth plane.
00:03:53 Rachel
Sure. Yeah.
00:03:54 Alyssa
Right. Like and I was like, Alyssa.
00:03:58 Rachel
But that reaction is so real. And I think like it's OK for somebody with one child to share about how their smooth plane ride went. And it's also OK for parents who are having a different adult to child ratio to be like, that's so great for you. And that's not my truth right now.
00:04:17 Alyssa
Yeah. I think that's it, right? It's like, that's not my truth. It's, I think the idea of like, if you do these things, then yours will be smooth too. And it's like, no, logistically no.
00:04:31 Rachel
And also, like, a child's nervous system is going to be a variable there too, for how smooth things go. So like beyond ratios, kids are different. And so you can't be like, do x, y, and z for a smooth plane ride because that might work for a kid with a certain nervous system and would be a disaster for a kid with a different nervous system.
00:04:52 Alyssa
100%. I think back to like if Mila had been my first, she's not sensory sensitive, if I would have shared all the things like look just do this and she'll sleep in a restaurant and she'll whatever and then had Sage who like never would do those things, he's sensory sensitive especially sound and light, and I would be like oh my gosh, Alyssa, you're the most annoying human because it was just like, that's who she is.
00:05:17 Rachel
Right. I always call Abel my humble pie child because Nora was not a sensory sensitive child. She would sleep on the go. A lot of things about our life stayed the same after we had Nora because her needs were very convenient to meet. If she like was able to nurse, like she was good to go for anything and she's still kind of like that very laid back. And then Abel had a ton of needs that were not convenient to meet and he couldn't be in a loud or bright environment ever, so yeah it was easy for me to be like oh yeah my baby sleeps anywhere my first child. And then I had Abel and I was like oh wow like this can be so different.
00:05:58 Alyssa
I think that's gonna be a fun part about chatting today because we have opposite in terms of like my first was sensory sensitive, your second was, my second isn't, your first wasn't, and just to see how that plays out. Also your first loves connection and like that fuels her and has been like chatty and engaged in her whole life, feel like she started talking and hasn't stopped, and I also feel like that's what we're walking into with Mila who just you hear her in team meetings-- just the chattiest human. Am I included? Just this weekend when we had our cozy family weekend, Zach and Sage were in the other room and I was just hanging out with Mila in the living room and all of a sudden she's just like throwing her head to the side and she's like getting fussy. I was like, what is going on? And then I picked her up and I walk in and I realized she just wanted to be where they were. She was like, I hear them. I don't feel included. What's going on? Like you are not even four months old.
00:06:58 Rachel
That social battery that like constantly needs that connection point. Like that's Nora for sure and I definitely see it with Mila.
00:07:06 Alyssa
Yeah it's and it'll be its own brand of exhausting. But in infancy I feel like it definitely has shifted to have her as our number two. So jazzed to chat specifically with you about this topic today.
00:07:21 Rachel
Yeah.
00:07:22 Alyssa
When you went from Nora, laid back, pretty, just not sensory sensitive, really is key for infancy in terms of like, how hard is this? And when you had her and then shifted and had Abes, Nora was what, four?
00:07:43 Rachel
Yeah.
00:07:44 Alyssa
What, I mean, right out the gates is a real rocky road for you. Looking back, what would you share with someone who's like in those shoes where their first was not sensory sensitive and their second is, and they go from like, yeah, I didn't have to really tweak things, slash, I thought I had this kind of figured out.
00:08:07 Rachel
Yeah, and I think I went into it being like, okay, I've done this before, everything should be fine. And I truly did not know that babies could come into the world and be so overwhelmed by things that we don't typically think of as stressors, such as a sibling talking, or a TV being played in the background, or the feeling of being strapped into a car seat. So all of these things that I was just like, yeah, it's fine. Like babies just sleep when they need to sleep and like, it'll be fine. And then he came out and he communicated right off the bat, like, no, these things are not fine for me.
00:08:55 Alyssa
This is not fine. This is not fine, mom.
00:08:58 Rachel
No, this is literally my nightmare. And I need help. And so I think like a couple of things, right? There was the feeling initially, like I was failing both kids because their needs felt like they were in opposition to each other, Nora needed connection. She needed reassurance that even though our family had changed, my love for her hadn't changed and wouldn't change, and that I was still available to connect with her. And Abel needed me to bring him into a dark, quiet space and nurse him and move his body so that he could fall asleep. And I couldn't do both of those things at once. So I think -
00:09:36 Alyssa
And Nora was in school or was she?
00:09:38 Rachel
No, Nora was home full time. That's not true. Nora was in a preschool program for two hours on Tuesday mornings and Thursday mornings.
00:09:49 Alyssa
So she was mostly home full time.
00:09:50 Rachel
She was mostly home and getting her there was a nightmare because Abel didn't tolerate the car.
00:09:55 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:09:55 Rachel
So I would say it was actually not helpful at all, maybe even the opposite, but she was already in it and I wanted to maintain that routine for her.
00:10:02 Alyssa
Sure.
00:10:04 Rachel
So I think that I wish that I had had the perspective to let go of some of the guilt that I felt in that season of our life. And also I truly felt like Abel was never going to be a happy baby. I also had postpartum depression, but I truly was like, this is my life now bouncing in a dark room and I can't help my baby. I don't, I can't soothe him until I learned more about his nervous system. So I think that perspective of like, when it's really hard in the beginning, it does change. There are ways to meet their needs and it's not gonna look like it did before, but it's totally possible. I think that's what I would have wanted to tell myself.
00:10:48 Alyssa
When you're in it, it does feel like this is forever. And what have I done to my family? And like, is this just my new normal where I'm now sitting in a dark room all the time and I don't get to go connect with that older human either, right? I found like just in the transition to two and I'll chat about how different mine has been simply from their sensory systems, that there were times where it was like, Mila needs me to stay alive. Like, she needs to eat, she needs to sleep. And he needs me to similarly, like, let him know, I'm still here, I still love you. Some things are different about our families, some things are the same. And there were times where I felt like all I wanna do is be able to meet her needs. Like, I wish someone else could meet this need for him, from me. And then there were times where vice versa, I was like, all I want to do is go meet his needs and I have to be here feeding her, right? Like just that pull between two kids that feels like, at least at the beginning, especially for me, it felt like I couldn't meet both. I had to pick like, whose needs am I going to meet now?
00:12:13 Rachel
Right. It's triage. Who needs me first?
00:12:15 Alyssa
And then myself is somewhere in there eventually, right? Like, oh man. Yeah, so that was definitely a feeling for me of like guilt that I wish I could just, and I'm still, we're still so early in it, but looking back to like that first month, especially, I wish I could just be like, yeah, Lyss, it's gonna get easier. Like he, we also had her and then he was two weeks later home for 17 days for like Christmas, New Year's, whatever.
00:12:51 Rachel
Right.
00:12:51 Alyssa
It was hard. He was out of his routine and all that jazz. Cause that's something I'm really grateful for as he has school. So I get these like little pockets where I have just time with her. And also he's had the routine and consistency of that staying the same as home changed.
00:13:12 Rachel
Yeah. Which is so rad for him.
00:13:14 Alyssa
So rad, he's a really routine human, like he, you know, there are some kids who if you tell them something too far in advance, they feel anxious and they can't stop thinking about it. And he's the opposite where like, once we know something, we will let him know because he will take it in. He'll think about it. He'll ask questions. He does not like to be caught off guard by something.
00:13:37 Rachel
Totally. I remember when I was there when Mila was born and Zach had put Sage to bed and we were kind of just like hanging out in the kitchen, looking at the monitor and I'm like, he's still singing in there. Like, when does he usually fall asleep? And Zach was like, yeah, he processes his day in bed. So he's thinking about and talking to himself about what he's experienced. And I've noticed that about Sage. He likes to have time to process and absorb. So it makes sense to me that school was so helpful for him.
00:14:16 Alyssa
Yeah, exactly. And to like know, okay, that's coming and I know what to expect from that.
00:14:21 Rachel
Correct.
00:14:22 Alyssa
That routine piece. That's, I think, when we're looking at that transition from one to two, being able to identify, we wrote about this in Tiny Humans, Big Emotions in the in Chapter 12, we talked about as much as possible, prepping older siblings for what's going to be the same, and what's going to be different, in whatever ways we can. Like here's what's going to be the same. We are all going to live in this house. You're going to sleep in your crib still, or like even little things like that that you can name that will be the same. And then because for them, especially if they're really young, they don't know what else is changing. Are you still going to be my adult? Are you going to take care of me? Am I going to be fed? Do I still have a place to sleep? Right? Like all those basic needs can feel like, are these in flux too?
00:15:16 Rachel
Right. Totally.
00:15:18 Alyssa
And so letting them know that, which we just like tried to, I mean, as much as possible, you don't know like who's this kid going to be and whatever. And I erred on the side of like letting him know as much in advance what would be different about ways that I could interact. Like, I am going to need to lay in bed for a little while. Actually, like three weeks before she was born, Sage and I both got COVID and we just like laid for a couple of days. We both felt like crap. And it was kind of helpful to pull that in. I was like, remember when we were feeling sick at Thanksgiving and we, our bodies didn't want to do anything, and they needed to rest to feel better. And we laid and we watched movies and he was like, yeah. And I was like, that might happen when Mila comes out, my body needs to heal and it's going to have to rest and lay. And here's what you can do. Like you can come lay, here's what you can do to interact with me and to interact with her.
00:16:20 Rachel
Right. And here's how you can expect to connect with me during this time.
00:16:25 Alyssa
Yeah. And like, I won't be able to lift you in your crib and do, um, bedtime, but I can read books with you and then Dada can take you in, you know, like finding little ways that I felt the, not just what is different and what he can't do or what I can't do, but also here's what I can do. And here's what's the same.
00:16:45 Rachel
Right. Yeah. And can you speak to like routine changes prior to the baby that can be helpful? So like for us, Cody took over Nora's bedtime while I was still pregnant.
00:16:59 Alyssa
Yeah, same. First of all, I just didn't want to do it, to be honest, at that point. Like, it's so uncomfortable, so huge. Like, can I put him in this crib without just, like, dropping him from the top down? But yeah, I had actually had asked Francesca, one of my friends here, I was like, if you, when you're going back, what is something that you would shift and do differently? And she was like, I wish that I would have stopped doing her oldest bedtime while I was pregnant, because all of a sudden it was like, oh, now we're making that change too. And I was like, cool, noted, can do as well. And so we started that at some point in pregnancy where Zach just like started to, I was still a part of it and around, but then I would step out and Zach would finish bedtime with Sagey. And yeah, it just became like their thing. So it's just one last thing that changes.
00:17:57 Rachel
Totally.
00:17:58 Alyssa
When she came. I found for myself, because I know he does so well with what to expect and the predictability, like when to start to prep him for the unknown of birth, where I was like, when do I start letting him know, knowing my body? I was like, probably not before 40 weeks, to be honest. But that like, yeah, it could happen at any point. And that he would just like on a whim, someone else would pick him up from school or he might be waking up in the middle of the night and going to Nana's or whatever. That part for me, I had a hard time figuring out like when's the right time to prep. I started doing it about a week before she was born, about my due date, where I was just like, hey bud. And I related it to him. I related so much to him. We still do of like, you know what, we were so excited to meet you. And we were wondering, when are you going to come out? When are you going to come out? And you waited a long time in my belly. And then one day, and then I would tell him like, the overview of the birth story, the water that you were living in, the balloon popped and it came out, and then you came out. And we were so excited and so surprised. And it felt like it happened very fast. And it was a surprise, just to let him know, like that's normal and this is how you came into the world. And so then for him, we would say the same thing of like, we're not sure when she's gonna come, buddy. If she comes at nighttime, here's what you can expect. Or if she comes while you're at school, Nana will come pick you up. Like just reviewed some different like options for him and said, every time we know something, we'll let you know.
00:19:41 Rachel
We took a similar approach with Nora. Yeah, so we had a plan for her of who was going to be taking care of her and we talked to her about that so that she would know like, hey, I'm going to work really hard to bring your brother into the world just like I did when I was bringing you into the world and I'm going to need dad's help. He's going to be helping me. And it was my friend Cailley was going to be in charge of her. And so we told her, Cailley, we'll come over and play with you and spend time with you, and mommy and daddy are gonna be working hard so that you can meet your baby brother. And that ended up not even being an issue because he was born when she was sleeping, but it gave her so much reassurance to know like, here's what's gonna happen. We don't know when, but we do know what and who are going to be here for you.
00:20:29 Alyssa
Yeah, and now in like this postpartum time, I guess we're forever postpartum, now that we have two kids, I feel like it has, I anticipate the hardest for us hasn't come yet, because right now she's not taking his toys. She's not in his space. I can set her down and go help him and not be like, oh, shoot, is she going to crawl up the stairs? And I, not that this is all like easy, but we were just chatting within our team the other day of like, oh, there's some folks who are like, oh yeah, the hardest was like once I had a crawler and a toddler or whatever, once they're moving and taking stuff. And I think there's different parts at different stages that are both hard and then they're both beautiful. Like right now, the hard is that she needs my body, especially because this human will not take a bottle. And so no one else can feed her. She needs my body, which means I can't like be away from her for very long. And I can't go have like a little one on one date with him. And I can’t, if for any like, not out of the house for any length of time at least. And so it's really for us just finding like, where can I get that time in? Like I'll put her down for a nap and then be like, okay, bud, we've got about 30 minutes. What do you want to do? Speaking of our human who doesn't take a bottle, get in here Beaners. Hi.
00:22:18 Rachel
Hi. Oh my goodness. Also when you're a linebacker, you need to eat a lot.
00:22:24 Alyssa
Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's the thing. I birthed a four month old. Yeah, but I like that for us is the hard right now is just how physically demanding it is to have a young baby and how isolating it is when it's only me that can feed her. Now the difference I think is the huge difference between first and second for me, he was my sensory sensitive kid. So he was the one that I was like in a dark room, bouncing on a ball to help get to sleep. And people would say like, oh, one of my triggers is around like, didn't you create this? Like, do you think that she's just like this because she has to be, and I'm like, nope, she's-- (Mila cries). You're hungry. I call her--
00:23:19 Rachel
You don't like that kind of talk, do you Mila?
00:23:20 Alyssa
Yeah. No, this is just who I am. Her ya go, Beans. But for him, I, if we were out in like a bright room or, when we were like, we, we didn't really go to restaurants because he would just cry and feel overwhelmed. He definitely wasn't going to sleep. He was screaming in the car. He was whatever. It's how he was born. Like he's still any sort of sound.
00:23:52 Rachel
I remember you texting me from a restaurant when he was like, maybe three months old. And you were like, he's so fussy. I'm trying to nurse him and he won't nurse even though he's hungry because he won't stop looking around all the noises happening around him. So I'm just here with my boob out and he's alternating between fussing and looking around, but not eating, which is what he needs right now. And I think that that is so classic for a sensory sensitive child who, when they're not able to filter out what's happening around them, sometimes they won't let us meet their needs because they're too overwhelmed.
00:24:28 Alyssa
Correct.
00:24:29 Rachel
And it is how they're born. I remember my dad calling me when Abel was like maybe 10 days old and I was bouncing on a yoga ball with Abel in the carrier and he was like, so what have you been up to today? And I'm like, well, I've been bouncing on this ball all day while Nora watches TV. And he's like, well, he's going to have to learn how to not be bounced on a yoga ball all day. And of course, my dad didn't mean anything by that, but it is that idea of like, you're creating this baby who needs to be bounced all day. Just teach him that you can't do that.
00:25:08 Alyssa
When you're already whelmed and like in your head, you're like, am I creating this? Even though you know I'm not. You're like, okay, yeah, should I just stop? And then you stop and you're like, nope, this is my nightmare, nothing can happen.
00:25:21 Rachel
Correct, it was like, yeah, let me try to teach him how to not need this. And then he would just scream his head off. And so, yeah, it is triggering when people are like, you're creating this. And it's like, no, this is their nervous system.
00:25:37 Alyssa
And then Little Miss Connection, here, as she can like hear us chatting, she just keeps stopping to nurse to smile at me.
00:25:44 Rachel
I want to be part of this. I love talking about that.
00:25:47 Alyssa
Oh, are we hanging out? Are people hanging out without me?
00:25:52 Rachel
And also she was born that way, craving social connection.
00:25:57 Alyssa
Exactly, and tolerating.
00:26:00 Rachel
Not needing a quiet room to sleep because she's totally comfortable in a room full of people talking. It's not draining her battery. She filters it out and goes to sleep.
00:26:09 Alyssa
Exactly. Exactly. And that, for me, like, it's easier to have your first be sensory -sensitive than it is to have your second or subsequent children be sensory -sensitive.
00:26:28 Rachel
I mean, I think it's easier for you now, right?
00:26:30 Alyssa
Correct.
00:26:30 Rachel
But like, when Mila is talking her head off to Sage all day long, and Sage is like, get me out of here.
00:26:38 Alyssa
There will be parts of it that's going to be hard at any stage anyway, but I'm just saying like in that immediate like transition, me not having to hide in a room like I did with him or even just, I mean it was just us at home and so we could control the sound and the environment and whatever in a way that two weeks after she was born it was Christmas and he got a chainsaw and a weed whacker, right? And they were just like in, we were in the house with a toy chainsaw and weed whacker and she was snoozing. And Zach and I were just like, what is this?
00:27:17 Rachel
Yeah. I mean, Cody and I also were like, what is this? But just like the opposite, you know, like Nora was just trying to have like a conversation with her parents and Abel was like, I can't take this. And Cody and I were like, wow. Okay. Yeah.
00:27:31 Alyssa
Yeah. And that will be it, right? Like for Sage will be the adjustment to adding sound from her. Even if we have people over for dinner, even if it's two people come join us for dinner, he's like, it's too loud in here. And so every time we add any additional noise, that's hard for his nervous system. So there's gonna be hard times around that. And for us, it's letting him know, it's right now a balance of accommodations, like headphones or things like that, and coping tools of if we know it's going to be a louder scenario or there's going to be additional noise, he has access to vestibular input, something to spin on, going upside down, et cetera, which is really what's regulating for him or a space to go where he can have quiet time.
00:28:23 Rachel
Yeah I love that.
00:28:23 Alyssa
He can pop up to your room.
00:28:25 Rachel
A key part of supporting both kids through adding to your family, both your newborn and your older child, is understanding how their nervous systems work. And we have a quiz, our sensory regulation quiz, and you can find it at seedquiz.com.
00:28:46 Alyssa
Love it
00:28:46 Rachel
And it, my memory, amazing, it can really give you some insightful information about how your child's nervous system works and give you strategies for what can help recharge their battery so that they can cope with the inevitable things in life that will be stressors for them.
00:29:08 Alyssa
Yeah. And that's just it. Like there will be stressors. And so it's what are the coping tools for each kid individually. And it was definitely helpful for us to know that about him before she came because we already then had some things on hand of like, okay, we know that anytime a baby cries, it's going to feel too loud for him.
00:29:31 Rachel
Right.
00:29:31 Alyssa
We were in North Carolina it was my mom and I in the car. We were driving to my brother's house. And so we're already on vacation, his routines off, yada, yada. We're in the car and she's screaming. It's an eight minute drive. She screamed the full eight minutes. He's sobbing, like sobbing. Make her stop! Mom, she needs to nurse. I was like, buddy, I nursed her before we got in the car. She's safe. And he's like, she's not safe right now. And I was like, Oh, I know she's crying. And it's so hard to hear someone that you love cry. And he was like, you need to pull over, you need to stop. And I think it's a combo of like, sure, it's hard to hear somebody that you love cry. But also, this is just really loud and my nervous system can't take it.
00:30:23 Rachel
Totally. It's like Nora, for instance, who has a totally different nervous system, was almost never bothered by Abel's crying, would just try to talk over it. And even still, we were at, we were hanging out with friends a couple months ago and one of my friends just had a baby and I was holding the baby and the baby was snoozing and there was like kid chaos everywhere. And Nora comes up to me and goes, mom, can Bridget hear? And I said, yeah, her hearing's fine. Why? And she goes, how is she sleeping through this? Because Nora's main experience of newborns are newborns that need to be in a dark, quiet space.
00:31:00 Alyssa
A white noise blasting space, really?
00:31:03 Rachel
Correct. Yes, a white noise dungeon. But yeah, it's so interesting to see how they cope with their siblings' needs based on their own nervous systems.
00:31:16 Alyssa
And that for me is like, also, what can my expectations be? Right? Like I can't expect him to just all of a sudden be okay with sound because it's coming from her.
00:31:30 Rachel
Right.
00:31:31 Alyssa
And so for myself, I'm like, all right, if she's going to make noise, spoiler alert, she is, she's human, then what is available for him and how do I prep him as much as possible for that? We do a lot of talking outside the moment about this, where I'll be like reading to him or playing with him or, you know, we're in the car and she's not screaming. And I will just say to him like, wow, you know what I noticed sometimes when Mila's talking, or when she's crying, it feels really loud and it can feel overwhelming. If you're feeling like it's so loud and it's overwhelming, you can say like, mama, I need a break that's too loud, or ask for your headphones, or you could take space in these, we like prep him for what he can do outside of the moment where he's in a space to store that. Another thing that we've been doing from the beginning that he just actually in the last two weeks started to really like hone the skill of is asking for attention where he would do things that are often annoying, right? Like he's throwing something he knows he's not supposed to throw or going up and like he had this blanket and he was spinning around with it near things that could get knocked down or break whatever that he knows he's not supposed to do and he's doing it. And so I would say like, Oh buddy, I can't let you do that. So -and -so can get hurt or this could happen. Are you looking for my attention? Would be my next, like immediately would stop him for what he was doing. And then say, are you looking for my attention? Are you feeling left out? And we did that over and over and over. And then in the calm moments would talk to him about how sometimes he has all of my attention. Sometimes he has some of my attention and Mila has some of my attention. And sometimes Mila has all of my attention. And that when he doesn't have all of my attention, if he's feeling left out or he wants my attention, he can say, mama, I want your attention. And then we can figure out a plan. It doesn't mean I can stop what I'm doing, but that we can figure out a plan. And we've been, honestly, she's three and a half months. We've been talking about it for about three and a half months of like what to say. And now he started to do it. I, we just this weekend, we're FaceTiming with my parents, and then he wandered off and was playing and I was still FaceTiming and I had Mila in my lap and they were like, you know, looking at her or whatever. And he popped in and said, Mama, I would like your attention. And I was like, yes, it's like starting to like stick. And he did it two more times that weekend. And I would validate it first. Like, oh, yeah, I'm paying attention to Mila and Grammy and Pa. You wanted my attention. Okay, let's figure out a plan. And we're often figuring out a plan together is what's most helpful with him. If he feels a part of it. So I would say like, right now, Grammy and Pa went to say hi to Mila and you want my attention. What should we do?
00:34:35 Rachel
Yeah
00:34:35 Alyssa
Bring him into problem solver mode. And he said, like, can we set a timer and then we'll be all done with FaceTime. These are things that like we've scaffolded in the past, like, where I've prepped him, like, here are some options. And so now he knows some things to pull from. And I was like, yeah, that's great. How long should we set the timer for? And these are things where like, I thought he'd be like one minute and he's like six minutes, right? So we get like even more time than I would have suggested if he's a part of the problem solving. But that language of wanting my attention, we just gave him really early. And again, it's been three and a half months of him not doing it and us still saying it before we started to see him start to do it.
00:35:17 Rachel
Totally. I mean, it's a long game for things like that. And we had kind of a similar situation with Nora when Abel was a newborn where I was in that white noise dungeon all the time. And it was like us three home alone a lot. And so I would like set her up with a TV show and inevitably, cause she was four and she had needs, she would come into the room and like wake up Abel and I would start over. And so--
00:35:41 Alyssa
And then you're frustrated inside. Just like, Oh man, I just spent so much time getting him down.
00:35:45 Rachel
Totally. I mean, I was so full of rage at my four -year -old who was doing nothing wrong. And then of course the guilt, right? It's this whole cascade of things. So outside of the moment.
00:35:57 Alyssa
Hang on. I have a thought process that happens in my head in those moments where I'm like, well, now you can't have my attention because you just woke up the baby. And if you would have just waited, like I could--just in case I'm not alone on that one, like all of a sudden it's her fault that she can't have my attention because she woke up the baby. Like that's the thought process that first comes into my head, that I have to work real hard to have not come out of my mouth.
00:36:23 Rachel
That still comes up for me when they're fighting. They're four and nine and I'm like, yeah, if you wouldn't antagonize him constantly and I wasn't constantly breaking up your fights, I'd have more time to spend with you. That's the first like bitter thought that comes out, which is really like a signal for me that I need to take some time to fill my own cup. But yeah, so we would have this pattern where I would be trying to get Abel to sleep, Nora would come in, whatever. So outside of the moment, when I wasn't angry slash guilty slash blood -boiling sweating with a crying baby on my body, when I had Cody home and I could hand him Abel and talk to Nora for a few minutes, I said like, honey, are you having a hard time being alone so much when I'm in the white noise dungeon, which is what we called it, with Abel? And she was like, yes, I'm lonely. Like this is a kid who needs connection and so there wasn't gonna be a way for me I just want this to be real for people who might be dealing with a baby who is hard to soothe It wasn't gonna be like, okay. Yeah, I'm just gonna set Able down and play with you. And it wasn't even really connection time but it was her feeling less lonely. I put my phone on silent. I downloaded a game for her. I bounced on a ball in the dark with Able facing away from the light from my cell phone because any light would disturb him, but she got to be physically in the same space as us while I met his needs. And that conversation needed to happen outside of the moment for both of us. And I think so much of this work of figuring out how to be there for your kids emotionally and helping them build the skills to ask for what they need, it doesn't happen in the heat of the moment. It happens when we're both calm.
00:38:10 Alyssa
Yeah, which can be hard to find.
00:38:12 Rachel
Yeah, it's like 30 seconds. You're like, alright, we've got five minutes before we have to start bedtime. Ready to chat?
00:38:19 Alyssa
Five minutes of calm we found today between the two of us. I also like, Zach's a big person where he's like, I don't want to ruin the good times with the hard conversations. That's like how it feels for him. And I was like, that I get where it's like, we're having such a nice time. I don't want to bring up this thing. It can feel hard to do that. But I love that example because yeah, the reality was you weren't going to be like, okay, yeah, I'll just set him down and come meet your needs. It was having to figure out how can I meet your needs in this moment? And one thing I've had to like really just accept is that when I am meeting one of their needs and I can't meet the other one's needs at that moment, someone's probably crying and that it's okay for that person to feel disappointed or frustrated or lonely. And it's not actually my goal that he never feels left out or that he never feels disappointed about this or he never feels frustrated. I want him to have tools to move through those feelings and her too. Like there are times where, yeah, she just the other day, he's on the toilet, he had pooped, he needs somebody to wipe him. She needs to eat and go to sleep. And I had been nursing. I started nursing her like in the bathroom, sitting on a little fold -up stool while he was pooping. And then he needed to be wiped. And I was like, I don't think I can nurse and wipe at the same time here, especially a sensory sensitive child. Anyone who's wiped a sensory sensitive kid knows that experience. And I was like, okay, she's gonna hate this. I'm gonna go set her down. She's crying the whole time he's being wiped and then he's crying. Why she's crying? Mama, she needs you. She needs you to nurse. And he doesn't want to be wiped. And like, everybody's now crying, but he has a need that needs to be met before I can meet hers. And those moments can feel so chaotic. I have to like prep myself. Like when I'm there and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have to go set her down. I'm like, give myself a pep talk of everyone's probably gonna lose their shit a little bit. And that's okay. We're gonna move through this, they're gonna have hard feelings, I'm gonna have hard feelings, and we're gonna move through this. But allowing that has been key for me, that it's those triggering emotions, right? Like for me, the feeling left out is really triggering. And so when he feels lonely or left out, I want to make it go away yesterday, right? Like I want it gone so fast, and I have to really check that of, it's also okay for him to feel left out.
00:41:03 Rachel
Yeah. There's no scenario in which our kids don't feel those things sometimes. And they will continue to feel them. And the want to make it go away is so real in the moment. But I like to remind myself and we talk about this a lot with the team, and you talk about it in the book, those moments are opportunities for growth and they're opportunities to start to build skills because right now they're feeling left out because our attention is pulled elsewhere. And later it's like they're feeling left out with a group of their peers and they're at school without us. And now what?
00:41:45 Alyssa
Yeah, what tools do they have? Do they feel like it's okay to feel that? Do they know what that feeling is?
00:41:51 Rachel
Correct.
00:41:51 Alyssa
And what to do with it. Yeah, they get to practice at home. But I just have to remind myself of that, especially when you're like in the throes of it and you're dysregulated from it. Oh yeah, that one's a hard one for me to allow. And I have four siblings and I'm not super close with any of them. And so for me, one of the things that feels important is to try and cultivate a sibling relationship where they can have a closeness if they want that. And I feel like doing it without having seen it and my husband's an only child. And so I try to be mindful too of not being like well I need to meet her needs so I can't meet yours and instead trying to say like yeah everyone has needs and sometimes I have to meet my own or sometimes I have to meet yours and she needs to wait and everybody feels left out sometimes. When I popped into the room when was playing with Zach yesterday or the other day and she was clearly like, where are they? I said out loud like, oh my goodness, she was fussing in there and she was looking around. I think she was feeling left out. She heard you playing and she was feeling left out. Now that we're in here and she can see you, she looks calm. So for him to see like everybody has needs and everybody feels these things. And I guess my fear is him being like, everything was fine and then she came along, you know?
00:43:26 Rachel
Totally. And I think like, it's so easy in the way that we approach those situations to accidentally kind of pit our kids against each other.
00:43:36 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:43:37 Rachel
We had a situation recently where we were at like a school function and Abel was coloring. Nora had just played a basketball game where she had made her first basket. And lots of people were coming over and congratulating her and she got nervous. So she picked up some markers and started coloring on Abel's paper. And he was already dysregulated by the noise and sounds that were going on during the basketball game. And he lost it and was like, she ruined it. I hate her, et cetera. And part of me was like, yeah, why did she feel the need to write on your paper? Like, she was getting all this great attention. Why did she need to bother him? And now I have to deal with it, you know, like those are the thoughts that come up. So I, you know, plus in public, you're under a microscope, able to meet Nora, like not my favorite scenario in front of all these other parents. So later on, I just was like, all right, we're just,
00:44:36 Alyssa
You're like, Hi, I work for Seed if you want any resources here.
00:44:39 Rachel
Yeah. Honestly. And they know that I do. So then it's this added layer of pressure, right? Even though I'm always like, yeah, there's no perfection. Like, but then when it's--
00:44:50 Alyssa
Living out the no perfection is different than saying it out loud.
00:44:53 Rachel
Oh, it's painful. So we exited, we got home. Later that night, I was talking to Abel before bed and I said, Hey bud, do you remember when Nora wrote on your paper and you got really mad at her? And he was like, yeah. I said, Nora was getting a lot of attention from grownups that she's not super comfortable with. She doesn't really know them. And I noticed that she was looking down at the ground and not really responding very much to them. And I think that she was nervous. And I'm wondering if she started coloring on your paper because she wasn't sure what else to do in that moment when she felt nervous. And he kind of just like absorbed that for a second. And he just kind of was like, okay, yeah. But she still wrote on my paper. I was like, totally. And I'm going to chat with her about that. But I wanted you to know that that's what was going on for Noni. And the next day while we were driving to school, Abel had a conversation with Nora about it. He brought it up to her. And he ended up telling her that he was sorry for telling her that he hated her. I didn't ask him to do that. I just wanted him to know what was happening for her.
00:46:13 Alyssa
It fostered empathy.
00:46:15 Rachel
Right. And it didn't happen that night, right? He just kind of looked at me and was like, but she still wrote on my paper,
00:46:21 Alyssa
I'm still pissed.
00:46:23 Rachel
Like, great. I'm sorry she was nervous, but that was my drawing. Right. But after he had a minute to process it, then he felt empathy for her.
00:46:33 Alyssa
Yeah.
00:46:34 Rachel
And she was like, yeah, I'm sorry that I wrote on your paper. And I said, no, next time you're feeling nervous, you can put your hand on my leg or grab my hand. And I, cause I was right there, and like, and I can help you when grownups that you don't really know are talking to you. Like, I'm happy to do that for you.
00:46:52 Alyssa
Yeah. I love it. It's such a rad example of, I think when we can help the siblings understand the why behind their sibling's behavior, rather than just seeing the behavior on the surface, it's a game changer. It requires us to slow down and see the why, right? That like, you could only have that conversation because you slowed down to see beyond the behavior. That initial thought of like, yeah, what are you doing, Nones? Why are you coloring his paper? That, we have to get past that to see, oh yeah, she's feeling overwhelmed or nervous with all this attention that she's getting right now. She doesn't know what to do with that. And so she went to a safe space, which is to be in her little family bubble and express there. And that's so huge. Like you were able to slow down and ask yourself those questions, like what's going on for her?
00:47:50 Rachel
Which like full disclosure, I disassociated in public and just got us home.
00:47:55 Alyssa
100%, that's my move.
00:47:57 Rachel
Right, I couldn't do it when I felt under the microscope, right? So I almost like ignored both of my kids and was just like, all right, it's time to go. I knew that anything else that came out in that moment wasn't what I wanted it to be.
00:48:08 Alyssa
Sure.
00:48:10 Rachel
I was feeling embarrassed. I was sweating. Get me out of here.
00:48:13 Alyssa
Sure.
00:48:15 Rachel
On the car ride home, turned up the music, pretty much ignored the kids, had a minute to think. And then after the kids ate and moved their bodies at home, I felt like, okay, Abel might be open to a conversation right now. But I had to disassociate. I was totally like coping mechanism, not coping strategy, wasn't feeling calm, just needed to get out. So I want to just say like, that's okay to do.
00:48:45 Alyssa
Very much so. That's my move. This is the thing, like I'm not a big yeller, but I will disconnect and disassociate. It was so interesting because when we were on vacation recently, there was like a really hard day one day. I think I had hard moments, but there was one day that was like, I need to just survive this. And of course it was the day that Zach had to leave to do an overnight for work somewhere while we were on vacation. And I'm with my parents and the kids.
00:49:15 Rachel
Obviously.
00:49:16 Alyssa
Obviously. And so like, there wasn't even for me, a, he's gonna be done with work and I'm gonna get like, nope, I'm on, I'm on through the night. It's, of course, the only night on vacation where Sage wakes up screaming an hour early because he had to go poop, which he never has to do. Right. All those things only happen--
00:49:34 Rachel
All the things.
00:49:34 Alyssa
Yeah. Um, but there was one day that was so hard and he was just full, like his body was out of control and he's like flailing, throwing things and hitting. And my dad stepped in to like, try and engage him and like go into distraction mode, which sometimes there's a time and a place for distraction, can love it to help kids calm and then be able to go into processing. Sage just wasn't in a space to receive it. And he like yelled and maybe hit my dad or threw something. And then I watched afterwards, the like disconnect, or what I at least perceived all my childhood as disconnect, as a, you need to come back feeling sorry before we'll reconnect child to adult, right? And I watched this play out where like Sage went through stuff through his emotion and then got to a point of regulation. He ate food, spoiler alert, he was hungry always. That's almost always for Sage, the root is I'm hungry. So he ate food and then he was able to move through it. And I kept seeing him try to like reconnect, sitting up next to my dad or like asking my dad to come do a thing. And my dad just being kind of cold. And I was able to like for the first time ever see it from also the adult perspective of I don't know if he knew what to do or how to reconnect in terms of like, I think he was trying to give us space so that I could just navigate this. And because I have sometimes snapped and been like, I've got this. And I think that from his perspective, that's what he was trying to do. But I saw it from my like Tiny Human perspective of the like, oh, he has disconnected and dissociated and the child is trying to reconnect and can't get in. And that's my go -to, I will disconnect, I'll dissociate. So I'm not yelling, I'm there, but I'm not really there. And you can feel that, right? Like I will be like cold or whatever, like Sage will come up and try to reconnect and inside I'm still annoyed at you. I don't want to reconnect with you. I want you to come up and say, I'm so sorry I did that mom. Here's what was going on for me. And then I'll reconnect. And I have to work really hard on that because it is for me, like your, your dissociation and then going into car to self -regulate so that you can initiate reconnection is what is always a work in progress for me, because I can dissociate and stay in a space where I want the kid to regulate to then come help me regulate. And I have to be super mindful of that. But dissociation and disconnection, boy, are those my go -to’s. And to see it play out with my dad, I was like, oh yeah, apple doesn't fall far from the tree. This was what was modeled.
00:52:36 Rachel
Sure. I also have that, more-so it's like an age bias for me, so I expected a lot from my oldest or I'm like, no, you need to come and like, tell me that you're sorry and acknowledge what just happened before I'm going to give you my time and connection. You know, it's this like, it's, right. It's this conditional thing. And it's also something that I experienced as a child. Um, my parents, I don't think had other tools and were kind of like, okay, well, what am I supposed to do with this kid who's being disrespectful? Like, why would I try to reconnect with them, right? Like now we have the brain science to understand why this happens. And, but yeah, that, that knee jerk reaction of like, yeah, no, I don't want to reconnect with you. Like get out of here. Beat it.
00:53:23 Alyssa
Beat it
00:53:25 Rachel
That totally comes up for me.
00:53:25 Alyssa
Yeah. Yeah. Same, same. But I think from like the general public, sometimes it can present as I'm calm.
00:53:34 Rachel
Oh yeah. I looked cool as a cucumber at that basketball game. And inside I was like, I hate this. And why do you guys have to do this in front of people? I hate it. But yeah, from the outside, I just looked like a mom who was taking her kids home for supper. You know?
00:53:53 Alyssa
They're having a hard time and I'm fine with it.
00:53:56 Rachel
I am fine. I have got everything together. We're going to go home and have a great family dinner.
00:54:01 Alyssa
So real. Oh, man. I am so jazzed that I get to hang out with you. Fun, exciting announcement with this episode is that Rach and I are going to be doing this, just hanging out and debriefing the episodes for every episode going forward. So you'll listen to the expert interview, and then after that, you get to hear Rach and I talk about like, what does this look like in real time? What does it look like when you apply this and dive into I would say the reality of it. Not just the expert piece, but the reality piece too, and we have kids spanning, right now you have nine, four or five? I'm gonna call him five, I'm sorry--
00:54:49 Rachel
I mean he's going to be five by the time this airs
00:54:53 Alyssa
Nine, five, three and a baby, so spanning some age groups here, and jazzed to get to dive in. I hope that folks who are in that transition of adding a sibling going from one to two can give themselves grace and time and know that every season is a different season. And so if this one feels hard right now, it's gonna shift every season to different season. And kids continue to build skills and we continue to build skills, and, you know, babies are going to change so fast that the hard of it will shift into different seasons.
00:55:36 Rachel
Yeah. I love that.
00:55:38 Alyssa
Thanks, Rach.
00:55:39 Rachel
Hey, thanks for having me. We're going to be doing a lot more of this.
00:55:42 Alyssa
I love it.
00:55:44 Alyssa
Thanks for tuning in to Voices of Your Village. Check out the transcript at voicesofyourvillage.com. Did you know that we have a special community over on Instagram hanging out every day with more free content? Come join us at @seed.and.sew, S -E -W. Take a screenshot of you tuning in, share it on the gram and tag @seed.and.sew to let me know your key takeaway. If you're digging this podcast, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We love collaborating with you to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
